bountyhunter Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Sigh. I'm sorry to be grumpy but we've had a few of these threads. Let's move on and talk about shooting. To state the obvious: if SW keeps shipping highly overpriced junk, then we SHOULD have these threads. Nobody posted anything untrue, just the facts. And people who are contemplating plunking down that quantity of money for a gun need to know the facts because some people can't do their own gun work. When they get a dog with a bunch of defects, they get a gun that is goig to spend a good part of it's life being shipped back to the factory (not being shot). IMHO, posting the truth in forums is the biggest "lever" consumers have to force manufacturers to stop selling junk. If we quietly accept the crap and say "well, it's just starting material" then we will keep paying $1300 for starting material. I am not happy when I get a defective gun so that makes me "grumpy". Edited January 31, 2015 by bountyhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blind bat Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) If Century doesn't get a pass for putting cheap AK barrels in straight why should S&W for doing the same thing on their premium line? I think people would be more than happy if they bought a "blem" gun from S&W where the barrel wasn't fitted correctly or the muzzle crown looked like my three year old went at it with a rat tail file. I bet if Armscor started making a 627 or 929 for 2/3rds of the price with the same quality, S&W would fix their QC issues real quick. Edited January 31, 2015 by blind bat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowrider Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I've said it before but I don't think S&W even has a "Performance Center" anymore. PC guns only have a different feature set. I want my barrel clocked properly, crowned properly and I want at least a rudimentary amount of deburring and attention to detail when I pay $1200+ for a gun. I DO NOT expect it to have a 5.75lb DA trigger and I'm okay with MIM internals, prefer them actually, they are easier to slick up and theoretically MIM part replacement is a drop in proposition. But when I open that box I want something that doesn't have to be repaired before the race mods start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Weird. With all the S&W revolvers I have handled, I don't remember seeing one that had a barrel misaligned enough to matter. I must not pay attention to that issue, apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuzinvinny Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 This weeks Shooting USA had a segment regarding the Performance Center. The segment talked about the major investment S&W recently made at the PC shop. Some new CNC machines and a new coordinate measuring machine. Apparently S&W has been outsourcing some of their PC work. The new machines will help bring that work back under S&W's roof. Perhaps threads like this helped spur S&W into action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 This weeks Shooting USA had a segment regarding the Performance Center. The segment talked about the major investment S&W recently made at the PC shop. Some new CNC machines and a new coordinate measuring machine. Apparently S&W has been outsourcing some of their PC work. The new machines will help bring that work back under S&W's roof. Perhaps threads like this helped spur S&W into action. I saw that too. I want to believe that good things will come from this. The jaded part of me is laughing out loud at that part of me. The patient part is taking a wait and see attitude. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebg3 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Recently a friend picked up a mid 90's 8 3/8" 629 and the barrel was turned enough that the rear sight ran out of adjustment to the left. It was sent back to Smith and they fixed the barrel free of charge. I have a 629-3 with a 6" barrel that is almost straight. To be perfect, it would need a slight adjustment. With newly manufatured revolvers, the maker should AT LEAST be able to put a barrel on straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boy Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 If you don't like Smith & Wesson quality then buy this.....put up or shut up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revoman Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 If you don't like Smith & Wesson quality then buy this.....put up or shut up What make it that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thehotrodpig Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 If you don't like Smith & Wesson quality then buy this.....put up or shut up Interesting first post.... I don't think that comes in 8 shot or cut for moon clips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boy Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 It is a Korth.........made in Germany. No rework on anything they made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm with Revoman...what is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thehotrodpig Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 It is a Korth.........made in Germany. No rework on anything they made.I guarantee that if they did make a suitable gun for the game, this crowd would still rework it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingmedicine Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 PC isnt the high end it used