New Rule Book

[redmist10]

I fear that different MD's will have different interpretations of the holster rules. My Blade-Tech holster that I have been shooting my Glock from for several years has a tiny amount of light visible through the belt loop if you kneel down and look just right. Is this holster going to be OK some places and illegal others? Plus I think I will have to buy all new mag pouches. 

Plus the revolver rules are horrible. This is coming from a speedloader shooter. Does any body know of ANY speedloader holders that will be legal? 

marmot, I will probably see you at the range. 

Bill Nesbitt

Thanks for offering your opinions Bill. Some of us carry more weight in these debates than others. I know many of us in the revolver "community" value your opinions and comments.

Watch out for falling skies - marmot joined USPSA....

Also - Big Thanks to Joyce for coming in and discussing these issues. I don't agree with some of the things that IDPA HQ does or says but I certainly appreciate Joyce coming in and taking the abuse that is piled on Bill in these forums. I know I wouldn't want to step into that buzz saw!

...now let's work out some of these SSR issues

[MikeyG23]

One more thing for the record.

I don't visit any of the boards very often because of a couple reasons: first, I really don't have the time, and second, it becomes difficult on occassion to not be offended by some of the personal slams at Bill.

As to the changes in the holster/ammo carrier criteria, NONE of the changes were made for the profit of Wilson Combat.  They were made because too many shooters pushed the envelope on carry equipment.  We saw lots of equipment at the Nationals this year that barely held magazines or speedloaders in place.  We tried to make the rules easier for the Safety Officers to enforce.  It's tough for us to try to keep up with all the variations of holsters, mag pouches, etc. and that's our business.  It's impossible for most of the Safety Officers who have full time jobs not in the firearms industry.

And lastly, the reason that I don't visit the boards more is that I've seen posts that I've made show up on other boards with the context twisted.  I don't mind if people quote me (obviously they are going to no matter what), just please quote me entirely, not selectively.

Thanks,

Joyce

Joyce,

All well and good but how are holsters such as the Comp Tac Locking Paddle deemed as acceptable and listed on the approved holster list suddenly declared illegal ?

I understand your point about the envelope being pushed but I can't for the life of me figure out how a holster that was deemed acceptable 2 or 3 years ago becomes suddenly unacceptable. I know that people were modifying holsters and that created problems but for those of us who did not modify our holsters how is this fair ?

I'm speaking of Comp Tac since that is what I have used and would prefer to continue to use. If you will look at an earlier thread in this forum we had quite a discussion about the rumored holster rules and Greg from Comp Tac, in response to an e-mail from me, commented on the Locking Paddle and how every one ever made was formed on the same jig. Again, I understand people modified holsters outside what was stock and I have personally seen holsters that stuck out as far as IPSC race holsters but I still don't understand taking equipment that was acceptable for years and making it illegal.

I personally think that IDPA should revisit the new holster rules. If a holster was previously listed as approved then I believe that it is still just as suitable as it was on the day it was approved. I also understand that the intent was to eliminate the subjectivity of the whole issue but it appears that it is now more subjective than ever. What about leaving all the previously approved holsters approved ?

[Michael Brown]

Can somebody who knows advise what popularly made kydex holster and mag pouches will now be legal?

Anybody know?

I've read the rulebook and maybe its my lack of patience or discernment but I can't figure out what is legal other than the pictured holsters.

Michael Brown

[MikeyG23]

Can somebody who knows advise what popularly made kydex holster and mag pouches will now be legal?

Anybody know?

I've read the rulebook and maybe its my lack of patience or discernment but I can't figure out what is legal other than the pictured holsters.

Michael Brown

Good question !!

[Carmoney]

Dear Joyce and Bill:

Thank you, Joyce, for speaking up here on the forum.

I think it's extremely important for the IDPA folks to consult with several top revolver competitors before the final version of the rule book is printed up. As it stands right now, a vocal (but numerically tiny) minority of the revolver shooters participating in IDPA seem to have persuaded the organization to make dramatic changes to the equipment rules. These new rules, if they stand, are going to be financially detrimental to the vast majority of the revolver shooters in IDPA.

If you take a look at the little avatar photo to the left, you'll see a picture of me shooting an IDPA match in Ohio (closest place I could find that was shooting a classifer, and I needed a class to shoot the Missouri state match) last summer, with my S&W revolver. The picture's too small to see clearly, but according to the new rules, the holster is now illegal, the moonclip holders are now illegal, and the firearm/load combination is now illegal--for either SSR or ESR.

And all of those (except the ammo) are sometimes used by me for real-life concealed carry. This set-up is concealable and practical--not gamey at all.

