Non-RO Cover Procedural

[chuck s]

It certainly is not an IDPA rule either. As long as cover is maintained you can go as deep into a port as you care to, not advisable in most cases, but legal.

[Steve Koski]

I guess I get to go searching and see if the "no hands through the window" is just a tribalism or not. They always told us to make sure you stand back and not let the gun go through the portal.

That's the local tribe doing it's thing, not an IDPA rule.

[Jim Watson]

I guess I get to go searching and see if the "no hands through the window" is just a tribalism or not. They always told us to make sure you stand back and not let the gun go through the portal.

Or have I confused IDPA and USPSA rules again?

Confusing Academy tactics with match rules again.

[Vanniek71]

Just a question for the OP, if your mag was empty why were you stowing it?

Edited March 7, 2014 by Vanniek71

[Vanniek71]

Nm just re read your post, assuming you still had a round in the chamber?

[Sarge]

I guess I get to go searching and see if the "no hands through the window" is just a tribalism or not. They always told us to make sure you stand back and not let the gun go through the portal.

Or have I confused IDPA and USPSA rules again?

It's not a USPSA rule. I don't know if it's an IDPA rule unless you are exposing yourself.

I think exposing yourself in either sport is frowned upon! I'm glad to read that IDPA has some of the same peanut gallery problems as my game. I really blame the actual SO though. If he didn't see it it didn't happen.

[Chills1994]

He brought it up after ULASC. The RO took his word for it and gave me the PE.

That sounds like something a guy who is shooting in the same division and class as you, would do.

Was he reliving his glory days as the high school hall pass monitor?

Edited March 7, 2014 by Chills1994

[awfaxis]

The topic of stowing an EMPTY magazine has me confused. If the magazine is EMPTY, why stow it?

I looked at the rules, and cannot find anything. Rule 3.11.2 seems to say no penalty would apply unless the magazine was LOADED. What am I missing?

Edited March 7, 2014 by awfaxis

[SSGJohnV]

Purely local match. Like, 15-20 shooters max. Indoor range with one stage at a time.

The RO, we'll call him A, and the peanut gallery, we'll call him M, basically run the IDPA matches and A runs the USPSA matches with M's help. We compete amongst ourselves and don't even separate ourselves on the standings by CDP or SSP or whatever. We mostly treat it as extra trigger time.

What I'm getting at is A and M know each other pretty well and even if A thought it was wrong probably wasn't going to call M out on it in front of all of us. I'm going to have a private discussion with M and A before the next match. Hell, M lives like. 2 blocks from me so I might just stop by and talk to him about it. Trying to keep it all civil while following the rules and all.

[BillR1]

The topic of stowing an EMPTY magazine has me confused. If the magazine is EMPTY, why stow it?

I looked at the rules, and cannot find anything. Rule 3.11.2 seems to say no penalty would apply unless the magazine was LOADED. What am I missing?

3.7.2 describes a Loaded Chamber Reload. If the gun is not empty (slide lock), the mag must be retained.

[awfaxis]

This rule 3.7.2 (quoted in whole below), says LIVE ammunition or ammunition carrier. Also, this is a description of a process, not a specification for penalty.

3.11.2 is the defined application of the penalty, and in this context, LIVE or LOADED has the same meaning. I still believe it is NOT a penalty if there is no LIVE ammunition or LOADED magazine left on the ground.

3.7.2. Loaded Cylinder/Chamber Reload (also known as a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention)

Loaded Cylinder/Chamber Reload – recharge the firearm when it is partially loaded while retaining any live ammunition or ammunition carrier.

[BillR1]

This rule 3.7.2 (quoted in whole below), says LIVE ammunition or ammunition carrier. Also, this is a description of a process, not a specification for penalty.

3.11.2 is the defined application of the penalty, and in this context, LIVE or LOADED has the same meaning. I still believe it is NOT a penalty if there is no LIVE ammunition or LOADED magazine left on the ground.

3.7.2. Loaded Cylinder/Chamber Reload (also known as a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention)

Loaded Cylinder/Chamber Reload – recharge the firearm when it is partially loaded while retaining any live ammunition or ammunition carrier.

"Partially loaded" means the gun is not empty. If there's a round in the chamber, the "ammunition carrier" must be retained regardless if it contains live rounds or not.

3.7.2. Loaded Cylinder/Chamber Reload (also known as a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention)

Loaded Cylinder/Chamber Reload – recharge the firearm when it is partially loaded while retaining any live ammunition or ammunition carrier.

Edited March 7, 2014 by BillR1

[Adam Sills]

This rule 3.7.2 (quoted in whole below), says LIVE ammunition or ammunition carrier. Also, this is a description of a process, not a specification for penalty.

3.11.2 is the defined application of the penalty, and in this context, LIVE or LOADED has the same meaning. I still believe it is NOT a penalty if there is no LIVE ammunition or LOADED magazine left on the ground.

3.7.2. Loaded Cylinder/Chamber Reload (also known as a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention)

Loaded Cylinder/Chamber Reload – recharge the firearm when it is partially loaded while retaining any live ammunition or ammunition carrier.

You are correct. 3.7.2 does not prescribe a penalty. 5.1.1.2 does. The reload rules (3.7), when broken, get a penalty.

5.1.1. Adds three (3) seconds per infraction and is assessed when:

5.1.1.1. A shooter fails to follow the procedures set forth in the stage description

5.1.1.2. A shooter breaks a rule of the game.

3.7.1 requires the firearm to be empty. Round in the chamber is not empty.

