The importance of the prize table

[tacticalCOWBOY]

i just want to shoot and have a good time.

I just wish one day I'm good enough to win something off a prize table.

[davehorn]

Sure I shoot for fun, and would continue shooting 3 gun with or without prize tables. However, the prize table certainly ups the fun factor for me. It's an added incentive (stressor) to perform well. If I finish well enough to get something good, awesome. If not, I'm motivated to practice more, harder. For me it's a performance incentive, and part of the experience.

A great prize table does not make up for crummy stages, or a poorly run match though.

[GM2B]

Prize table matters to me if i have to travel across the country. I wont go unless there is a decent prize table or just a great vacation spot for my family to also enjoy. I cannot justify spending $1000.00+ per major 5+ times a year. I would shoot locals only and maybe one major a year if it werent for the tables. I love shooting I shoot 3 days a week but I wouldnt spend $1000 to travel to BFE just to shoot a different stage design.

Now with that said I plan to one day go to the World Shoot in Finland if Kurt Blesses me with his grace and that is a no table out of pocket match but certainly a great life experience! As long as I dont pull a Ty Gentry!

[Glock3422]

While there may be no direct cost to the competitors for the prizes, I would expect most organizers include the cost of the trip to Shot chasing prizes in the match expenses.

[Benelli Chick]

So, both JJ and I went to SHOT (me for the first time this year) Outside, $1000. (FYI we didn't charge it to the match as it was kind of a vacation for us...we had the match pay for SHOT entries, though!) But, say the match paid for the whole $1000. Regular size match, 250 shooters. I could lower the cost of the match by $4 each!

[Bryan 45]

Denise, I think what was mentioned was taking all the things that would be donated to the prize table, selling raffle tickets, and using all the proceeds from the raffle tickets to cover some match expenses.

[Benelli Chick]

Denise, I think what was mentioned was taking all the things that would be donated to the prize table, selling raffle tickets, and using all the proceeds from the raffle tickets to cover some match expenses.

If there's a raffle, I'd want it to go to some charity or something...well, maybe the match is the charity.

But waiting to see how many tickets you sell does not do much as far as knowing your budget unless you sell them first, which is just a different way of collecting payment.

I thought Glock 3422 was saying I would save a bunch of money by not going to SHOT to work on sponsors, so I could lower match cost to shooters! But if I still go to get items to raffle...

It's a conundrum!

[Langenator]

I've been to two major matches so far, and my total prize table take (I did DQ at the first one) is a small range bag, a TangoDown AR mag, and a TangoDown AR grip, so take my opinion for what it's worth...

I don't go to matches, big or small, to win something off the prize table. I know I'm not that good, and I don't have the time or the money to get that good, at least not until I retire. I'm going to have fun shooting, and maybe learn something from the guys and gals who shoot better than I do.

And I don't begrudge all those who win whatever prizes they get, either.

Now, do I think it would be cool to have one or two items that were raffled off? Sure, even if the tickets are sold, and not just every shooter gets a ticket, I'd probably buy a ticket or three. Or maybe you could have one item per division given out in a drawing, maybe give some incentive for folks to move out of Tac Optics into Heavy Metal Irons.

But at the end of the match, I've spent a couple of days at the range, having fun shooting and hanging out with cool people who have the same hobby I do. Which is a good day in my book.

[Moltke]

Prize tables with a 1-N finish are a direct reward for performance - which is generally a direct result of the amount of time / effort / money / practice you put into this sport. I highly appreciate all the trouble that MD's go through to establish and populate a prize table, and it's nice that some item can help offset the cost of a big expensive weekend if you sell it after the match but I'd still shoot championship level matches if prize tables weren't part of the 3 Gun equation anymore. They're just too fun to pass up!

[Glock3422]

Denise, I think what was mentioned was taking all the things that would be donated to the prize table, selling raffle tickets, and using all the proceeds from the raffle tickets to cover some match expenses.

If there's a raffle, I'd want it to go to some charity or something...well, maybe the match is the charity.

