The Antichrome Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 As of this writing, those Classifiers are still on the USPSA website and there is no mention of them being retired. Has the USPSA changed their mind? Does it take more than an email from 1 board member to retire a bunch of Classifiers and fundamentally change Classifiers to a 6 shot neutral only system? Or, is it still just a poorly executed action that ignores the expectations of the membership? I encourage you match directors out there to continue to use these Classifiers. I wrote to my S/C, A/D, and the President to express my opinion and displeasure. The A/D responded immediately and contacted me to discuss it. The S/C responded as well. I'm disappointed that Phil did not respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 What did your SC or AD say about the status of those classifiers? Are they going away or not? It seems like USPSA could get a new edition of the CCB up on the website in a day or two if this were going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 What did your SC or AD say about the status of those classifiers? Are they going away or not? It seems like USPSA could get a new edition of the CCB up on the website in a day or two if this were going to happen. I'd be interested in knowing the status of those classifiers as well. I got the same email the rest of you probably did and made sure not to select one of the 'retired' classifiers at our last match. I have one guy who is in the Top 20 in the hunt for his M and a handful of new shooters trying to earn their initial classification. There was no way I wanted to mess with them and have a classifer not be counted... I will say that it would be nice if USPSA would mark which ones they don't want us to use on their website... But until that time I have the list printed off and will continue to refer to it before each match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 OP, So what are you going to do? Put a sign up at the front door that says " No Revolver Shooters Allowed ! " ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 OP, So what are you going to do? Put a sign up at the front door that says " No Revolver Shooters Allowed ! " ?? And there you have it. I was accused of showing animosity towards revolver shooters by sending an email off to HQ. The OP in no way shape or form said revolver shooters are not welcome at his matches. I would say he knows his client base and probably does not have many if any revolver shooters. By the way, I have read my own email over and over and I still can't see where I said anything derogatory about revolver shooters. Non revolver shooters are being criticized for not liking changes made to the game while revolvers shooters feel free to say whatever they like about us. One sure way to make this personal is to just keep it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 What did your SC or AD say about the status of those classifiers? Are they going away or not? It seems like USPSA could get a new edition of the CCB up on the website in a day or two if this were going to happen. Troy took the issue back to the board. It remains to be seen what'll happen. But they know that the episode isnt over. Why the info isnt posted for the membership is just bewildering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 OP, So what are you going to do? Put a sign up at the front door that says " No Revolver Shooters Allowed ! " ?? Ever try showing up at an icore match with a "bottom feeder"? Ever try showing up at that big Memphis charity match with a "bottom feeder"? Ever notice that Revo guys refer to us and our guns as "bottom feeders"? Around here, Revo guys are some of the funnest people on the range (Team Bubber) and I have zero animosity toward any of them. But I am PTFO about the paradigm shift in our sport to accomodate a sliver of the membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 OP, So what are you going to do? Put a sign up at the front door that says " No Revolver Shooters Allowed ! " ?? Ever try showing up at that big Memphis charity match with a "bottom feeder"? But I was in the process of signing up for the match in Production before I realized it was Revo only. Could not find Production on the app was my first clue! Agreed that Revolver shooters are good folks too. There are only a few around me and they have always been very fun to shoot with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furyalecto Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I saw that someone said the pulled classifiers are still active on the USPSA website & downloads. I was about to post to check there for active classifiers since that is the official location, but I guess I can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I spoke with an RM this week that said there was very little talk going on in his circle except for the fact that the classifier mess was not a totally done deal and might still get rectified somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) OP, So what are you going to do? Put a sign up at the front door that says " No Revolver Shooters Allowed ! " ?? Ever try showing up at an icore match with a "bottom feeder"? Ever try showing up at that big Memphis charity match with a "bottom feeder"? Ever notice that Revo guys refer to us and our guns as "bottom feeders"? FYI Autos are welcome and have their own division at ICORE matches. Autos were welcome at the Memphis match and 2 or 3 shot them at the last match. Although they didn't compete for score their money went to the charity just the same as the revolver shooters. The last time I looked the ammo on a auto went in the "bottom" it isn't meant as a derogatory term. Beside I have been picked on by auto shooters and called "Amish", "cowboy", and my guns called antiques. I don't care and have fun shooting with everyone and hopefully we can all pick on each other and not take it so serious. Edited February 20, 2014 by Bosshoss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 OP, So what are you going to do? Put a sign up at the front door that says " No Revolver Shooters Allowed ! " ?? Ever try showing up at an icore match with a "bottom feeder"? Ever try showing up at that big Memphis charity match with a "bottom feeder"? Ever notice that Revo guys refer to us and our guns as "bottom feeders"? FYI Autos are welcome and have their own division at ICORE matches. Autos were welcome at the Memphis match and 2 or 3 shot them at the last match. Although they didn't compete for score their money went to the charity just the same as the revolver shooters. The last time I looked the ammo on a auto went in the "bottom" it isn't meant as a derogatory