motosapiens Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 But tht's my point ... I can't dry fire either now and I'm tired of making bullets ... sounds like you need more guns, so if one is getting worked on you still have something to practice with. Both of my competition pistols are out at the same time unfortunately ... Sounds like you need more guns, so if 2 of them are getting worked on, you still have something to practice with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 John Z Sr hit on something that I thinks is important and that is we need to have classifier stages that aren't just 6 reload 6. We shot Window Pain at our classifier match this month and I'd say it was the most talked about classifier of those we shot. Everyone had something positive to say about it that I talked with. I hope we'll see more classifiers like this in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Might go back to the Nat's if they ever get back to Vegas. Nats are like 90 minutes away from vegas, at a much nicer range!! True but it aint Vegas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 You're very lucky then since I would suspect that the vast majority of local matches don't come close to rivaling the Nationals, to say nothing of the talent pool. My bottom line is that if you want a national level classification it should be earned by shooting against national competitors for an entire match, not an individual stage ... Kinda actually sounds like you want a national ranking system, not a shooting skill classification system. (Which is what we have currently.) Our classification system isn't any sort of ranking system, nor is it a comparison system for match rankings. The current shooting classification system tests certain shooting skills versus an external (sometimes human-tested, sometimes not) standard and keeps a sequence over time. It turns out those shooting skills correlate strongly with match performance---but they are not the same thing. Nor are they described as being the same thing. I think it would be interesting to have a major match ranking system of some sort---but quite frankly, given the variation in match shooting (except for people like Miculek and Grauffel), I don't really see the need or reason for the vast majority of people. (Besides, isn't there already some sort of IPSC ranking website somewhere? http://www.ipscrating.com ? ) I do, however, quite like the current classification system as it gives a large group of people external standards that they can use to rate their shooting skills, observe changes over time, and set goals for improvement, without having to have other particular shooters in attendance for "official" comparison, or attend major matches (in which results are variable) to obtain classification information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 that's a good point. the vast majority of classifiers are shoot 3 targets, reload, shoot 3 targets. Maybe if most classifiers were of the mini stage variety it would be more representative of match skills ... I still haven't heard any convincing arguments that make me believe our classification system shouldn't be match based against the rest of the country ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'd probably be more thrilled with our classification system if your performance at a level 2 or 3 match bumped up your classification and prevented sandbagging and also your classification could go down based on your current skills to help eliminate some of the grandbagging or maybe throw in a req't to have shot X number of classifiers at a certain level within a specified time period to keep your classification level ... And while I'm getting my way ... Maybe get rid of all those "3rd C class" & "1st D class" awards which are possible at level II &III matches if enough shooters show up. It kinda reminds me of the 'everyone gets a medal" approach ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'd probably be more thrilled with our classification system if your performance at a level 2 or 3 match bumped up your classification and prevented sandbagging and also your classification could go down based on your current skills to help eliminate some of the grandbagging or maybe throw in a req't to have shot X number of classifiers at a certain level within a specified time period to keep your classification level ... And while I'm getting my way ... Maybe get rid of all those "3rd C class" & "1st D class" awards which are possible at level II &III matches if enough shooters show up. It kinda reminds me of the 'everyone gets a medal" approach ... There you go. If you don't give out self-esteem and participation awards, there's no incentive to sandbag. As far as grandbagging, I totally do not care about it in the slightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 yep, never have understood what it means to get an award as "2nd 'C' shooter" .... grandbaggers don't really bother me too much .... after all, how many people can honestly say they know an actual grandbagger? Someone who has a GM card yet gets beat by true (not sandbagging) M class & maybe top A shooters at matches? I've yet to see one in my limited time in the sport .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 yep, never have understood what it means to get an award as "2nd 'C' shooter" .... grandbaggers don't really bother me too much .... after all, how many people can honestly say they know an actual grandbagger? Someone who has a GM card yet gets beat by true (not sandbagging) M class & maybe top A shooters at matches? I've yet to see one in my limited time in the sport .... I've seen some M's and GM's that don't always shoot at that level. Sometimes it's older guys that are no longer as serious about the sport. Maybe some of them focused on shooting classifiers over and over to get their classification. Either way, I don't really care. Just makes me feel better if I can beat them. Heck, sometimes I have a bad day and get beat by lots of C and D shooters. sometimes I have a good day and finish in front of some A's and M's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flack jacket Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 that's a good point. the vast majority of classifiers are shoot 3 targets, reload, shoot 3 targets. Maybe if most classifiers were of the mini stage variety it would be more representative of match skills ... I still haven't heard any convincing arguments that make me believe our classification system shouldn't be match based against the rest of the country ... ^^^^ This! There are some mini stages in