mgardner Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 We had a maze Saturday with 3 transitions back and forth from downrange to uprange. I managed to move fast enough to trap the RO behind me and downrange so that I could not swing around without covering him with the muzzle. He never stopped me so I just hesitated and when he got right, finished the stage. I was given a reshoot for interference but should he have stopped me immediately when he realized he was trapped? If I had stopped myself would I be entitled to a reshoot? Luckily I had the presence of mind to notice and not cover him with the muzzle. It could've been a disaster with an inexperienced shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Poor stage planning. The folks setting up the stage should have seen the trap coming. The RO should have taken the time to look over the stage and either had it changed to remove the trap, figured a way to NOT get trapped or talk with each shooter about what he the RO was going to do to alleviate the trap possibility. Great that nothing bad happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I could have sworn there was a rule... BUT I can't find it.. Last year at SC state there was a stage where I had an RO I knew was a little less active on his feet than me.. And on his stage there was a left and right shoot with barrel and all cover.. I told him up front that if I thought I ran by a target I'd hit power reverse and go after it and if he got in front of me I'd stop and want my reshoot... He said that was supported by the rules. but all I ever found was RO interference.. If I were running you, and I think I remember Art Brown and Kevin Imel say this too, STOP... and you get a reshoot... In the end, Safety is the name of the game and a shooter stopping his/herself is much better than an injury... One of the RM's can comment and answer for sure.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190397&hl= Another thread from a couple years ago.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Agree, but this should not be in "Match Screw-ups". Poor ROing maybe, but more likely poor stage design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 If I am shooting and an RO gets trapped and has himself in an unsafe position then I am gonna stop right there and go for the reshoot. If necessary it will be discussed with the match director. This is not the same thing as stopping for an unpasted target etc. I don't know of a single RM that wouldn't grant a reshoot for the shooter stopping due to a safety issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Agree, but this should not be in "Match Screw-ups". Poor ROing maybe, but more likely poor stage design. Or the rules forum. The RO that got behind the gun, or the one on the clipboard should have yelled stop when they saw it happen. If you stop yourself and you don't get a re-shoot for RO interference (he was in the way so you could not shoot the stage) I would be surprised. I think him being downrange of you would count as "another external influence". Here is the rule, I added the emphasis. 8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) Prob should have shot him since it was a real match that counted and you can't stop yourself. Just kidding. Shoot around him and get your points. I would always err towards safety and fairness. I think a lot of RO's don't know that you don't have to bump or touch someone to interfear with them. I shot a match last year that had shooters bailing out of a doorway port on the right side of the house and running around the outside of the walls to jump back in and finish the stage at the far downrange port doorway, To deal with this (losing sight of the shooter) the backup RO's were dashing down the blind side of the stage hallways to "catch up" to shooters on the other side with primary RO in tow and out of position because he couldn't squeeze past the shooter ducking into the middle last position without touching them or getting muzzled. It was a doorway. Well I shot the stage straight up and let me tell you that seeing someone on a field course in the house is freaky. Yes he was uprange but I was running right to left heading to the last hallway at a 90 to backstop so we got very good eye contact as he appeared on the full run maybe 8 feet in front of me and just a touch to my left. He put on the brakes very well. I hestitated because of safety and it cost me time so I asked for a reshoot because it slowed me down. First the RM denied it but after interviewing the RO he allowed it. I don't think the RM appreciated that interference doesn't always mean touching. And no seeing spectators in your side vision on a 90 degree type stage movement doesn't warrant a reshoot. I know that I did because it wasn't a fair run since I don't usually shoot stages with people on them Edited February 24, 2014 by BSeevers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSGJohnV Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Was ROing a match when something similar happened to me. Ended up being quick enough on my feet to get behind him so no biggie. Score keeper verified I didn't interfere. Bad stage design though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 This happened to me at last years NC match. I started running uprange when the RO thought I was done with the stage (not sure why, there were several targets left to engage.) He hit the deck when he saw me take off. As soon as I saw him on the ground I stopped, and had the gun clear before he could yell stop. There was no question on interference, and no way I could finish the stage. The question came up, if I had swept the RO while he was downrange of me, should I be DQ'd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 The question came up, if I had swept the RO while he was downrange of me, should I be DQ'd? this happened to me once as well. A younger faster shooter decided to blitz uprange to retrieve a mag for one more target. Totally unexpected and I was actually walking up to him to begin clearing him when he bolted. I was able to stay even with his muzzle and watched it. Later when I casually mentioned how big a .45 muzzle looks from the front they told me I should have DQ'd the shooter if I saw muzzle even though it was not pointed in my direction. I let him finish the stage and he said he knew where I was and that I did not interfere with him at all. We discussed it on here and there were arguments on all sides but I personally could not have DQ'd him with a clear conscience in that particular situation. It was a good lesson for me as I now stay well clear and back until body language tells me they are done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 This happened to me at last years NC match. I started running uprange when the RO thought I was done with the stage (not sure why, there were several targets left to engage.) He hit the deck when he saw me take off. As soon as I saw him on the ground I stopped, and had the gun clear before he could yell stop. There was no question on interference, and no way I could finish the stage. The question came up, if I had swept the RO while he was downrange of me, should I be DQ'd? Did you break a rule? I can't find one assuming your gun was pointed downrange. My guess is your finger was off the trigger as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Interesting. 