But waiting to see how many tickets you sell does not do much as far as knowing your budget unless you sell them first, which is just a different way of collecting payment.

I thought Glock 3422 was saying I would save a bunch of money by not going to SHOT to work on sponsors, so I could lower match cost to shooters! But if I still go to get items to raffle...

It's a conundrum!

You travel cheaper than the guys I know.

[Benelli Chick]

Denise, I think what was mentioned was taking all the things that would be donated to the prize table, selling raffle tickets, and using all the proceeds from the raffle tickets to cover some match expenses.

If there's a raffle, I'd want it to go to some charity or something...well, maybe the match is the charity.

But waiting to see how many tickets you sell does not do much as far as knowing your budget unless you sell them first, which is just a different way of collecting payment.

I thought Glock 3422 was saying I would save a bunch of money by not going to SHOT to work on sponsors, so I could lower match cost to shooters! But if I still go to get items to raffle...

It's a conundrum!

You travel cheaper than the guys I know.

We always drive! It's just 12 hrs from here!

[HeyChris]

I like prize tables based on performance. I think it would also be nice if sponsors could donate a high dollar item or two (rifle/pistol) that could be randomly won by participants.

We all spend time and money to attend major matches, but not all of us will ever make it in the top percentage to pull a major prize. If you had a chance to pull something cool, just by attending.. it would make things at least a little more exciting for all involved.

[Benelli Chick]

And that's why we have the NSSF Shooter's BBQ/Junior Benefit at Rocky Mountain 3-Gun World Championship!!! (Thanks so much to NSSF for stepping up to keep this going, by the way!)

Everyone can purchase doorprize tickets, and many of our sponsors donate great items for that...guns and stuff! Not sure what all we have for this year quite yet. Then the shooter's of Rocky Mountain donate the money to Junior Shooting groups! We contribute to the MGM Junior Camp and the NRA Whittington Center's own Adventure Camp!

I know some people that were very pleased with their surprises!

Then our prize table is for performance and there you go!

[Moltke]

Prize table by performance, separate raffles to buy in? Fair enough.

[StarvinPilgrim]

In my opinion if I wanted to win a raffle I'd go to a raffle. I shoot 3gun for the love of the sport, fun and fellowship. I do however shoot my best to place better each match. A large prize table with nice things on it gives a little something to strive for, more than a dime store trophy would.

[Blaise1]

To the OP

If you put on a one day 8 stage match with plaques and a random draw table it would have to be under a $100 entry and within 4hrs drive before I would even think about going. And, then I would consider who you as the MD were and whether or not I believed you could design stages worth me spending $500 and taking a day out of my weekend where I could be doing some real practice. From a consumers point of view it all boils down to the dollars and entry fees are honestly the cheapest thing about going to ANY match, large or small. So with two equal matches to choose from I'm going to the one with the better prize table.

[MarkCO]

I'd assume most people know who I am, however, I will state it before I give my opinion on prize tables.

I started shooting 3Gun because JJ and Denise coerced me into working RM3G for them. I loved the sport, the people and the challenges. I helped Denise with the prize table a few of those years, RO'd a few years and was an Area Director a few years. I am not a top shooter, but I usually finish in the top 20 to 30% in my division with a pretty good stage here and there. I run the Noveske match and the NSSF Rimfire Worlds. I also RO for some other major matches in a few different disciplines. I also own Carbon Arms with James and we sponsor both individual shooters, teams and matches.

As staff, there are far too many competitors that whine, don't reset, and then argue with staff on good calls. On a grumpy day, I would think about deleting some of them from the prize table. That said, most competitors are great, and offer incredible amounts of thanks.

As an MD, this is the hardest year ever to get prizes for the 4 matches I am working on. Most of that is due to 3GN sucking up phenomenal amounts of prizes. If ever there was a match that deserves the most support from sponsors, it would be the NSSF Rimfire Challenge, but even that is difficult (Tim Ubl from Taccom is doing the Prize Table BTW). The chance to be on TV is actually hurting the grassroots matches. I do not believe that is intentional, but it is a major factor.

