SSGJohnV Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Had a local match last weekend. Finished the stage and was pretty happy with my time and hits...then got told I had a pro for cover...which neither the RO or scorekeeper saw...it was a RO qualified person that was watching. The RO took his word on it and agreed and I got the pro. I raised a little bit of a stink about it, but not too much considering it was a local match and I know these guys pretty well. My question is, is it legal for someone who is NOT the RO or scorekeeper of that shooter to make a cover procedural call? The guy that made the call is known for his...vigorous enforcement of the rules in IDPA. Is there a rule somewhere that decides this? Thanks. -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Be honest, did use break cover? Was you big toe out, even a little? I find most RO's at club matches I go to don't call cover much. That doesn't mean the cover nazi is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSGJohnV Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share Posted March 5, 2014 I don't know if I was or not. It was pretty ambiguous cover to begin with (curtain with table in front of it) and I was definitely leaning way out to see and shoot the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 It's unusual for sure. Unless the SO has asked someone to assist ala "Stand here, look for cover down this line for me" I'd expect the squad to keep their fat mouths shut. If I was the SO and someone from the squad said a cover PE was needed, and me and the SK didn't see it, I wouldn't give it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdphotoguy Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) If it's not a safety violation, I think the dude should have kept his mouth shut. As of yet, can't find a specific rule, but I can't imagine anyone other then the SOs in charge can call anything. Edited March 5, 2014 by jdphotoguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSGJohnV Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share Posted March 5, 2014 A lot of us were thinking that. The RO and this guy are two of the main guys that run IDPA here, so they trust each others calls. I brought up that I don't think it's his call (peanut gallery) and the RO said he was giving me the pro. Then I got a pro for moving before I fully stored a mag on a tac reload...even though the mag was empty. Needless to say I was not happy with IDPA that day. Just trying to establish if there is a rule somewhere that decides who can make cover calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) Dude, on any reload behind cover, the reload is OVER soon as the new mag is seated and the slide is forward. The partial mag need not be stowed until you fire your next shot. Yeah, you got hosed twice. Edited March 5, 2014 by Steve Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Do it back to him. Very loudly yell "COVER" while he is shooting and them ask him how it feels. And to back it up, Steve is right. The reload is done when the mag is fully seated and the slide forward. Just have the other mag stowed before you shoot again. A la what everyone does on stage three, string two of the classifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Sills Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 In the match administration handbook (bottom of the IDPA rulebook), you should look at 2.4 2.4. IDPA Match Official (Joint Safety Officer Responsibilities) 2.4.4. Know and consistently enforce the IDPA rules to ensure that the match is conducted in a fair and impartial manner 2.4.4.4. If the SO has a reasonable doubt, the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. 2.4.4.5. Call all penalties correctly and consistently. 2.4.4.6. The SO team (PSO and SSO) should assess any penalties and inform the shooter of the penalties incurred. Should any additional consultation or appeal be required, the SO team will confer only with other designated match officials concerning the behavior of any shooter and any scoring or penalty decisions to be rendered. If dude was not part of the SO team (PSO and SSO) he should not be giving out penalties. What I do in this situation, if I see it and view it as a teaching opportunity for an SO, I tell them afterwards that maybe they should do something different to try to see cover calls better, etc. Same goes with the shooter. (All without being an a-hole of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSGJohnV Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 Good to know. To clarify, I was behind cover, did a tac reload, dropped the (empty) mag on accident and picked up while moving to the next position, stowed it before my next shot, but I was moving out of cover during stowage. Was I still good? And I will be bringing up rule 2.4 to the RO's next time. They understood my argument but it was over with at that point...ended up those two pros would have made me finish 2nd I believe. Not sure, but it definitely mattered. Thanks for the rule sleuthing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 And this is why I now carry a printed copy of the rule book in my range bag with the most common screw ups highlighted so I can set people straight right then. No opinion or "I think so...", but the hard facts of a rule book. If there are gonna be rules, know 'em and follow 'em. If not, be prepared for me to teach you them. Which is fine, 'cause sometimes I'm wrong to and then I get to be the one shown the right way. Still, I think you should yell "cover" at him while he is shooting a few times. Payback's a med evac, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I had a pretty well known shooter do that to me at a local match a year or so ago. He wasn't even in my squad just the one that showed up as we were finishing the stage. SO didn't see something or call a PE (I can't remember what it was but it wasn't a cover call) but the other shooter said I did. SO said......"oh, add a procedural then". