Moly bullets tumbling

[facelessman]

I'll try to make this short... All out of a SP01 Shadow.

Bear Creek moly bullets. 125rn, 125tc, 135rn, 147tc. Loaded on a 550b, with all Dillon dies. Tried various OALs, flipped seating die insert from round to cone, tried belling the case wider, making an extra effort to ensure the bullet is straight in the seating die, and two different powders, N320 and Clays. They all tumble right out of the gun. Some are so bad that a slow aimed A zone shot is no guarantee even at 5 yards, and if it does the bullet goes through sideways. Zero consistency.

...and they foul the hell out of the barrel.

While continuing to experiment with some loads tonight, I had a bullet that went in really crooked and shaved some coating off the bullet, so I decided to pull it. That's when I noticed two gouges in the base of the bullet itself. Thinking it was from the crooked seating, I continued, and in checking the ammo, found a backwards primer (Dillon RF100). Pulled the bullet, and noticed the same exact gouge marks. Pulled two more just for the hell of it, all had the same gouge marks. No doubt, they ALL look like this, and I'd guess this is why they won't fly straight.

My question, is how do I stop this ? Different seating die ?

[Hi-Power Jack]

Have you checked the bullets to see if the gouge is there before you load them?

I may be wrong, but I don't think those gouges would cause the problems with

accuracy you describe - have you checked to see if you are over crimping?

The pulled bullets would have a crimp mark - I couldn't tell from your photos

whether there was a crimp mark - that could destroy your accuracy.

I have no idea why the gouge marks are there, though.

Are the bullets sized .356? (undersized bullets can cause those

types of problems.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Hi-Power Jack

[fishsticks]

I'm no expert, but it may be possible that they are undersized and that is causing the leading and tumbling. At one time I was contemplating using lead in a g17, and it was suggested that if you used slightly oversized lead bullets leading would be less.

I too would suggest looking at the bullets before loading. I can't think of how the seating process would groove them like that.

[wgj3]

The seat die itself wouldn't make the marks. It looks to me as though the bullets are tipping a bit as they go into the seat die and the case mouth is making the marks.

Post some more pics of the sides of the pulled bullets, belled cases and some pics of your complete rounds too.

Measure the diameter of the case mouth of your loaded rounds and post that too.

The "bell" on your cases should be just enough that a bullet should sit just inside the case mouth when under the seat die. I always keep my thumb and index finger on the bullet/case neck junction until they go into the seat die. Looks like maybe your bullets are tipping a bit on the way up.

[v1911]

I'll tell you what those marks are.

If you use a kinetic bullet puller, the bullet will bounce off the bottom and back up into the case mouth. That's where you're getting the 2 marks on the bullet base.

I've reloaded a number of bullets that I've pulled and had that happen to. That isn't the cause of your tumbling. The case neck will smooth out an imperfections along the side of that bevel when you seat the bullet.

[ChrisW]

I agree with v1911. I was getting ready to post the same thing. I have this happen with pulled bullets as well if they are lead. Plated can have a small mark on them but the lead can really dent good.

[dsa]

http://www.doublealpha.biz/bulletfeeder/powder-funnel

I used to shoot Bear Creeks in my CZ and had this same problem. The powder funnel linked above was recommended to me, I was told it would help the bullet sit more upright going into the seating die and would prevent shaving of the coating. I was also told to back off on the crimp to .378"-.379". Since making these changes I have not had any problems.

[razorfish]

I had the exact same gouges. As stated it's your bullet puller. Put a couple of cotton patches in the bottom of your kinetic bullet puller so the bullet is somewhat cushioned and the gouges will completely go away.

[facelessman]

I appreciate all of the replies!

The bullet puller, I'll be damned, lol. While I'm happy to know that's what's causing the marks, I'm back at square one with the problem.

I've actually tried .356 & .357 size bullets in the 125s, with no difference.

I've also tried opening up the bell a lot wider.

The last thing I played with was the crimp. My standard crimp is .378 for my jacketed match ammo. I had backed that out to .382 at the most with no change.

I've actually been curious about the powder funnel. Some brass it takes a good knock to push it out of the case...

[Cavy]

Why don't you try a different brand of bullets?

[Laughingdog]

Most issues I've had with tumbling bullets have been caused by overcrimping. the spec is 0.381 or 0.380, depending on the manual you're checking.

