remoandiris Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 I'm pretty sure the magazine release would be considered a "reloading device". Really? Seems to me a reloading device is a mag or speedloader, especially in the context of 5.2.5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Try reloading without using the magazine release. Also, when I was discussing the attachment point of the holster, I was referring to one which attaches with a loop encircling the belt. If it attaches some other way then that would obviously be the "attachment point". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Try reloading without using the magazine release. Well, you can't reload without using your hands, either! Are they "reloading devices"? C'mon - mags, speedloaders, and moon clips are "reloading devices". Everything else is part of the gun, or your body, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 C'mon - mags, speedloaders, and moon clips are "reloading devices". Everything else is part of the gun, or your body, yes? Yes. 5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner: — Perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt — from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the closest point of the grip of the handgun and/or any reloading device. It clearly states to the grip of the handgun, which was to keep people from measuring to mag releases, safety levers, etc. I have never seen a clear answer to whether the "attachment point" is the top or bottom of a belt loop, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinZA Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) I don't think it matters too much whether the attachment point is the top or the bottom of the belt. The attachment point is only used as the reference place where the direction of perpendicularity is determined. I doubt the perpendicular direction is very different at the top and bottom of the belt Edited October 28, 2014 by CZinZA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 to the closest point of the grip of the handgun and/or any reloading device. Perhaps the "and/or" is misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 to the closest point of the grip of the handgun and/or any reloading device. Perhaps the "and/or" is misleading. Since you think a mag release is a reloading device it gives some shooters at least an extra 1/4 inch to play with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 If you add a MagGuide it is a reloading device, in my opinion if you add an extended mag release it's equally a reloading device. No one, as of yet, has posted a better way of reloading than to rid yourself of the unwanted magazine in the gun by using the mag release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Do you agree with another poster that said (sarcastically) hands are also reloading devices? As of yet, no one has posted a better way of reloading than inserting a mag/moon clip/speed loader with hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Well, if the hands were an attached portion of the weapon I'd probably agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Well, if the hands were an attached portion of the weapon I'd probably agree. Where in the rulebook does anything say reloading devices are attached to the weapon???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueeyedme Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Every major I have shot or worked this was indeed checked +1 Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 But that still doesn't explain why the measurement was being done to the safety, rather than to the grip at the 2014 Nationals as indicated in post #173. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Exactly what reloading device would you measure to if it isn't attached to the weapon ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Your definition of the mag release being a "reloading device" doesn't mesh with 10.2.6: 10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the handgun, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position or posture at the start signal, will incur one procedural penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 It would seem to me that "moving hands towards the handgun" would cover it since the mag release is an integral part of the handgun. Just like a Mag Guide is an integral portion of the handgun when properly installed in/on the handgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 OK, at this point I'm out of logical arguments to convince you that reloading devices are magazines, speed loaders, and moon clips; NOT magwells and mag releases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Exactly what reloading device would you measure to if it isn't attached to the weapon ??? Uhhhhhhh, the magazines, moon clips, or speed loaders. Ya know, the thingies that carry the ammunition???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 It would seem to me that "moving hands towards the handgun" would cover it since the mag release is an integral part of the handgun. Just like a Mag Guide is an integral portion of the handgun when properly installed in/on the handgun. It might be time to either sign up for another RO class, or come out to a match..... Based on your definition of reloading device, it's clear that the sport has evolved since you last came out and played...... Come on in, the water's warm..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 If you consider the mag release to be a reloading device, if the the start condition is "gun unloaded and holstered; all reloading devices in ammo can", would you disassemble your gun and put the mag release inside the ammo can? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I'm thinking of making some business cards that say "Joe Shooter ESQ. Range Lawyer. 180088uspsa" to pass out to people when we get into these kinds of discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueeyedme Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Seriously, just look at E2. It shows where and how to measure. If it looks close, I use the short edge of my overlay in the same position and ask the shooter to make an adjustment if necessary. If they don't agree, they can take it up with the RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuelie777 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Seriously, just look at E2. It shows where and how to measure. If it looks close, I use the short edge of my overlay in the same position and ask the shooter to make an adjustment if necessary. If they don't agree, they can take it up with the RM. Yes and Yes. Really simple. 8 page thread on simple. If the shooter does not meet the rules, take it up with the RM. Also letting people get away with it at level 1 matches is not good either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 On a slow day/days I just can't resist !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 On a slow day/days I just can't resist !!! Oh sure, We're supposed to believe you were joking. Yeah, I'm convinced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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