to be. Ive heard more horror stories then good storys. Its a sad fact, because for a while they did some great work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I could buy 5 S&Ws pay a good gun smith to fix them all and still have money left for TK's moonclips for the price of one Korth. They are pretty and very well made (spit and polish S&W forgot how to do) but for USPSA style competition the price does not justify the performance even if they made an 8-Shot 357 or 9mm cut for moonclip which they don't. Korth also created the Sky Marshal abomination and that alone is deserving of our scorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 My question would be, as someone who would really like to get into revolvers, is what would be the best course of action? Buy a used gun already set up to race (basically impossible it seems like) or buy a new one and fix the issues? What are the normal issues can I expect to encounter, and at what point do you send it back? It sounds like twisted barrels are the norm, but I don't know anything about forcing cones or all the other stuff mentioned here. Advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 My question would be, as someone who would really like to get into revolvers, is what would be the best course of action? Buy a used gun already set up to race (basically impossible it seems like) or buy a new one and fix the issues? What are the normal issues can I expect to encounter, and at what point do you send it back? It sounds like twisted barrels are the norm, but I don't know anything about forcing cones or all the other stuff mentioned here. Advice? I'm going to fix the forcing cone and crown problems myself. I borrowed the tools from a friend and it's fairly easy to do. I'll also clean the action, replace the hammer and springs myself. Of course, your revolver may not have any issues. I've had a chance to inspect mine and I'm pretty sure the forcing cone and crown need to be fixed. I'll inspect it closer when I get it home. If the barrel is so crooked that I can't adjust the sights, it goes back to S&W. I'm believe that the majority of S&W's guns are still put together correctly and we're just hearing the worst cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) It is a Korth.........made in Germany. No rework on anything they made.I guarantee that if they did make a suitable gun for the game, this crowd would still rework it. I don't think you can guarantee anything like that. But I don't think applying the term "rework" to fixing defects is accurate. Rework implies customizing, and I certainly wasn't doing that to get the gun to shoot. I didn't drop $1300 to order a gun so I could spend hours and hours fixing it. I wanted it to show up ready to shoot. Edited February 7, 2015 by bountyhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) I could buy 5 S&Ws pay a good gun smith to fix them all and still have money left for TK's moonclips for the price of one Korth. I'm not sure how that applies to the thread topic. If the SW PC ships defective junk, what another maker does isn't really relevant. SW should ship finished guns and if they can't do it for the price point advertised, either raise the price or go out of business. Don't keep shipping junk with gross defects. I tend to dispute the "price excuse" anyway since companies like STI have made hand fitted 1911's like the Trojan for many years and sold them for $1000 - $1100 price. A good 1911 requires as much fitting as a revo does, so I am not buying the cost excuse. But regardless, all I request is SW to stop shipping new guns that are fixer uppers. I'm tired of working unpaid as their QA department. Seems reasonable to me. Edited February 7, 2015 by bountyhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) It is a Korth.........made in Germany. No rework on anything they made.I guarantee that if they did make a suitable gun for the game, this crowd would still rework it. I don't think you can guarantee anything like that. But I don't think applying the term "rework" to fixing defects is accurate. Rework implies customizing, and I certainly wasn't doing that to get the gun to shoot. I didn't drop $1300 to order a gun so I could spend hours and hours fixing it. I wanted it to show up ready to shoot. You say you wanted the gun to show up ready to shoot. I didn't read all the posts but what exactly kept the gun from shooting? It didn't work at all? S&W does not build competition revolvers per say just like the car manufactures don't sell competition cars. They sell you the platform and if you want to race it you modify it to suit your needs. Many of the 627 V-Comps and .38 supers which make good comp guns are setting in the safes of collectors that don't even shoot them let alone turn them into comp guns. I have seen some screwed up guns come out of S&W(not just the new ones either) but they are very unusual and for every over torqued barrel I have seen I probably see 20+ guns that are lined up perfectly. I was showing a shooter my 625-3 at a match a couple of years ago in the safe area. He was checking out the action work and when I handed him the revolver the first thing he did was look at the barrel to see if it was clocked right . He asked if I knew the barrel was crooked. I looked at the gun and it was off such a small amount that you had to really look at it to see it. I just told him I had owned the gun 20 years and it hadn't hurt anything. He said I should fix that. I said no way in hell as the gun