As a competitor, I want a prize table if I am going to spend $250+ for a match fee. It does provide me the opportunity to try new things and in some cases offset the expense, or give product to new shooters in my local area with no $ spent by me. It is, in some part, a nice pat on the back for the accomplishment. I usually look for products I will use and avoid those I would sell. Random draw rewards mediocrity and personally, I want no part of that. I carefully look at who puts product on tables when I look at/walk them. When I buy gear, or recommend gear, it is only those companies who support the matches with actual product on the table. When I see 100 10% off certificates on a table from a "sponsor", I usually go the opposite way as far as support. I still have about 5 certificates that the "sponsors" never even responded to my redemption request.

As a sponsor who puts tens of thousands of dollars on prize tables every year, the ROI is varied. There are matches we do not sponsor because we just run out of our agreed upon "giveback", but there are others we do not sponsor for a variety of reasons. The matches that are a little smaller, and thank the sponsors on facebook, etc. gives us better exposure than some of the "majors". I absolutely hate to see our product go up for sale the day after a match, especially from a competitor who is "sponsored" by a company or companies that put not a thing on prize tables. I'd much prefer that any major match make cash payouts to the top 15 and then the donated prizes go to people who will use them rather than sell them. Even a Pro-Am where Pros pay $500 and shoot for cash while Ams walk prize tables. So far, we have put $10K of product on prize tables this year and I have received exactly 3 thank-yous. 2 were from current customers, 1 a relative newcomer who bought some additional gear. The shooters and teams we directly sponsor actually cost us less and the ROI is measurable for the most part. Funny thing is, we sponsor most of them because they are good people who have helped us or we are friends with them and they would use our product even if they had to buy it. If it was just $ and cents, in the vast majority of cases, we would not be sponsoring matches as the return just is not there.

Running the Noveske match, which the top shooters who have shot it say it was one of the better "shooting challenge" matches they have shot, it is glaringly obvious to me that prize tables and 3GN nation is a MUCH bigger draw than 3Gunners will admit.

I do not write any of this to put down anyone or any match. BUT, the vast majority of competitors have never ROd, RMd, MDd, Run a Prize Table, or sponsored a match. There are a lot of moving pieces, and hopefully this insight will help some to see alternative perspectives.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

For a State level match, moderate entry fee, plaques and cash payback. Easy!

I must admit after re reading all of this that club matches do indeed answer the O.P. and others. No prize table to worry about from any angle, very moderate cost. Depending on your area you can shoot 2-3 a month for less than the gas money to get to a "major", sleep in your own bed, and at the end of the month you have shot just as many stages as an expensive Major.

I personally like big prize tables as when I travel it makes the match seem more like a large gala event, instead of just driving for a long way to shoot stages I could and do set up for my local match. I appreciate each and every thing I win and always send thank yous.. did anyone send Seekins a thank you for the mag release button in your sign in Pac at SMM3-Gun? I sure did. and that wasn't even on the prise table, same with Kafka cool ties.

Stop agreeing with the things I'm saying before I say them!

Prize table at a big match is a must. It's a consolation prize and trophy rolled into one, after spending $200-300 entree fee driving 4-12 hours (or flying), shooting up $200-500 in ammo, and honestly working more than you shoot. For club level matches, I expect 1/4-1/2 the number of stages, just as much fun with a less competitive atmosphere, and no prize table....I drive up to 3-5 hours for club matches, but typically look to stay with friends when possible.

[Alaskapopo]

I'm not excited about prize tables. Look at the stuff people sell here that they don't need that they won on a prize table. This is where IDPA has their act together, the raffle off the prizes so even the back of the pack shooters have a chance. It's the back of the pack shooters that make up most of the shooters at a match AND buy most of the equipment.

The equipment manufacturers would loose about 2/3's of their sales if those that aren't the top tier shooters dropped the sport and went off and did something else.

