Dkrad1935 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Nice rule sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Osage - why is dumping a magazine so bad tactically in your opinion? I have heard people say this a lot and it just doesn't compute for me. So would like to hear your thoughts on why that would be such a sin? Sure. The main reason is that I've only go so many rounds and so many magazines on me. I'm in the Army and I am also a patrol officer for a municipality. It might not be so bad in a military capacity where I've likely got a bunch of magazines, but then again if I do run out I'm going to wish I hadn't left a bunch of perfectly good rounds on the battlefield behind me. As a cop, I know that the average gunfight is just a couple of rounds and the likelihood of even needing to reload is slim. However, there are exceptions. If I have to run into an active shooter (or 2 or 3) situation, say in a mall, my round count may be much higher. I've got 2 spares on my duty belt. If I reload every time I get a short break in the chase I will quickly run out of magazines. If I'm working plain clothes, I may only have one spare. Those rounds become that much more important. Aside from that, while I can separate a game from reality, in USPSA it is often advantageous to drop a half empty and load another when you are in the open with several targets still facing you. There is no emphasis on cover or tactics. In a game you know how many targets you have left - in reality you don't. USPSA cares about speed/accuracy/power. If you are trying to win, you must sacrifice a couple of other defensive skills. Again, I know it's a game and not training, but I tend to not gravitate to a game where I MUST compromise certain tactics in order to be competitive. IDPA has plenty of rules that I dislike. The difference is that when I don't like a rule it's normally because I can't do something that I would do, rather than having to do something that I wouldn't do. For repetition, I would rather be restricted from something I would do than encouraged to do something I wouldn't. Like I said, it may not be a big deal for the vast majority of situations. But I can see enough in my life where I don't want to instill that as a habit. I simply feel that since my gaming time is limited I should pick one that best supports my primary goal and that is tactical shooting. Nothing says you can't shoot USPSA according to your tactical preference. That is one big difference. Shoot is however you want, you won't get penalized, and you can maintain your personal tactical priority. The same cannot be said for IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dkrad1935 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I hear what you are saying Osage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Osage - why is dumping a magazine so bad tactically in your opinion? I have heard people say this a lot and it just doesn't compute for me. So would like to hear your thoughts on why that would be such a sin? Sure. The main reason is that I've only go so many rounds and so many magazines on me. I'm in the Army and I am also a patrol officer for a municipality. It might not be so bad in a military capacity where I've likely got a bunch of magazines, but then again if I do run out I'm going to wish I hadn't left a bunch of perfectly good rounds on the battlefield behind me. As a cop, I know that the average gunfight is just a couple of rounds and the likelihood of even needing to reload is slim. However, there are exceptions. If I have to run into an active shooter (or 2 or 3) situation, say in a mall, my round count may be much higher. I've got 2 spares on my duty belt. If I reload every time I get a short break in the chase I will quickly run out of magazines. If I'm working plain clothes, I may only have one spare. Those rounds become that much more important. Aside from that, while I can separate a game from reality, in USPSA it is often advantageous to drop a half empty and load another when you are in the open with several targets still facing you. There is no emphasis on cover or tactics. In a game you know how many targets you have left - in reality you don't. USPSA cares about speed/accuracy/power. If you are trying to win, you must sacrifice a couple of other defensive skills. Again, I know it's a game and not training, but I tend to not gravitate to a game where I MUST compromise certain tactics in order to be competitive. IDPA has plenty of rules that I dislike. The difference is that when I don't like a rule it's normally because I can't do something that I would do, rather than having to do something that I wouldn't do. For repetition, I would rather be restricted from something I would do than encouraged to do something I wouldn't. Like I said, it may not be a big deal for the vast majority of situations. But I can see enough in my life where I don't want to instill that as a habit. I simply feel that since my gaming time is limited I should pick one that best supports my primary goal and that is tactical shooting. Nothing says you can't shoot USPSA according to your tactical preference. That is one big difference. Shoot is however you want, you won't get penalized, and you can maintain your personal tactical priority. The same cannot be said for IDPA. Have you seen a hardcore IDPA shooter shoot a USPSA match? It's actually amusing since it is so foreign to what USPSA is all about. That showed me that while one can say the games are somewhat similar, in reality they are different as night and day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Nothing says you can't shoot USPSA according to your tactical preference. That is one big difference. Shoot is however you want, you won't get penalized, and you can maintain your personal tactical priority. The same cannot be said for IDPA. Yup, we have a guy that comes around who is a long-time USPSA shooter (~20 years) that has a CCW for his job. He comes out and shoots either his carry gun or one like it from concealment and he only does head shots when there are metric targets. No problem there except he does get kind of pissy on stages with classic targets. Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osage Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Oh I realize I can shoot USPSA using what I deem to be correct tactics, etc. But then it's no longer a game as I have absolutely no chance of winning - I do like winning. It would then just be practice in which case I can do it all by myself without having to wait for 10 other people in a squad. I hope nobody thinks I'm knocking USPSA - I'm not. I am exceedingly impressed at the abilities of many of these shooters. Any game that brings lots of people into the shooting sports and wider field of guns is ok in my book. I simply can't work the road as a cop, serve extra duty on SWAT, fly helicopters for the Army, conduct training as a firearms instructor, go to church, spend time with the family, and shoot every discipline of action shooting. I settled on IDPA as it provides the best combination for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 My point is that no one gives him a procedure for shooting it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dkrad1935 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Osage. I have to poke some fun at you now. I am ex army. So this is in fun..... Please take it that way. When you say you are in the army and talk tactics you get a little bit of credit for that experience. But then when you reveal you are a Ft Rucker Rotary Wing Weenie, you actually lose some credibility on tactics:). just sayin' What do you fly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Osage. I have to poke some fun at you now. I am ex army. So this is in fun..... Please take it that way. When you say you are in the army and talk tactics you get a little bit of credit for that experience. But then when you reveal you are a Ft Rucker Rotary Wing Weenie, you actually lose some credibility on tactics:). just sayin' What do you fly? Very good point! Kind of like grunts in a foxhole talking about aviation tactics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Open and limited guns scare me.... If I can squad with production and SS shooters I'm good with uspsa.