the book. I noticed the biggest hangup is to have the props/walls exact same dimensions of the classifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I setup "Bookout's Boogie" a couple of years ago. It took me longer to setup that 18 round stage than it would a 32 round field course, because I had to make sure the layout was identical to the WSB. I hate the fact that the majority of our classifiers are static short courses, but I understand why most match directors chose those over the more complicated ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 We all have good days and bad days but I'm talking about a shooter that gets consistently beat by legitimate lower class shooters .... And not someone who was a legit GM but now has slowed down for any number of valid reasons ... The difficulty of setting up a mini stage classifer is just another reason I don't like the system ...even when we have classifiers that are a reasonable mirror of match skills we don't use them Let's face it, a 1 sec draw and a 1 sec reload can carry you pretty far under most classifiers which are not even shooting skills, they are gun handling skills. Maybe classifiers should be divided up into 3 different types which highlight different req'd skill sets in our sport and then to get a classification you must have 2 from each category that make up your top 6 .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfish Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 The vast majority of USPSA members don't shoot major matches. Its like StraightUp_OG said, why buy a uspsa membership if you don't shoot major if you cant classify and the local matches. There would be no point to buying the membership and that would destroy the USPSA as a whole. You would only be buying the membership for the Frontsight Mag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 What!? You think selling advertising space in Front Sight magazine is a losing proposition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 yep, never have understood what it means to get an award as "2nd 'C' shooter" .... grandbaggers don't really bother me too much .... after all, how many people can honestly say they know an actual grandbagger? Someone who has a GM card yet gets beat by true (not sandbagging) M class & maybe top A shooters at matches? I've yet to see one in my limited time in the sport .... Don't be fooled. Just because you don't see them does not mean they are not out there. Grandbaggers are real. And I don't see why we keep ending up at," never have understood what it means to get an award as "2nd 'C' shooter" ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 yep, never have understood what it means to get an award as "2nd 'C' shooter" .... grandbaggers don't really bother me too much .... after all, how many people can honestly say they know an actual grandbagger? Someone who has a GM card yet gets beat by true (not sandbagging) M class & maybe top A shooters at matches? I've yet to see one in my limited time in the sport .... I've got one and can tell you what it means to me..... 2nd C class, Production Division, 2005 Summer Blast. In terms of shooting prowess (what shooting prowess? :-) ) it means literally nothing. But, it's a nice reminder of one of my favorite matches ever -- the Summer Blast. I was fortunate enough to shoot a couple in Virginia, and then a couple more when the match moved to York, PA. It reminds me of people -- both the folks who set and staffed the match, and the friends I shot it with. And the Plaque's got a frog with a rocket strapped to his back on it....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I guess I qualify as a grandbagger, although I would be much happier if my classification represented my shooting abilities. I'm a solid mid B shooter, but I do really good on classifiers from time to time, so I am an A in production and single stack. I haven't re-shot a classifier in years. I don't go into "hero or zero" mode on the classifiers. I do think the "El Prez" style stage is a better fit to my skills than a larger field course (which sucks because I would much rather be the guy who is better on the field courses.) It is what it is. I go to matches to have fun and do my best. Winning my class would be great, but that is pretty much out of the picture until I get serious about practice and dry-fire again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) Look, we are all motivated by different things and I'm not trying to put anyone down for something that is important to them .... But to me, if we didn't have these, what I'll call participation awards, I think you'd see a lot of sandbagging go by the way side becuase you could not longer "gain" anything for it. What would be the point of sandbagging if the only awards given out at a match were for order of finish? And leave the classification thing for determining your improvement in the sport ... And to the people who say it would reduce participation I call "bovine scatology". Plenty of sports only give out awards for the top finishers ... You want an award? Work harder at it. For me, I'd much rather see a solid random draw prize table a big matches as the method of saying thanks to all the rank and file shooters who participate but can't compete to win .... Everyone gets something: The top shooters compete for the title The rank and file get a chance at a cool prize no matter where they finish Sponsors get access to people who buy their stuff and good PR and marketing opportunity I guess being like 97 yrs old I grew up in a society where we didn't give everyone a prize so they could feel good about their less than spectacular performance ... Don't get me started on the decline of western society becuase of all these ideas floating around that somehow winners and losers is a bad idea and being the best at something unfair becuase you had coaches and trainers and i didn't and we shouldn't have any rich people, blah, blah, blah ... Damn, I wish I had my gun back so I could go do something I like .... Edited January 25, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Damn, I wish I had my gun back so I could go do something I like .... You seem to LIKE stirring the pot just fine. You went from thinking the classification system needs revamped, which it doesn't, to saying giving out a plaque to a lower class shooter is why we are plagued by sandbaggers in the sport, which we are not. There are some sandbaggers and grandbaggers for sure. Some are even famous. But the vast majority, literally nearly all, of the shooters in this game are straight up shooters who want to have fun