10.5.5 says you can only be DQ'd for sweeping yourself: 10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). However, in the glossary, sweeping is defined differently Sweeping...................... Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Interesting. 10.5.5 says you can only be DQ'd for sweeping yourself: 10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). However, in the glossary, sweeping is defined differently Sweeping...................... Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body. I would think with a rule as specific as 10.5.5, the rule would be more definitive than the glossary. I also see no rules that DQ a person for another persons mistake. The RO made the mistake and that should not be held against the competitor. If we take that to the extreme, would it be a DQ for you, if the RO put his hand in front of your gun while you were loading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 We had that happen with a stage when a shooter did something unexpected. This was something like the 3rd squad that had shot the stage and there had not been a problem. I know that things like "Do you understand the course of fire?" are not official and aren't supposed to be used. BUT, there are times where asking, "Which way are you going to turn?" or "Which way are you going?" would seem to be in everyone's best interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Yep. I ask things like that when the options are wide open. Very good advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I do my best to stay alert and expect the unexpected. I also don't stay in contact with the shooter on a stage like that. You can manage the stage without being "velcroed" to the shooter every step of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 We had that happen with a stage when a shooter did something unexpected. This was something like the 3rd squad that had shot the stage and there had not been a problem. I know that things like "Do you understand the course of fire?" are not official and aren't supposed to be used. BUT, there are times where asking, "Which way are you going to turn?" or "Which way are you going?" would seem to be in everyone's best interest. I also as a competitor tell the RO if I'm taking a route that was different from preceding shooters. or for example something like. "If I miss this far target at 30 yards, when I get down to the end array, I'll be running hard to the right so I can back-up my shot on that target at 10 yards." or even just, "I'm going down the left and once I've hit the steel I'm going to be running hard back up range". they should ask, but it doesn't do you any harm to let them know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awfaxis Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I just recently took the RO seminar with Carl Schmidt. Great class. This topic came up, and his opinion is that if a RO asks about movement, it would obligate the shooter to perform the specified movement, rather than having the option to change his/her mind at the last moment. Best to try and be prepared for all possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I just recently took the RO seminar with Carl Schmidt. Great class. This topic came up, and his opinion is that if a RO asks about movement, it would obligate the shooter to perform the specified movement, rather than having the option to change his/her mind at the last moment. Best to try and be prepared for all possibilities. I hadn't considered that but it's a good point. my counter would be most shooters try and develop a stage plan and shoot to that plan. sometimes things go wrong but it doesn't typically change something like running left to right etc. I agree though a combination of good stage design and good RO'ing should mean the likelihood of getting trapped is pretty remote. like where we have barriers with tight corridors often it's not neccessary for the RO to go in there at all. he can still see and time from the other side. so, maybe the RO doesn't need to ask, but as a competitor if you think you are going to do something the RO doesn't expect it's not a bad idea to mention it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCringleberry Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Same thing happened to me a few years ago as the shooter, I paused and told the RO that he was in my way and hendering my movements as I tried to make my way around him safely. This made him aware that he interfered with me, I did not sweep him, and I didn't stop myself either. You should not stop yourself at any time unless it's a safety issue and even then you can mitigate most of those as you are in control of the firearm. I was given a reshoot without question. As a CRO, I understand what we should do and I have never been trapped but I have interfered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dentedr Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I shot this club match the OP is describing and watched this occur. It wasn't a poor match design it was poor ROing. The RO took the clock with description from the precious RO and failed to follow the directions and move back at the proper times. He ended up trapping three shooters the same way, someone else took the clock and all was good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgardner Posted March 9, 2014 Author Share Posted March 9, 2014 I'm ROing on stage 6 at the Western States Single Stack Championship again today and you need to watch carefully because the shooter may need to retreat to re-engage targets. We have a good RO team on the stage which has kept things safe. I'm about wore out already from doing the 20 yard sprint 100 times yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 This happened to me at last years NC match. I started running uprange when the RO thought I was done with the stage (not sure why, there were several targets left to engage.) He hit the deck when he saw me take off. As soon as I saw him on the ground I stopped, and had the gun clear before he could yell stop. There was no question on interference, and no way I could finish the stage. The question came up, if I had swept the RO while he was downrange of me, should I be DQ'd? Two thoughts -- as an RO or acting as an RM, I don't need you or even want you to clear the gun at that moment. Find a safe place, concentrate on pointing and keeping the muzzle there, and reengage the safety. Hold the gun still. Clearing requires muzzle movement -- while I have no doubt that you accomplished this safely, not every situation is the same. Clear the gun when you get RO direction from someone who can provide the appropriate safety direction, someone who can both see you, and whatever else is still going on on the stage.... Second thought -- if you muzzle anyone, for any reason, yep, that's a match DQ. You're responsible for the gun -- bottom line. Last sentence of 8.6.4 covers it: However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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