With the new rules, the vast majority of IDPA revolver shooters are going to have to completely re-equip in order to stay legal. Again, much of the stuff many of us employ for routine concealed carry is now against the rules! This can't possibly be what IDPA intended, can it?

You candidly mention, Joyce, that you are not familiar with revolvers. Quite frankly, I think that is also true, to at least some extent, of nearly everyone at IDPA headquarters. Nothing wrong with that--Berryville is 1911 country--but revolvers really are a different sort of beast.

Joyce and Bill, please take the affirmative step of reaching out to consult with a cross-section of your revolver constituents, who thoroughly understand this stuff, instead of relying on the complaints of just a noisy few. Select a few good revolver shooters at random from your list of SSR competitors at the 2004 Nationals, maybe set up a conference call, and have a real conversation with them about these concerns. For the sake of the organization and the sport.

Sincerely,

Mike Carmoney

[redmist10]

8  or 6 rd in ESR ?

What's the big deal ??

Given an 18 rd string of fire - there both going to have to reload twice - right?

Mark

The big deal is that if you go to many majors or shoot a few standards you would know that 18 round stages are not always common. The big deal is that on a field course you have two extra rounds to pop off and make extra shots. The big deal is that ESR will be totally unbalanced in favor of the two extra rounds.

The big deal is that if you want to compete in CDP with a 15 round magazine you can't.....why? Because it isn't fair to the guys with only 8+1.

Simple math!

Consider two guys shooting revo - each makes two bad shots (hell make them misses!). You got excited and missed twice or had -3 pts on two targets during a course of fire. (-10 or -6 respectively = 5 seconds or 3 seconds for just that stage)

If an average person can rattle off two more shots in say 0.20 seconds per shot they have done so in 0.40 of a second (with the 8rd gun since you have two to play with)

....meanwhile the "average" 6-shot revolver guy can reload with or without moonclips in about 3-4 seconds.....slight benefit in time wouldn't you say? Not to mention made up points/time. Now multiply that by ten stages over a major match.

...you're probably right. I can make up those 50 or 30 seconds by utilizing cover more effectively!

[Mark Perez]

Can somebody who knows advise what popularly made kydex holster and mag pouches will now be legal?

Anybody know?

I've read the rulebook and maybe its my lack of patience or discernment but I can't figure out what is legal other than the pictured holsters.

Michael Brown

Eyeball measurement on my Bladetech and TacTools mag pouches look like they meet the 50% rule with a full size (G22) mag and more than acceptable with the G23 mag.

My BT holsters look like they meet the new guidelines too.

No doubt about the IWB holster from Threat Solutions - which is super fast as far as IWB goes.

fwiw ,

Mark

[Jim Watson]

"BTW, before you ask, the 12 month stability rule applies to guns only, not equipment."

Then why is it headed "Stability of Equipment Rules"?

I think the new rule book is a fine example of copying, editing, rearranging, and paraphrasing the old. And a little new material we are hashing over.

But surely two years (their count) for 74 pages would have left time for a reading of the Nationals line count to see what was being used and a look at a catalog how heavy one of those big old revolvers really is.

The must-have ESR gun will be the PC627 8-shot with barrel sawn to 4", underlug trimmed to make weight, and rechambered to 9x23 with clip clearance.

[redmist10]

The must-have ESR gun will be the PC627 8-shot with barrel sawn to 4", underlug trimmed to make weight, and rechambered to 9x23 with clip clearance.

YEP!

And anyone that shoots 12 majors in one year (yea, you read correctly, so what!) will have to have two of them because only an idiot would drive to Arkansas and have his gun break on stage two of the 2003 Nationals or his driving mate's gun die on stage four of the 2004 NY State Match without a replacement.....but you'll still have those two $800 custom 625 guns to fall back on and get whipped with if you just want to drive 12 hours for some "fun."

ESR

[Ted Murphy]

sorry

[Bruce]

Ted, with all due respect, to think that the new revolver rules will cause a jump in the number of revo shooters is, I think, not realistic. If that was to be the case I think we would have seen the revolvers come out in large numbers at some of the rural small IDPA matches (like those near me) where people always have been far more about "runnin' what they brung" (or had in the nightstand) than competing to advance up the ladder. Fact is, revos are and have been a niche item at the IDPA matches I have shot locally. A dedicated niche, to be sure, but the small number of shooters was always swamped by the the number of mag fed gunners.

About banning moon clips...if IDPA does in fact still stand for shooting what people carry, that would have made no sense.

About seeing holsters / mag pouches at Nationals that barely held the gun / ammo...I assume those that were seen in this condition were DQ'd? I mean, that was always against the rules, right?

