New Rule Book

[TractorTed]

My Two Cents

I think that the best thing I've yet seen in the new rules is the division of the revolver group into two classes. Speedloaders are simply not competitive with moonclips, but I think that is where the split should have stopped. ESR now will allow Seven and eight shot revolvers, allowing some, at least, to gain an advantage by having makeup shots available. No equipment race here, is there Bill?

Other than the ESR class, and some rewording for clarification purposes, I don't see much I like in the new book.

Pg. 63 "There are two ways a shooter can be reclassified at a sanctioned match:"...."2. If the winner of a division and classification has a better score than 10-19 people in his classification AND the classification above his within the same division, the shooter will be promoted to the shooter’s next higher classification. If the 2nd place competitor of a division and classification has a better score than 20 - 29 shooters in his classification AND the classification above within the same division, the 2nd place competitor will be promoted, etc."

Huh? I totally do not understand the above paragraph. Could someone translate this for me? It seems to say the same thing as the paragraph that is above it in the book, only in a much more confusing way.

Weight restrictions are just plain stupid. It's already illegal to add weight to a gun, what makes restrictions necessary? It appears that they put the limits at points where they are going to outlaw several previously legal service guns. I know of at least a couple of people who just got pushed out for being "overweight". If the pistol fits in the damn box, or revolver has a 4" barrel, they should be allowed to play. This in my opinion is the only necessary measurement. Are we going to be required to weigh guns now? Can someone shave an ounce from the inside of their gun to "make weight"? Or do we just kick'em out for having a S&W 610, at 45oz., instead of a 625 at 42? "Sorry buddy, go spend another $700 on a new gun, then come back and play." No equipment race here, is there Bill?

Goodbye any holster made of plastic, kydex, etc. The new rule states:

"If you look through the belt slot area of the holster with it on

the belt/body, you should not be able to see any daylight. If

you can see through this belt tunnel area, the holster is not

approved." Plastic will not form to the body like leather. I just tried the Fobus holster I have for my Glocks, and my kydex GP-100 holster, neither will pass this test, I even put the Fobus on with the belt between the outside of the belt loop attachment and the inside of the gun pocket. All of my holsters are listed on the (previously) approved list. Between the three holsters I use, I'm out over $100! No equipment race here, is there Bill?

Many of my friends will have to replace previously legal mag pouches and speed loader/ moonclip holders because they no longer cover enough of the device they are meant to retain, even though they retain them the same way they did yesterday. No equipment race here, is there Bill?

They say that they want to avoid an equipment race, yet they change the rules to outlaw tens or hundreds of products that were perfectly legal previously. This makes no sense. I'm out over $100 because I now have to replace my plastic holsters with leather or (yuck) nylon. I'm sure it will be closer to $300 when I'm done because leather is expensive. Thanks again Bill, you can be sure none of the replacements (or anything) I (ever) buy will say "Wilson Combat" on them.

I only spent a little while going through the book, I'm sure there is a lot more, both good and bad, but what I've pointed out here may be enough for me to look seriously at forgoing IDPA matches and instead shooting USPSA matches, for the exact reason I did the opposite three years ago. I can't afford to shoot in a sport dominated by equipment races, whether the race is caused by needing competitive equipment, or by needing to replace my competition equipment every two years to continue to be allowed to compete. The equipment I have now is allowed in USPSA.

[roundgunner]

Any of you guys out there who are going to shoot at the S&W Winter Championships in a couple weeks don’t kid your self about the rules not taking effect for a year I e-mailed Harry Simonson to get the straight skinny and this is it.

Harry

I have not got any response from Berryville yet so I need to know are the S&W Winter Championships going to be done under the new rules or the old rules?

If we shoot with new rules I need to do some load development and I don’t have a 4 inch 625 to chrono.

Harry do you have a 165pf load for titegroup with a 200gr rn? My 2 inch is a bit fussy but it will qualify in the rule book and I have a versamax 2 iwb for it. Can I carry moon clips in my pocket like I would at the mall?

Is there a factory load out there that will make power and not beat my 625-10 to death?

Please respond with even a best guess.

If we show up with one of those awful cheating tricked out six shooten 610s in a Bladetech will we be able to shoot and just not have it count?

Harry’s response

Hi Warren,

Sorry, I do not have any guidance for you other than to say that the new rules are in effect immediately and we intend to conduct the match according to the rules. The SOs and MD will meet amongst ourselves to work out the details over the next few weeks.

Moon clips in the pocket are fine.

Regards,

Harry

So gentlemen its time to break out the wallet, buy some new stuff and thank God we live in America where we can go out and buy cool gun stuff.