and do as good as they can. I forget, there are how many thousand USPSA members? And most of us can name at most 10 famous top level shooters. To me this sport is not about winning the national championship. As a matter of fact I could care less who wins it to the point of being sick of reading about it month after month if FS magazine. Shooting USPSA is much much bigger than the nationals. Those guys and girls who get those dinky little plaques that they appreciate so much are the ones who make it possible for the sport to exist. I too like random draw for the masses. As far as I'm concerned, if a match can afford it, give the winner of each division a huge cash payout. They earned it! But you can't just pay them and give all the other shooters who gave you that money in the first place, diddly squat. If somebody wants to sandbag to get an 8X10 plaque then they are a moron. And you, nor anybody else, should waste time thinking about them. Going to the point of comparing us to the politically correct world of say, soccer, where everybody gets a prize so we don't hurt their self esteem is a slap in the face to the shooters who sign up to shoot as well as the staff who steps up to make it possible for us all to have some fun and shoot with friends. I have only MD'ed one major match so far, but nobody I sent a plaque to told me to keep it because it was meaningless. As a matter of fact most sent me sincere thanks when they received theirs. Where's the tylenol!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9146gt Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Damn, I wish I had my gun back so I could go do something I like .... You seem to LIKE stirring the pot just fine. You went from thinking the classification system needs revamped, which it doesn't, to saying giving out a plaque to a lower class shooter is why we are plagued by sandbaggers in the sport, which we are not. There are some sandbaggers and grandbaggers for sure. Some are even famous. But the vast majority, literally nearly all, of the shooters in this game are straight up shooters who want to have fun and do as good as they can. I forget, there are how many thousand USPSA members? And most of us can name at most 10 famous top level shooters. To me this sport is not about winning the national championship. As a matter of fact I could care less who wins it to the point of being sick of reading about it month after month if FS magazine. Shooting USPSA is much much bigger than the nationals. Those guys and girls who get those dinky little plaques that they appreciate so much are the ones who make it possible for the sport to exist. I too like random draw for the masses. As far as I'm concerned, if a match can afford it, give the winner of each division a huge cash payout. They earned it! But you can't just pay them and give all the other shooters who gave you that money in the first place, diddly squat. If somebody wants to sandbag to get an 8X10 plaque then they are a moron. And you, nor anybody else, should waste time thinking about them. Going to the point of comparing us to the politically correct world of say, soccer, where everybody gets a prize so we don't hurt their self esteem is a slap in the face to the shooters who sign up to shoot as well as the staff who steps up to make it possible for us all to have some fun and shoot with friends. I have only MD'ed one major match so far, but nobody I sent a plaque to told me to keep it because it was meaningless. As a matter of fact most sent me sincere thanks when they received theirs. Where's the tylenol!!! +1 Sarge. I would go a little more extreme...pay match fee and for an additional $35 will put what ever you want on your plaque. That way everyone can have one. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 What's wrong with stirring the pot? I believe that was what my original post was all about .... As for sandbaggers I usually just deal with them in my own special way ... By calling them out during the match and making sure everyone knows who they are ... Which most already do anyway ... We are all products of our upbringing and my competitive background was one where the only awards given out where for the top finishers .... Is our classificatiion system perfect? Hardly. Does it need to be revamped? Depends on what you mean by revamp .... I do believ there are things to do to make if more representative of match skills but since I'll never be on the BoD or an AD my opinions are hardly worth anything except to get folks riled up on the Internet .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Why sell yourself short. Everyone has the same opportunity to become an AD and serve on the BoD. You just have to do what's required to become eligible. Hell Jay just got elected for area 6 and I think that's a 3 year term so you have 3 years to prepare to run against him. I still think we should just do away with it but I know that won't happen as it would cut revenue for USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 Well I actually didn't say I couldn't be on the Board, I said I would not .... While I don't know what the time req'ts are for an AD, or even the specific job responsibilities, what I do know is that usually most people don't like my particular leadership style in a civilian setting. As a retired Col i've never been the concsenus builder type. Tell me what the objective is, give me some reasonable resources and a small team of competent pros and I'll get it done .... Oh, and I hate politics ....mostly becuase of one particular assignment, where I ran what is known as a "congressional add" program so I got to play congressional level politics for almost 4 years to be successful. That was enough for me. Now I usually just keep my mouth shut because I'm unwilling to get involved in the solution ... Except for this thread ..... ) Luckily, my top end arrived yesterday so I can get back to training and stop trying to defend my somewhat less than popular ideas .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 As a retired Col i've never been the concsenus builder type. Careful. That's what they call a toxic leadership style these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I can stop trying to defend my less than popular ideas .... Looks like a whole lot of people disagree with you and feel that there is NO PROBLEM with our classification system. BUT, there are a whole bunch of us who AGREE with you - glad you brought up the subject - I believe it's worth discussing once in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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