Oh well, I will continue forward with the 625 and moonies, because I carry that setup and enjoy shooting it...wherever they stick me class-wise. I will wait to find out what holster and carriers will be allowed, sounds like that will have to be purchased if I want to shoot IDPA beyond the local level (where the fellas are pretty understanding so long as it is safe, and concealed).

[dpeters8445]

Chalk up another disapointed Comp Tac user. I now have two holsters and two mag pouches that will collect dust. That aint right. IDPA, please revisit the Comp Tac issue. We have a lot of money tied up in Gregs products.

Doug

[Matthew_Mink]

FWIW, I just double-checked all my gear for SSP and its still legal. Blade-Tech with Tek-Lok is still legal, holsters and mag carriers.

Oh, and one more thing. Ted's idea about putting 8 shot Revolvers in SSP is a smokin' good idea.

[Sgtsvi]

Sure looks like alot more $hooters are lurking in this thread. Anyone in Arkansas paying attention to the fact that almost all of us are in agreement for the first time in some time.

Dave

[hopalong]

Let me add to what I posted earlier....

The reason I (ME personally) shoot a moonclip gun is two fold....

1 Action:

I use the 610 or 646 S&W for IDPA, Smiths have a shorter trigger stroke and smooth up the best of any out there.

2 Brass:

I reload, and shoot way more local than major matches so I pick mine up and it is way easier to pick up 1 moon clip than 6 scattered pieces of brass.

the first reason is paramount, the second is just a little perk that comes with shooting the moon clips.

Hopalong.

For what it is worth...

I know IDPA is not USPSA and will never be.... that is why there is USPSA and IDPA.

But to Dramatically change a division the way Revolver division was changed there should have been some kind of poll taken from the people that make that division go.

Pretty simple, send questionaire to all people classified in Revolver then hash over the results and come up with a solution (to a really non-issue, speed loaders can be as quick as moonclips they just take practice too)

hopalong

[Ted Murphy]

Ted, with all due respect, to think that the new revolver rules will cause a jump in the number of revo shooters is, I think, not realistic. If that was to be the case I think we would have seen the revolvers come out in large numbers at some of the rural small IDPA matches (like those near me) where people always have been far more about "runnin' what they brung" (or had in the nightstand) than competing to advance up the ladder.

Bruce,

What I've seen, as MD of 2 local clubs is that most guys play the semi-autos and save up for what they consider to be a competitive SSR gun, which is ususally a 625 though sometimes a 610. Then they go and play SSR.

I have seen enough times where shooters are counselled NOT to shoot in SSR until they get the best gear possible. They usually follow that advice.

What I see as the benefit of the new SSR is that the price for a genuinely competitive SSR rig has now been cut by 1/3. I like that and I do think more guys will give it a shot.

I think ESR should not go with the 7 & 8 shooters, said it earlier. I'm amused by the higher power factor, though I do amit the 646 and 686 super shooters have gotten the shaft on that one.

Semi autos have 3 divisions that break apart the differences in those guns (more or less) I think it's good that the moonguns have their own niche.

If it wasn't for the power factor and the 7&8 shot addition, I would not understand why people would be upset. The pool for revolver shooters will be diluted, but I think in the end it will be fore the best.

Perhaps that is real positive thinking on my part, but I really belive in the two divisions.

Ted

[Planorick]

Dave, I agree. I guess my money will have to go to another shooting sport. I will continue to shoot with the local club only because I enjoy the people in our club but the major matches will be out this year. The sport has always claimed to be "shoot what you carry" then they tell us that what we carry is not legal to use. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

[Sgtsvi]

Rick,

Will we still be an IDPA affilliated club since we are using illegal equipment, or will we be just an indipendent club like Dallas Pistol club. They hold a defensive pistol match each month just for fun. Looks like we need to turn all the props at Dallas IDPA and Collin county into USPSA props.

Dave

[Nik Habicht]

Seems they levelled the playing field a bit more that's all. 

If they are truly going to allow up to 8-shot revolvers in ESR then I seriously question how level the playing field will be for guys using a 625.

Why trade one goofy situation for another? More divisions are not the answer either. They should have kept one division and allowed for machining cylinders to accept moon clips, IMHO.

Either way, I'll continue to shoot whatever I have on hand at any given time. I'll drag out the Model 10 or 686 as well as the 625's.

I hope you're right, Ted, and it brings out more shooters.

8 or 6 rd in ESR ?

What's the big deal ??

Given an 18 rd string of fire - there both going to have to reload twice - right?

Mark

Mark,

Course designed is three arrays: Two paper and two poppers in each array. Would you rather have a six shot or an eight shot gun?