I just don’t think I will buy anything that has WC stamped on it. I’m personally lucky I can shoot the match without spending a lot of money but it pisses me off that my 610 is a outlaw.

If anybody can get me on the right track for a 200gr 165pf with titegroup out of a 4 inch bbl that would be great. I don’t have a 4 inch 45 and if I try to get pf with a 2 inch bbl I will be doing +p+.45 pressure.

I will post this in a couple threads but any help would be great.

Shoot’em good

Warren

[Jeff22]

Because of the holster rule change, I now have a bunch of ky-tac and Comp-Tac

holsters that are apparently illegal . . . BUT WAIT! I can still use them if I go back to shooting in IPSC!

As a police officer, I used to always shoot IPSC matches with my duty rig and I will from now on shoot IDPA with my duty equipment, so the new holster rule is irritating but not terminal for me, but it affects a lot of other people and may have a negative effect on people who just got into the sport and aren't interested in changing all their equipment.

I predict a lot of IDPA shooters will go back to IPSC or try IPSC for the first time, and I suspect a lot of currently affiliated IDPA groups may drop their affiliation or run "outlaw" matches under the OLD holster rules.

I don't see why the rest of us should be inconvenienced because a few people who should know better "pushed the outside of the envelope" at the IDPA Nationals. Perhaps if we went back to the OLD holster rules and dropped the Nationals the sport might better serve the majority of its members . . . .

[Duane Thomas]

Oh yeah, that's gonna happen.

[snokid]

Duane

it's gonna it already has at my club.....

we'll see next weekend a bunch of match directors in my state are meeting to discuss this very topic....

I will keep you posted....

Bob

[DragonRider]

This is my first post on this forum, but have been a lurker for a while.

I have been shooting in IDPA Matches for 3 months. I have been carrying for over 3 years. Both of my holsters I use for everyday use for the last 2 years are now banned. So are the mag carriers I use. I have not made any changes to them as they work for me to carry concealed unknown to others for the last 2 years. I have been lucky enough to place 2nd for the last 2 months and 7th at my first match. Again using my carry gear.

I just last month bought all the gear for my daughter(10) to start shooting IDPA as a Christmas present. Holster is a no go. Her mag pouches are a no go. Her only option is now USPSA

This week I talked to two people who were going to be shooting our match this Wednesday. Both had bought a Uncle Mikes holster and mag pouch, they are now to be declared FTDR before they even fire a shot?

My local shooting range is becomming an IDPA club again after a 2 year break, where they have gone under new managment and have developed a good welcome to new shooters.

What is to happen to them and me?

John

[snokid]

Sounds like you need to buy some new equipement.....did you save your receipts?

Bob

[DragonRider]

I did, but now explaining to my daughter that she isn't going to be shooting matches till summer possibly won't go over to well.

As a former member of the Board of Directors for, PVS Swimming it is well written into our Bylaws what can happen, how new rules take effect, etc. There is also a section for appeals. Every year there is a convention of all the Local Swimming Committees to go over new rules, safety etc that are to affect USA Swimming . Seems that needs to happen with in IDPA.

Now back to watching and learning.

John

[Duane Thomas]

it's gonna it already has at my club.....

But then you won't be firing IDPA. You'll be firing MyDPA. Not that many of us go to the Nationals, but might knowingly running a local club by rules other than those in the Rule Book kind of like, y'know, screw any shooters who might want to go to the Nationals?

[snokid]

I agree with you, but I didn't make the call to change to idpa like at our club...

Bob

[kevin c]

it's gonna it already has at my club.....

But then you won't be firing IDPA. You'll be firing MyDPA. Not that many of us go to the Nationals, but might knowingly running a local club by rules other than those in the Rule Book kind of like, y'know, screw any shooters who might want to go to the Nationals?

A couple of the SO's at my club already have had this discussion. It came down to basically pointing out what is and isn't permissible for the new shooters (this is always the case, I suppose) and the veteran shooters who aren't up to speed on the new rules, and letting things slide on equipment for a match or two (perhaps longer, but that is still being felt out). State Championships and the Nationals (which few of our shooters aspire to), people will have been advised and will need to comply with HQ to play HQ's game.

[hkps1]

The new rules book just bit me. As a long time IPSC shooter I made the decision to buy a Glock 17 and all the necessary equipment to shoot IDPA. I am not a member, was just about to send a check and get ready to have some fun and make new friends in a, new to me, sport. Now everything I purchased is not allowed. Except the G17.

I guess my best option is to tear up the check and build my G17 to shoot in IPSC Standard Division. This is sad as I used their rulebook to make the decisions on equipment.

Well now I can shoot in two divisions in IPSC.