Check the bullet diameter, and then check your crimp.

[Hi-Power Jack]

What kind of velocity are you getting? Possible you're loading so hot they're

stripping - too hot for the bullets? Might try taking some grains of powder

out, and see if that's more accurate???

[adiksaputok]

What is your OAL?

i am using BC 147gr tc, i used to have keyhole problem until i load my bullets longer 1135 and that fix my tumbling/key holing problem.

[Boxerglocker]

I have loaded lots of BC 135s and 147s with WST 1.150 and 1.100 OALS. I would say give a generous flare, enough that when you place the bullet in the case the case rim is at midpoint between the bottom of the bullet and the lube ring. I taper crimp to .378-.389 and all my loads pass through a EGW and/or Dillon case gauge.

I load to velocities of 1000 FPS for the 135s and 920 for the 147s in my G34 and G17 with LWD barrels and my STI Spartan 9mm. Very clean and accurate loads with no tumbling issues.

[BeerBaron]

what OAL's have you tried?

tumbling in shadows that I've seen is usually down to OAL, crimp and occasionally it can actually be powder charge (too high or too low) or size of projectile.

clays and N320 are quite a fast powder. we use a powder here called AS30 which is great for light 9mm loads but it can cause some tumbling too.

but i'm leaning towards OAL at this point.

[SISIG]

I'm reloading the very same thing BC 135gr @ 1.135 with 4.5gr WSF have not chrono it yet but it felt good will do a final test in the morning. The mark is indeed from the puller.

I do noticed that BC has some imperfections but that won't affect accuracy.

[vetdocone]

I had the exact same gouges. As stated it's your bullet puller. Put a couple of cotton patches in the bottom of your kinetic bullet puller so the bullet is somewhat cushioned and the gouges will completely go away.

[vetdocone]

That is a lot of work to get issues.

[Mat Price]

Bbi I run them in a 9 major gun at over 1400 ft/sec and no tumbles

[bowenbuilt]

Looking at the pictures these bullets are way over crimped, you can actually see a reduction in diameter below the crimp line. When you do this only the base of the bullet engages the rifling firmly which causes the bullet to wobble down the barrel and then wobbles all the way to the target. You only need to straighten the bell on the case with the taper crimp die. Back of the crimp to the point you can still see a slight flare at the edge and try this again. If the tumbling stops you found your problem, if not you have eliminated this aspect and can then go on to the other suggestions.

[facelessman]

_{OAL, I've tried 1.10 up to 1.15. Neither of my Shadows like longer rounds so I've kept these short.}

_{Crimp. I've tried .378 up to .382. No difference. I'll try taking this out a bit bigger.}

_{I haven't chrono'd in a while, but the 147s were 900'ish, and the 125s were 1020'ish.}

_{On the overcrimp... TWO of the bullets in that picture were NOT crimped at all. There were seated in the bell'd case, then pulled. This was to see what was causing the gouges (before I came on here and found out what). Which makes me wonder about the powder funnel.}

Edited March 28, 2014 by facelessman

[AdamM]

Are you using the Dillion crimp or are you using something like the Lee Factory Crimp die? The reason I ask is the using the FCD, it will actually swage your bullet down to something like 0.355 and will cause these issues. As some asked earlier, have you measured the pulled bullets *after* they went thru the final crimping? Measure them and let us know?

[phidelt208]

I'll tell you what those marks are.

If you use a kinetic bullet puller, the bullet will bounce off the bottom and back up into the case mouth. That's where you're getting the 2 marks on the bullet base.

I've reloaded a number of bullets that I've pulled and had that happen to. That isn't the cause of your tumbling. The case neck will smooth out an imperfections along the side of that bevel when you seat the bullet.

100 on this one, I've seen it many times myself. V1911 is spot on.

[facelessman]

So the gouging marks are definitely from the bullet puller, and not part of my problem.

You can see the case mouth belling in the one picture.

All Dillon dies.

OALs I've tried are 1.10 through 1.15 in .01 increments. I just tried some at 1.09 with no change.

I just got a sample of BBI 125s just to see...

[facelessman]

FWIW.... my jacketed loads have always been super accurate and reliable through the same guns. Same press and dies. *shrug*