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 When i SO, its either me or the other SO that can make calls. If i did not see it happen and he did not see it happen, it did not happen. If i am assisting, i always confer with the PSO and let him make the final call. Never had any issues doing it this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) The SO, and ASO's working the stage and MD should be the only ones making a call. You can have a squad full of trained SO's, that doesnt mean they should be making calls the SO missed. I say MD because they either designed the stage or know how it is to be shot. If they see a PE, I feel it would be ok to adv the SO, but let tjhe SO make the final call. Edited March 6, 2014 by Sac Law Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Good to know. To clarify, I was behind cover, did a tac reload, dropped the (empty) mag on accident and picked up while moving to the next position, stowed it before my next shot, but I was moving out of cover during stowage. Was I still good? Yep, you were good. The reload was complete, and you just had to stow the mag before your next shot. As Steve said, you got hosed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Sills Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 The SO, and ASO's working the stage and MD should be the only ones making a call. You can have a squad full of trained SO's, that doesnt mean they should be making calls the SO missed. I say MD because they either designed the stage or know how it is to be shot. If they see a PE, I feel it would be ok to adv the SO, but let tjhe SO make the final call. +1 As an MD, I've told SO's right after a shooter finished that they broke the COF. If the SO remembers it, I let them give a PE. If they don't, I tell them to look out for it. Never to screw a shooter, but the next person who messes it up *will* complain that "so and so didn't get a procedural", so I at least try to make a good attempt at consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSGJohnV Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 I'm bringing my iPad next time with the IDPA rule book on it. Have to vigorously enforce those rules, you know ;-) Thanks for the tips and rule sleuthing, gents. I appreciate it. -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig N Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I'd have showed my a$$ over a PE from the peanut gallery and people would have thought my stutter was miraculously healed. I'll take a PE I have earned and that an SO sees. It's a game and like wrestling if the ref don't see it, it don't count. We had a newish guy shooting last weekend and he stuck his hands and gun through the window. The MD was running the timer and no one said a thing. We all saw it and everyone kept their mouth shut. It wasn't our place to call PEs. OF course when he returned to the squad we nicely educated him. I told him if I had been SO I'd have called him on the PE. So he learned his lesson for free, we will see next month if it stuck without the 3 seconds to his time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Sills Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 We had a newish guy shooting last weekend and he stuck his hands and gun through the window. The MD was running the timer and no one said a thing. We all saw it and everyone kept their mouth shut. It wasn't our place to call PEs. OF course when he returned to the squad we nicely educated him. I told him if I had been SO I'd have called him on the PE. So he learned his lesson for free, we will see next month if it stuck without the 3 seconds to his time. Sounds like a bad example, I don't know of any "you can't put your hands and gun through a window" rule in IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig N Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I guess I get to go searching and see if the "no hands through the window" is just a tribalism or not. They always told us to make sure you stand back and not let the gun go through the portal. Or have I confused IDPA and USPSA rules again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) Threads like these make me realize more and more every day how much simpler and more enjoyable my time is on the range when I am by myself. Just me, the timer, the gun, ammo, and my targets. It's peaceful and hassle free. It's like a little slice of heaven. Edited March 6, 2014 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disxbxjun Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 During a course of fire the only people you need to listen to is the SO team. At the club I shoot with if someone in the gallery yells "cover" and the shooter reacts by pausing to adjust position, if the command wasn't given by the SO team we let them reshoot. Local matches should still maintain quality in the way it is ran just like major matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Not only should the shooter get a reshoot, but the heckler in the peanut gallery should get DQ'ed for unsportsmanlike conduct, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSGJohnV Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 He brought it up after ULASC. The RO took his word for it and gave me the PE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I guess I get to go searching and see if the "no hands through the window" is just a tribalism or not. They always told us to make sure you stand back and not let the gun go through the portal. Or have I confused IDPA and USPSA rules again? It's not a USPSA rule. I don't know if it's an IDPA rule unless you are exposing yourself. It is, however, usually the fastest and safest way to shoot depending on how well you can see the targets without getting into the port. When you spend time positioning yourself and sticking the gun into the port it will take time to remove yourself and the gun from the port as well. Also, sometimes shooters finished shooting in a port, turn to move, and hit their guns on the side of the port potentially causing safety issues. So, stay out if you can for speeds sake but if you have to or want to go in deeper then there is no USPSA rule against that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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