The reason I have not joined IDPA sooner was because I felt a little apprehension about a shooting sport being run (owned) by a single person. Funny how all ( sorry should had used the word most. See Duane's addition to my education below.) of Mr. Wilson’s Company’s equipment is legal. Guess my apprehensions were warranted.

This is sad as I really thought the concept of IDPA was sound., but the execution and timing of these new rules leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I really hope whoever is responsible for these rule changes see the error of their ways and address the equipment issues.

Until then my money will support the IPSC shooting base and vendors. Excluding Wilson Combat for now.

[Duane Thomas]

Funny how all Mr. Wilson’s Company’s equipment is legal.

That is simply not true. One of Wilson's most popular gun's, the Tactical Elite, is not legal for IDPA because it has a coned barrel without a bushing. One of his holsters is specifically mentioned as not legal in the Rule Book. I'm sure there are other examples. Please get your facts straight before you make untrue, and unfair, statement like that.

[hkps1]

Funny how all Mr. Wilson’s Company’s equipment is legal.

That is simply not true. One of Wilson's most popular gun's, the Tactical Elite, is not legal for IDPA because it has a coned barrel without a bushing. One of his holsters is specifically mentioned as not legal in the Rule Book. I'm sure there are other examples. Please get your facts straight before you make untrue, and unfair, statement like that.

Duane,

Please forgive my ignorance, as I am sure you are correct. I am sure Mr. Wilson and crew never intended to slant the rules of this business (IDPA) to help his bottom line in his other business Wilson Combat. I can't believe I was so ignorant of the facts.

Thank you for taking the time to inform me as to these facts. I shall now withdraw any criticisms of the new rulebook and the perceived intentions of Mr. Wilson.

I am just devastated that I was foolish enough to make such assumptions. I'm sure Wilson Combat has equipment that does not meet current rules. But I also think Wilson Combat has many that meet the new rules. This I'm sure is just due to very good market research and nothing to do with the new rules.

In the statement "Funny how all Mr. Wilson’s Company’s equipment is legal" I now see I should have used the word most and not the word all. I will edit my post immediately.

I ask forgiveness for my wayward opinions.

[snokid]

Even if he does make rules to suit his business it's ok because IDPA also is his business....

if you go to the bar you can't bring in your own beer, so what's wrong if Wilson decides that in order to play his game you have to use his stuff.....

seams pretty smart to me....

Bob

[shred]

Yeah.. before accusing Bill of creating IDPA in order to sell product, maybe he (and the others) created a shooting sport to fit what their idea of "practical" gear was. That they also sell what they think is "practical" gear doesn't seem to be any great coincidence to me.

[hkps1]

Yeah.. before accusing Bill of creating IDPA in order to sell product, maybe he (and the others) created a shooting sport to fit what their idea of "practical" gear was. That they also sell what they think is "practical" gear doesn't seem to be any great coincidence to me. 

I agree, it is just me and the sour grapes thing. Dec. 15 2004 I purchased all the needed equipment to start IDPA using the rulebook. Now I have a whole set up I can't use and now don't need.

And you are all right business is business and it does belong to the Wilsons. Only time and the paying customers will tell how it will play out.

I should have done more research on this whole IDPA shooting sport and I am by no means the only one that got hosed by the new rules or feel there is something wrong.

I might not even feel bad if I had gotten to lose just one match with the new setup though.

To set the record I never said "accusing Bill of creating IDPA in order to sell product." That story on the creation of IDPA is well known. I did point out the perceived, on my part, way the rules played out. And I am not alone on that thought. Just read on some of the other forums, and this one for that fact.

Now I said I'm sorry. Can we play nice now.

[firewalker]

OK I havent posted in a while, I have read the new rule book and it out lawed 2 of my guns . With posted weights of 43 oz. on smiths web site it pretty well rules out the N frame guns...At least my other N frame old style 625 mountain I can still shoot SSR with bunny fart loads in AR brass right (speed loaders) Then push 165 pf cdp loads and moon clip for ESR.

But then they did a weight limit to SSP and it killed my SIG 226st, But its still ok for esp right? So really all im out is $200 in holsters and buying a new SSP gun....To end this post on a postive note i think i will send my gamer 625 4" to clark and have it bored to 450 roland....(deer hunting is better than paper weights).

I love shooting IDPA, I wish that the BOD had not gutted SSR so radically

Frederick Haring

[Flexmoney]

Putting on my Administrator hat:

We need to keep away from making posts aimed at any particular individual or business. That is not what this forum is about.

So, please refrain from going after Bill W. on this forum.

Thanks.

[hkps1]

"Even if he does make rules to suit his business it's ok because IDPA also is his business....

if you go to the bar you can't bring in your own beer, so what's wrong if Wilson decides that in order to play his game you have to use his stuff.....

seams pretty smart to me...."