term. Beside I have been picked on by auto shooters and called "Amish", "cowboy", and my guns called antiques. I don't care and have fun shooting with everyone and hopefully we can all pick on each other and not take it so serious. Amish? That's funny. How exactly does shooting a revolver equate to being Amish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Ever try showing up at an icore match with a "bottom feeder"? "bottom feeders" are welcomed with open arms at our ICORE match. They compete against each other in the fun division. Guess we'll have to wait and see what Kyle reports back from the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 OP, So what are you going to do? Put a sign up at the front door that says " No Revolver Shooters Allowed ! " ?? And there you have it. I was accused of showing animosity towards revolver shooters by sending an email off to HQ. The OP in no way shape or form said revolver shooters are not welcome at his matches. I would say he knows his client base and probably does not have many if any revolver shooters. By the way, I have read my own email over and over and I still can't see where I said anything derogatory about revolver shooters. Non revolver shooters are being criticized for not liking changes made to the game while revolvers shooters feel free to say whatever they like about us. One sure way to make this personal is to just keep it up. I'm not familar with the email you wrote, but I was being sarcastic, with a bit of truth though - I'm sure the OP doesnt discriminate against revo guys, ( as I do not against auto guys, we're all friends here ) -- He states, well, we dont have any revo guys show up, so why cant we run them? ok sure go ahead - but what if a guy shows up with a revolver that night just by chance? do you send him packing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Ever try showing up at an icore match with a "bottom feeder"? "bottom feeders" are welcomed with open arms at our ICORE match. They compete against each other in the fun division. Guess we'll have to wait and see what Kyle reports back from the board. Thats a perfect solution. Have the Revo's compete against each other in the "fun division", and not screw up the entire uspsa classifier system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) OP, So what are you going to do? Put a sign up at the front door that says " No Revolver Shooters Allowed ! " ?? Ever try showing up at an icore match with a "bottom feeder"? Ever try showing up at that big Memphis charity match with a "bottom feeder"? Ever notice that Revo guys refer to us and our guns as "bottom feeders"? FYI Autos are welcome and have their own division at ICORE matches. Autos were welcome at the Memphis match and 2 or 3 shot them at the last match. Although they didn't compete for score their money went to the charity just the same as the revolver shooters. The last time I looked the ammo on a auto went in the "bottom" it isn't meant as a derogatory term. Beside I have been picked on by auto shooters and called "Amish", "cowboy", and my guns called antiques. I don't care and have fun shooting with everyone and hopefully we can all pick on each other and not take it so serious. Amish? That's funny. How exactly does shooting a revolver equate to being Amish? Years ago everyone had a horse and buggy and no electricity but the Amish still live like that while the rest of us have chosen the"easier" and more modern life style. I like to tell everyone that revolver is a lot of hard work like plowing the fields with a horse and single bottom plow instead of a 4 wheel drive A/C cab equipped tractor that plows a 50 foot swath through the fields. I have a big range cart to carry my stuff around at the range and I think I'm going to put a slow moving vehicle Triangle on the back just for some more friendly ribbing. Edited February 20, 2014 by Bosshoss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Honest to God.......I think everybody needs to take a deep breath here.....there is absolutely nothing about this situation that is going to create a "paradigm shift" in the sport, and there is no reason to be PTFO at anyone. That is exactly the kind of uproar that a few people wanted to create. They want to see this animosity. Seriously, please just relax. None of this is going to have any kind of meaningful impact on anybody's division. I say this not as a revolver shooter, but as a very dedicated USPSA shooter who shoots many more matches in the other divisions than I shoot in Revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) By the way, I have read my own email over and over and I still can't see where I said anything derogatory about revolver shooters. Calling us "statistically insignificant" might not have been the most gracious choice of words, Kevin. However--I must admit I understand what you are saying. You're right--revolver shooters have been pretty much insignificant in USPSA lately, particularly at major matches. The 8-minor rule change was conceived in an attempt to save a division that was clearly dying on the vine. Whether USPSA executed the concept in the smartest manner is certainly debatable, but it was a good-faith attempt by good people to do a good thing for our game. I have been to one major match this year with my 8-shooter, and I immediately caught flak over the classifier thing, the instant I showed up on the first stage. Like it was my fault that USPSA took the lazy way out! As for me, I don't give a shit about the entire classifier system--I've always felt that it's wrong to pass out trophies and prizes to a bunch of mid- or low-level shooters anyway. But I bow to the majority and realize that my feelings about "participation ribbons" are probably statistically insignificant. I also agree with your suggestion that we not make any of this personal. I am going to do my very best to take that to heart. Edited February 20, 2014 by Carmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ty Hamby Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Fellas, This whole discussion of the classifiers reminds me of the politicians and their "blood in the streets" arguments. Entertaining none the less. Sincerely, Statistically Insignificant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Kind of reminds me of the split into Open and Limited in the early '90's. Some would have thought the world was ending. It did turn out to be a good thing though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlgentlegiant Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 I have nothing against revolver shooters, nothing at all. We have one guy show shoots revolvers who comes to my matches occasionally. More are welcome