3 day matches of 10-12 stages that go from 8 in the morning to 7 at night just gets to be too long sitting around for hours doing nothing. Most of the reason for this is poor stage planning and poorly trained S.O.'s. I feel if I plan a stage it should be well enough written out that if I was not able to be asked a single question a good, experienced S.O. could figure out how to set it up without ant input.

This goes for par times, if over half the average shooters time out (this is without a gun going down or other malfunction) the stages are too complicated or the par time too short. This is especially true when most of the real good shooter's time are within 10-15 seconds of the par time.

Opposing view coming in. While I like to have one or two prizes given out by random draw I think that it actually makes the good shooters not want to show up. You need to reward good shooting to keep that competition alive. To me random draw for the whole match is equivalent to giving out participation medals for kids in sports because we want them all to think they are winners even if they lost. Its too PC. Competition is a good thing. Getting beat and striving to do better the next time is also a good thing. I got beat pretty soundly by a buddy of mine this year in Texas and you can bet I will be working harder to give him more competition at the next match. I don't think you have to have a prize table but if you do have prizes they should be awarded to the winners not all given away by random draw.

Pat

[bishop414]

To echo many of the above posts, I like prize tables in order of finish. Makes you work for what you get. That being said, I also like when MD's pull 1 or 2 FFL items for special slots. Examples, 50% finisher, low Junior shooter, or the like. These are the paying customers and future of the sport.

Regarding money raffles, can take or leave them, just don't affect the prize table

[ziebart]

Thank you MarkCo for what you do for the sport and for the great post.

I have never MD'd but I think organizing a prize table would be my most dreaded tasks of running a major match. So I can understand someone wanting to exclude it from a match. If it is going to take energy away from stage design and execution and other areas of the match then yes it may need to be excluded.

[MarkCO]

You are welcome. However, while they may not have posted, there are a lot of people out there with similar thoughts, many of whom I have tried to emulate in one area or another. We will see how this all shakes out in the next few years I guess.

The one "prize" thing I failed to mention in post #42 was the JP Multi-Gun expert pin. I will never forget how I felt as I walked towards JP with his hand stretched out to shake mine and that pin in the other hand. To me, that was the most important object I ever got at a match, not for the tangible value, but for what it represented. It was validation as a 3Gunner, from a match and a man who have always held high standards and tried to do the best they could.

[Blaise1]

Mark, I know you can't hear me but I thank you every time I load my shotgun

[Brian Payne]

MarkCo

"The Pin" from JP has got to be the coolest thing I have ever won. Maybe I shouldn't say "won", maybe "earned", I guess that makes it more important in my eyes.

The next coolest prize in my memory was a Cold Steel throwing knife that I won at a Blue Ridge Mountain 3-gun match that got shut down due to dangerous weather conditions. The prize table was switched to random draw because there was no way to put an order of finish together. That knife still gives me hours of enjoyment throwing it into the old boxelder tree behind the house.

Best of all is the people at the matches, but the prize table by order of finish is still something that I look forward to.

[Tech32]

I can see both sides of the prize table argument. The first year I started 3gun and entered into a $300 match, the prize table was the only way I could justify the high entry fee. I heard it would be random draw as well. This got me excited as a new shooter. I would have just as good of a chance of wining a good prize as the pros. Then.....I never had my number called to the prize table. I checked the scoreboard and they had me DQ'd on a stage, and I never had any DQ's. Guess what, Dq's didn't get to walk the prize table. I talked to the MD and he let me pick through the leftovers nobody wanted.

I was hooked on 3gun immediately and bought different gear to help me get better, and practiced much more. Second year at same match comes around and I am the very last number called to walk the prize table. I'm thinkin you got to be effin' me! Leftovers again. I also finished much better.

So, now since I spent money on gear, practiced, practiced, practiced, and can place fairly decent. I am wanting the prize table to be on how you place, not random draw. I have tons of fun, and would still shoot without a prize table, but it is a good draw for new shooters, and it's fun to sit around with buddies after the match and see what kind of prizes they score!