Yeah kinda like if you don't like my sand box, go home. Hey this is America and I think Mr. Wilson should be able to run his piece of the pie anyway he wishes. I just wonder, in the long run, how many people will keep coming to his table.

I really want to give the whole IDPA game a run. But as stated before now I can't unless I go repurchase all the stuff I purchased in December. Dang!!! Double Dang!!!

[warpspeed]

I just think that it is a shame that the rule book was forced down the throats of the members w/o a public comment period.

How hard would it have been to post a new rule book and say that there wil be a 30 day comment period and then 30 days after that publish a new rule book that takes effect in 30 days ( total of 90 days here ). This way, 11,000 + members would feel like they were a part of it.

IBTL

[jkelly]

I can't help but notice the prevalence of "But I bought all this gear specifically to shoot IDPA...." comments. If the gear had been bought with concealed carry - which was the intention of the sport - in mind, maybe it wouldn't be illegal now? Hmmm.---Duane Thomas

Ahhh, but I didn't plan on carrying four different guns.

I planned on shooting IDPA with the equipment they said was legal. The implication was the equipment was proper for concealed carry, because as you've said "...concealed carry - (which) was the intention of the the sport".

My real carry gun is not IDPA legal, but it's holster is. My back up (carry gun) is legal, but it's holster isn't, now.

So yes, you are correct, if we used our own judgement as opposed to that of the holster "experts" at HQ, then perhaps we might have legal holsters now.

As it is, I'll just put my illegal holsters (4 of them) with my old 5" moon clip gun. Hey, did I tell you what HQ had to say about my 5" moon clip gun a couple of years ago? Ohhh, never mind.

Respectfully,

jdkelly

[bigsapper]

I can't help but notice the prevalence of "But I bought all this gear specifically to shoot IDPA...." comments. If the gear had been bought with concealed carry - which was the intention of the sport - in mind, maybe it wouldn't be illegal now? Hmmm. There may be a very small, vocal group complaining about the new holster rules, but I would be absolutely shocked if the vast majority of IDPA shooter who run real world carry gear aren't, at the moment, going "Right on!" If not giggling.

I'm not.

I bought carry gear that was also IDPA legal. Now my mag carrirer is illegal.

My carry/IDPA portfolio...

Kimber CDP Compact

Milt Sparks IWB Versa-Max II

I shoot full-power Winchester Whitebox 230gr FMJ

So explain to me why my Kramer double mag pouch should be considered illegal "gamer" equipment...

[Duane Thomas]

Because it's mahogany. True high-speed operators go for basic black, baby!

(Don't tell me your pouch is really basic black and spoil my theory.)

[Northern Xtreme]

(Duane Thomas @ Jan 6 2005, 06:38 PM)

I can't help but notice the prevalence of "But I bought all this gear specifically to shoot IDPA...." comments. If the gear had been bought with concealed carry - which was the intention of the sport - in mind, maybe it wouldn't be illegal now? Hmmm. There may be a very small, vocal group complaining about the new holster rules, but I would be absolutely shocked if the vast majority of IDPA shooter who run real world carry gear aren't, at the moment, going "Right on!" If not giggling.

Most of the new shooters in my area have never shot any kind of match before and they simply brought the gear that they have been using for years to cary their guns concealed. Guess what its illegal, so the reality is if you want to shoot IDPA you have to buy gear that they tell you is suitable for concealed carry. I do not see how this is geared toward the new shooter.

IDPA is a game. I think the hardcore IDPA left wing would enjoy it better if they did away with the timers and just have the S.O. give you a score based on how tactically correct they felt you shot a stage. Then the combat shooting experts could pass on all kinds of constructive critisism to the uninformed general shooting public educating them how to better prepare for the real world combat situations they may face.

What IDPA is doing is cutting off its nose to spite its face.

A large percentage of the 11,000 IDPA shooters they boast about are also IPSC shooters. Many shoot both sports because they have been close enough in rules to be good shooting practice for eachother.

I dont like the if you dont like it you can leave attitude. You can change the rules anyway you want and the same shooters will always come out on top, because they are better. Its a game and competitors find ways to win and I'm not talking about cheating or gaming as many loosers like to throw around, they win through knowing the rules and practicing more than the next guy.

How many people actually carry a 4" eight shot revolver? Does anyone out there actually know someone who owns one? Why upset the thousands that already have and many that carry the 4" 45's and 40's?

I can live with the holster rules, although it makes it more pricey for new shooters to get into the game, but they should not allow eight shot revolvers and start an equipment race. Just seperate the revolvers by having ESR use moon clips and major power factor, and allow SSR to use speedloaders and pop guns even thought noone would ever carry their guns like that either.

Paul Mitchell