[Bruce]

Ted, not to argue---but how many gun guys and gals have you ever known to stay out of something they wanted to shoot in because it cost an additional $150-$200 or so in *gun* money to buy? My wife wishes it was so easy

I am a pretty simple thinker, but it would seem that if IDPA wanted to create 2 revolver divisions, the easy way would have been to simply break it into 6 shooters and 6+ shooters.

[JD45]

While the new rules will hurt a lot of revolver shooters, I really believe that the new holster and mag pouch rules will affect an even greater number of members. The cheap Uncle Mikes kydex belt holsters (that work great) are now gone for good. The daylight in the belt loop you see was so you could have an option of two places to use differant width belts. I not even sure if my UM mag pouches are still legal.

I thought that the tac-load would finally be gone, and was hoping the speed reload would have a place somewhere. Wrong again.

[Jim Watson]

Speed loads no. There was no chance of that being allowed.

But the new edition says "Tactical Reloads and Reloads with Retention are interchangeable." That will help some.

[Carmoney]

FWIW, I just double-checked all my gear for SSP and its still legal. Blade-Tech with Tek-Lok is still legal, holsters and mag carriers.

Hey Matt:

I thought my Tek-lok Blade-Tech was going to be OK too, right up until I got to the part on p. 31 where it says, "must hold the firearm positioned on the body so an object of 3/4" width cannot pass between the shooter's body and the inside of the firearm when the shooter is standing straight and upright."

If I understand and am applying this rule correctly, my Blade-Tech (for revolver) certainly appears to fail the test. Maybe your rig holds your CZ pistol tucked in closer to your side and it's OK to use, but if you haven't checked to be sure, you might want to make sure before your next match.

It sounds like the 3/4" object rule is designed to force everyone to wear holsters that literally press the handle of the gun up against the body all the time--apparently because some people prefer this carry mode. Personally, I feel that the individual shooter should be permitted to decide (within reason) what is the proper balance between concealability and speed of presentation. I know for a fact that my Blade-Tech is reasonably concealable with a 4" L-frame, with a proper cover garment and a little common sense.

The arbitrary 3/4" object test is another very bad rule, in my opinion, and tactically unsound. You know what?--My right thumb is more than 3/4" thick, and I would very much like to be able to pass it between my body and the inside of my carry gun when I am standing straight and upright, in the unlikely event that I might ever need to draw the damn gun.

Unbelievable what a mess this new rulebook is.

Mike

[redmist10]

I'm interested to see if the "Enhanced Service Revolver Division" causes as much irritation as the conversion from 5" to 4" maximum barrel length.

2005 should be an interesting year.

Well, I think I answered my own question on that one, eh?

[Brian Gonsalves]

I'll throw my 2 cents into the mix here!

First the revolver mess: Where does My S&W 686 .38 Super fit in? Shooting in ESR with a 6-shot against the 8 rounders? Major type power factor out of a 4" .38 super revolver? My Bladetech holster shows a small gap if you get down on your knees and look closely! (Ok, that might be good depending what the RO looks like, sorry couldn't help myself)

Second the holster and mag pouch issue: The “Purpose” as stated in the Rulebook, “IDPA is a shooting sport that uses practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated “real world” self-defense scenarios.” Ok, I carry a gun everyday, in the “Real World” I’m not a Police Officer, I’m a General Manager of a Motorcycle Dealership. Due to our dress code at work, I cannot wear a vest or jacket so I have to settle for My Colt Agent in an ankle holster or My Seecamp in a Pocket holster (some days both). When not working I carry one of the following, Springfield TRP, Yost-Colt Commander, Browning Hi-Power or Officers model. When carrying the TRP, I use the same Comp-Tac Locking Paddle Holster that I use for IDPA matches! I’m not huge or wearing some tent like vest or jacket! So how much more “Real World” would headquarters like?

One last thing, I don’t believe that the Wilson’s motivation for the changes was monetary, though we must remember IDPA is a Business not an Organization. However when it comes to Holsters and Mag-pouches I have a few of each that I purchased from Wilson Combat. For the most part I’m very happy. However, I ordered one of the following: #OF1BKR15 Open Front Mag Pouch, Black Kydex, Right Hand, Fits 1911 GVT, etc from Wilson Combat as I feel for most “Real World” days One extra mag is enough. For those of you not familiar with these mag pouches they are split down the front, so you can pull the magazine up like most pouches or you can push forward on the magazine (much like a breakfront holster). I have knocked out a magazine with just a brush of my elbow. In all the matches I’ve used my Comp-Tac pouches, running, kneeling, picking up brass setting props, etc I’ve NEVER dropped a magazine!

Ok, I guess that’s a little more than 2 cents worth!

Rant over!