would shoot one big hole at 25 yards and I wasn't touching it. He did this before even checking out the action work. Got to love the power of the Internet. All manufactures make some bad ones and it sucks to get one. To expect a blueprinted race ready gun from a manufacture would cost way more than a PC gun that basically is a different barrel profile and grips and a nice gun rug. 929's also get a TI cylinder also. S&W builds the guns for the consumer using factory ammo not the competition shooter using hotter reloads and even different calibers(38 SC in the 357 guns). I have shot quite a few K,L, and N frame revolvers that have come thru the shop and I can say that ALL of them have been more accurate than I am. The guns I work on are for USPSA, ICORE, and IDPA and are shot at speed while on you feet and unsupported. Not off a rest. I have seen some revolvers that have forcing cones that are not cut right and rough muzzle crowns that looked terrible but made 1 big hole in the target and were amazingly accurate. You should always shoot them before condemning them. IMO Do I wish every S&W revolver was perfect? YES I do even the old ones. Edited February 7, 2015 by Bosshoss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) It is a Korth.........made in Germany. No rework on anything they made.I guarantee that if they did make a suitable gun for the game, this crowd would still rework it. I don't think you can guarantee anything like that. But I don't think applying the term "rework" to fixing defects is accurate. Rework implies customizing, and I certainly wasn't doing that to get the gun to shoot. I didn't drop $1300 to order a gun so I could spend hours and hours fixing it. I wanted it to show up ready to shoot. You say you wanted the gun to show up ready to shoot. I didn't read all the posts but what exactly kept the gun from shooting? It didn't work at all? I posted the details of the problems with this gun in another thread. The trigger strut was defective (I posted that picture here) and the jagged end tore up the rebound slide. I had to replace both. The WORST defect was that the recoil shield wasn't square to the cylinder and the gap between the rear of the cylinder and the shield was below spec. The gap tapered from about .059" at the top to about .055" at the bottom if my memory serves me (been about 5 years). The point is there was insufficient clearance for the heads of the cases and the cylinder would eventually bind and eventually seize up as the cases worked they way into the "squeeze" area toward the bottom. I ended up having to hand file/stone the recoil shield to square it up. A major PITA and a lot of hand work. So, to answer your question: It didn't work at all? It would fire two or three times until the cylinder bound up. I define that as not working. BTW: that is the third SW I have had to repair with that exact problem (insufficient clearance at the recoil shield and shield face not square.) The core of the problem was that the barrel was set too far back and that meant they set the cylinder too far back to get clearance at the forcing cone, and still did not have enough because they took a file to the cone (see pictures I posted). I don't know why the cylinder opening in the frames was not square, as it was parallel above and below the cylinder but clearly off at the rear. Bottom line, I don't like paying 1300 for a new gun that needs a ton of gunsmithing. Edited February 7, 2015 by bountyhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Buy a Glock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Buy a Glock. I do own a Glock. SW revos are still my favorite guns as evidence by the fact the gun that resides in my nightstand is a 686+. It's just sad that their production and quality has degenerated to the point that it is an anomaly when you see a new gun with no glaring defects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Buy a Glock. I do own a Glock. SW revos are still my favorite guns as evidence by the fact the gun that resides in my nightstand is a 686+. It's just sad that their production and quality has degenerated to the point that it is an anomaly when you see a new gun with no glaring defects. Yep. buy a Glock. Listening to you whine about the same gun for 4(?) years is getting old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Buy a Glock. I do own a Glock. SW revos are still my favorite guns as evidence by the fact the gun that resides in my nightstand is a 686+. It's just sad that their production and quality has degenerated to the point that it is an anomaly when you see a new gun with no glaring defects. Yep. buy a Glock. Listening to you whine about the same gun for 4(?) years is getting old. Well, you just contributed a lot to the thread. BTW: who started the thread? OH, yeah.... IT WAS SOMEBODY ELSE WHO HAD A SIMILAR EXPERIENCE FOUR YEARS AFTER MINE. In case you still don't get it, I'll explain it more slowly so you can. People WHINE about getting screwed on internet forums to let other people be warned so they won't get screwed in the same way. They also do it to force manufacturers to clean up their act or face going out of business. Listening to you whine about the same gun for 4(?) years is getting old. Then why don't you go someplace else where people enjoy spending $1300 for guns that are full of defects? People here don't. Edited February 10, 2015 by bountyhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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