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osage Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) You are assuming that I have always been a pilot, and that I have always been in the Army. You would be ignoring the possibility that I began my military career at the ripe ol' age of 18 in the United States Marine Corps. Oh, Blackhawk instructor pilot. Edited February 24, 2014 by Osage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dkrad1935 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Ah the crash hawk. I remember loading up on a flight one day -we always flew doors closed cause it was 40 below and when we landed this grunt yanked on a handle to open the door...... The door totally ejected off the aircraft. I almost pissed myself laughing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHARLES D Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Nothing says you can't shoot USPSA according to your tactical preference. That is one big difference. Shoot is however you want, you won't get penalized, and you can maintain your personal tactical priority. The same cannot be said for IDPA.Yup, we have a guy that comes around who is a long-time USPSA shooter (~20 years) that has a CCW for his job. He comes out and shoots either his carry gun or one like it from concealment and he only does head shots when there are metric targets. No problem there except he does get kind of pissy on stages with classic targets. Later, Chuck And it is real funny to watch what he does when you yell " Cover" demurring the match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 "Reloading!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I think a rank newbie might not know the difference but after bit you see that USPSA is way more fun. If you are in to that sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I think it's pretty silly to pretend that IDPA is any more 'real world' (meow) or practical/tactical than USPSA. Both will help your shooting. Neither will help your 'tactics' in the slightest. Try them both and see what you like. Around here, the round count for monthly matches is pretty similar, 100-120-ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfSpartans Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 You are assuming that I have always been a pilot, and that I have always been in the Army. You would be ignoring the possibility that I began my military career at the ripe ol' age of 18 in the United States Marine Corps. Oh, Blackhawk instructor pilot. So I have to ask. Have you ever had troops give you a "push start" while you sit up front and giggle in an evil manner? Thread derail admitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 If you want tactics, go to a high level advanced tactical shooting course. Sports are for playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 From the USPSA Rulebook: "Any USPSA member in good standing who is determined to have shot an IDPA match when a sanctioned USPSA match was available on the same date shall have his or her membership revoked". Yep, spot on. I found this rule in 2 of my last 3 USPSA rule books. And for those tactical Timmys, ...... I shoot USPSA because SPEED is the most fun tactic to practice!!! That, and in the real world, I'm gonna shoot them as I see them, which is also a really good tactic in USPSA. Geez, if I keep going I'm gonna find that USPSA is too tactical and be forced to take up that Glock game, or SASS, or SCSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dkrad1935 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I wonder about the tactical shooting courses. Not to step on anyone's toes or insult anyone. But I think small unit tactics are very well developed and a lot of the "Brands" out there teaching tactics courses seem to be ex military ninja's. But as for the rest I think it is very "un-developed" and people teach some nuance or another that it seems has little to do with a self defense shooting.... But - I digress and derail - please forgive me again..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dkrad1935 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Oh - we should start a tactics school based on the newly discovered "urban survival altoid tin". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankD Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 My deciding factor was really travel time. The USPSA matches were South of me and IDPA matches were North of me. I shot USPSA first and found it easier to shoot. IDPA rules are different and probably closer to real world encounters. Plus IDPA does not have a $3100 Open gun division. They are both fun expect to spend the day the last match I shot had 78 shooters. This makes for a long day bring a chair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonglee0507 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Haven't tried idpa but i have learned that when you change mag you have to put the used mag in your pocket or pouch before getting the new magazine. How can that be real life? In a gunfight, i dont think that you will remember that you'll just shoot your gun and if you ran out of ammo the hell with that used magazine, you'll throw it away as fast as you can and reload not minding where that used mag is assuming in a real gunfight you put your used mag in your pocket before you know it your opponent has shot you already bec of that procedure Sent from my iPad Air using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfSpartans Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Haven't tried idpa but i have learned that when you change mag you have to put the used mag in your pocket or pouch before getting the new magazine. How can that be real life? In a gunfight, i dont think that you will remember that you'll just shoot your gun and if you ran out of ammo the hell with that used magazine, you'll throw it away as fast as you can and reload not minding where that used mag is assuming in a real gunfight you put your used mag in your pocket before you know it your opponent has shot you already bec of that procedure Sent from my iPad Air using Tapatalk HD Have you read the rules? Where did you learn this as a blanket statement? There are times and places for everything. JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonglee0507 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Haven't tried idpa but i have learned that when you change mag you have to put the used mag in your pocket or pouch before getting the new magazine. How can that be real life? In a gunfight, i dont think that you will remember that you'll just shoot your gun and if you ran out of ammo the hell with that used magazine, you'll throw it away as fast as you can and reload not minding where that used mag is assuming in a real gunfight you put your used mag in your pocket before you know it your opponent has shot you already bec of that procedure Sent from my iPad Air using Tapatalk HD Have you read the rules? Where did you learn this as a blanket statement? There are times and places for everything. JC I read it a bit and have seen idpa videos in youtube and saw also james yeager's video abt idpa vs ipsc and i kinda agree with him Sent from my iPad Air using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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