3.7.2 requires the shooter to retain [live ammunition] or [ammunition carrier] (grouped for proper reading)

Edited March 7, 2014 by Adam Sills

[awfaxis]

I would say that that the "LIVE" word is being applied to both nouns, because a comma is missing. The grouping would be ... live [ ammunition or ammunition carrier].

It makes no sense in intent to retain an EMPTY mag.

Who do you contact (at IDPA) for clarification?

[Jim Watson]

I think the instructions for requesting clarification are on IDPA.com.

Note that such things are only posted quarterly now, you will not get an immediate answer.

Any road, it has been done to death over the years and you will not hear different from what you have been told above.

If there is a round in the chamber, you must retain the magazine even if empty.

The rationale is that you are not expected to be able to count shots and know to drop an empty magazine out from under a loaded chamber.

No matter what Jeff Cooper said.

[BillR1]

I think the "intent" is that you shouldn't be counting rounds in a situation/scenario. Your gun is either empty (at the time you decide to reload), or it's not. If the gun is empty, you can leave your mag behind. If it's not empty, you have to retain the mag.

Edited March 7, 2014 by BillR1

[awfaxis]

I can accept the argument about not wanting to "count rounds", as this is a gamer's tactic; eliminating the slide-forward process. Must be the USPSA in me.

[Adam Sills]

I would say that that the "LIVE" word is being applied to both nouns, because a comma is missing. The grouping would be ... live [ ammunition or ammunition carrier].

It makes no sense in intent to retain an EMPTY mag.

Who do you contact (at IDPA) for clarification?

Even if live is being applied to both nouns, it would look like this:

live ammunition or live ammunition carrier

Then you have to argue whether it's [live ammunnition] carrier or live [ammunition carrier] (the former is about carrying live ammunition and the latter is about a live carrier, which unless it's fallen in pieces I'd call it live). Commas aren't required in the English language like you seem to think, and you're fighting a losing battle. The rule may not be written to your taste, but that is the IDPA interpretation. Been that way for a long, long time, and there's zero chance of successfully arbitrating that in a match.

[alma]

I can accept the argument about not wanting to "count rounds", as this is a gamer's tactic; eliminating the slide-forward process. Must be the USPSA in me.

Knowingly how many rounds are in your gun = gamer tactic?

Edited March 7, 2014 by alma

[Adam Sills]

I can accept the argument about not wanting to "count rounds", as this is a gamer's tactic; eliminating the slide-forward process. Must be the USPSA in me.

Knowingly how many rounds are in your gun = gamer tactic? :-P

The earlier rulebook had a bit of a description on why they believe that, but it's gone from the new rulebook. Now it's just "the way it is".

(something to the effect of "in a real-life situation, you wouldn't be counting rounds")

[Craig N]

I guess I get to go searching and see if the "no hands through the window" is just a tribalism or not. They always told us to make sure you stand back and not let the gun go through the portal.

That's the local tribe doing it's thing, not an IDPA rule.

I guess I get to go searching and see if the "no hands through the window" is just a tribalism or not. They always told us to make sure you stand back and not let the gun go through the portal.

Or have I confused IDPA and USPSA rules again?

Confusing Academy tactics with match rules again.

It seems I committed the ultimate sin and took a SO's "rule" for gospel I am ashamed and will go into the west. Walk the land like Cane until I have redeemed myself.

[awfaxis]

I can accept the argument about not wanting to "count rounds", as this is a gamer's tactic; eliminating the slide-forward process. Must be the USPSA in me.

Knowingly how many rounds are in your gun = gamer tactic? :-P

The earlier rulebook had a bit of a description on why they believe that, but it's gone from the new rulebook. Now it's just "the way it is".

(something to the effect of "in a real-life situation, you wouldn't be counting rounds")

Glad that's cleared up for me. Not much of an issue for me though, since I'm using an M&P Shield, and I'm pretty slow with it.

However, while researching the rules, and found something I missed. In the 1st Qtr Clarifications, my previously "illegal" S&W 1911 Performance Center 45 is now legal, slide ports and all!

I was using it last year, and was told to put it away if I wanted to be scored. Started using the M&P's.

[Craig N]

The reason is to stop people from shooting 4(5) targets and reloading with 1 round left in the mag using a speed reload. All games have limiters in the rules to limit certain actions. It's the same as how there is a speed limit on pit road or how no forward pass once the QB is passed the line of scrimmage.

The why doesn't really matter is just a rule to be followed.

[Vanniek71]

I prefer to know the why. Do you go through the rest of life without the "why"?

Sorry but there has to be a reason behind it other than "it just needs to be followed"

[ttownracer]

Unfortunate this happened, but you were polite in questioning the call but then accepting it and moving on, suspecting you were getting a raw deal..

M needs to embrace when he is the RO or other official capacity and when he is not. The RO at that time could have gracefully offered that he didn't see the violation and therefore couldn't award the penalty, but appreciated the concern from the peanut gallery..

Thankfully M and those like him step up to run the matches and invest a considerable amount of time and effort, but I think certain individuals feel their efforts entitle them to rise above less invested participants. Each club has a different personality and I have an idea of what to expect when attending area matches. Some are just more enjoyable than others as result of the prevailing attitudes and standard operating proceedures adopted, but not necessarily sanctioned, by IDPA.