and always will be. It is just for me and the matches I run and shoot at 99.9% of the time there are no revolver shooters. My posts and emails were IN NO WAY anything against revolver shooters. I just wanted another look at the decision to pull the classifiers and for the BOD to try and find a better way then just pulling almost all the classifiers I can fit in my bay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Kind of reminds me of the split into Open and Limited in the early '90's. Some would have thought the world was ending. It did turn out to be a good thing though. There is a big difference between creating two divisions and letting people with different capacity guns compete in the same division. I understand the reason why this was done and single stack already has a 8 round major / 10 round minor rule so is this any different? But I want to know when can I get 13 rounds if I shoot L10 minor? How about a longer magazines for Limited and Open minor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Have any of you thought all of this through? There are a number of classifiers that have _always_ been unfair to the 6 shooters. I know we only "compete within our division" but we all look at the combined results. Part of the fun of shooting Production or any of the other restricted divisions is beating others who have more "competitive" equipment. Now that modern firearms are being introduced to Revolver division we have to deal with this. Yes, there are several ways to "fix" these classifier problems that have always existed. We could require all revolvers to reload after 6 shots on classifiers, but that would make Revolver the only division that cannot use the additional rounds in their firearm to make up misses on steel. Not all classifiers are Virginia count. The other option is to set new High Hit Factors for these classifiers. The classifiers that have required a reload after 7 can be changed to specify a reload before 8. This would not effect the HHF for the other divisions but it will change it for Revolver. This takes time. I suspect the BOD is leaning towards the second solution. Revolver nationals are coming up on May 4th, new HHFs can be set at that time. If you would all just relax I'm sure this will be sorted out in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Have any of you thought all of this through? There are a number of classifiers that have _always_ been unfair to the 6 shooters. I know we only "compete within our division" but we all look at the combined results. Part of the fun of shooting Production or any of the other restricted divisions is beating others who have more "competitive" equipment. Now that modern firearms are being introduced to Revolver division we have to deal with this. Yes, there are several ways to "fix" these classifier problems that have always existed. We could require all revolvers to reload after 6 shots on classifiers, but that would make Revolver the only division that cannot use the additional rounds in their firearm to make up misses on steel. Not all classifiers are Virginia count. The other option is to set new High Hit Factors for these classifiers. The classifiers that have required a reload after 7 can be changed to specify a reload before 8. This would not effect the HHF for the other divisions but it will change it for Revolver. This takes time. I suspect the BOD is leaning towards the second solution. Revolver nationals are coming up on May 4th, new HHFs can be set at that time. If you would all just relax I'm sure this will be sorted out in time. The problem with having a HHF set by an 8 shot revolver is that anyone shooting a 6 shot revolver will have an artificially low HF on those stages. If you take a classifier with an 8 shot array, and have Jerry shoot it with a 6 shot, he's going to have a A-B level hit factor, even on a perfect run. I got the impression the BOD's goal was to have 6 shot major go head to head with 8 shot minor. If the goal was to have everyone shoot 8 shot revolvers then I think the plan of just setting new HHF works fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) Have any of you thought all of this through? There are a number of classifiers that have _always_ been unfair to the 6 shooters. I know we only "compete within our division" but we all look at the combined results. Part of the fun of shooting Production or any of the other restricted divisions is beating others who have more "competitive" equipment. Now that modern firearms are being introduced to Revolver division we have to deal with this. Yes, there are several ways to "fix" these classifier problems that have always existed. We could require all revolvers to reload after 6 shots on classifiers, but that would make Revolver the only division that cannot use the additional rounds in their firearm to make up misses on steel. Not all classifiers are Virginia count. The other option is to set new High Hit Factors for these classifiers. The classifiers that have required a reload after 7 can be changed to specify a reload before 8. This would not effect the HHF for the other divisions but it will change it for Revolver. This takes time. I suspect the BOD is leaning towards the second solution. Revolver nationals are coming up on May 4th, new HHFs can be set at that time. If you would all just relax I'm sure this will be sorted out in time. The problem with having a HHF set by an 8 shot revolver is that anyone shooting a 6 shot revolver will have an artificially low HF on those stages. If you take a classifier with an 8 shot array, and have Jerry shoot it with a 6 shot, he's going to have a A-B level hit factor, even on a perfect run. I got the impression the BOD's goal was to have 6 shot major go head to head with 8 shot minor. If the goal was to have everyone shoot 8 shot revolvers then I think the plan of just setting new HHF works fine. We have a unique situation in Revolver, it is the only division where shooting minor may provide an advantage over major. That said the Major scoring will provide a real advantage on classifiers that are 6-shot neutral. A revolver shooter currently needs to make a decision at the beginning of a match: "Do I want to maximize my classification or my overall placement in the match?" You could certainly choose 6 classifiers that would favor the 8-shot guns but the majority of the classifiers favor 6-shot major scoring. Your classification is an average of the highest 6 of your most recent 8 scores. I think enough of this will average out to reinstate many of the missing classifiers. Edited February 21, 2014 by PatJones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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