Point Series

[Gary Stevens]

We, the BOD, are considering modifications to the Point Series to make it more interesting and viable. The alternative to that is to kill the program.

I am interested in hearing from you who have shot the series or are thinking about it as to how we can make this better and keep it.

So take your best shots.

[Rob Boudrie]

On idea which has been discussed is making the point series decision one for the match rather than the individual shooter.

If a match decides to be "point series", everyone in the match would be in the point series - which means the match fee would go up $10, much of which would go back to the series winners.

So,

1. Is this a good idea?

2. If we do it, should we mandate that Area Championships be Point Series?

[Ron Rodgers]

Leave the decision to participate in the PS up to the shooter, not the Match Director!

Match fees should be kept as low as possible. Its not fair to increase match fees for everyone, when only a few want to play the Point Series game.

[Gary Stevens]

It is also possible that the MD would decide to absorb the extra cost and the match fee would remain the same as last year.

[SmittyFL]

I like the idea of A point series. But my problem with the way it is now is it requires to many matches to have a chance. I can't afford the time or money to shoot the required number of majors. I would imagine that is an issue with many other shooters as well.

I'm not sure of the solution. If you have say the best 4 or 5 matches used for score then it will be a product of which matches had the "least" competition to allow you to get a higher score. So that probably wouldn't work either. I may just be SOL, which is fine. I'd still rather their be a point series even if I can't participate.

The match being a part of the point series that Rob suggested sounds feasible. At least that way shooters could be in it, whether they shoot enough matches or not. Plus it would up the reward for the winners which would increase participation I think. What's an extra 10 bucks? I don't think to many folks would have a problem with that. When shooting majors, it's not the entry fee so much as all the other costs. Travel, hotel, food, beer, etc. that make it expensive.

[Chriss Grube]

It's not so much of a point series as much as a Who can go shoot the most big matches now. I don't see any real point in it other than a trophy that means you shot a bunch more matches than the next guy. I think it is a waste of time and should go the way of the AWB.

[MikeFoley]

I have participated in PS for both years in all of the matches I could get to. I would not do it again, as I have lost interest in the concept as it is today. The nationals points are still not updated, and I only shot 2 state, 1 area, and Nats.

I will probably shoot more majors in 2005 than any year yet, but I don't think I am getting my $10 worth to wait for the counts to be right and get updated. I would love to see a way to compete throughout the year with others in my division and class.

Maybe there is a way to tie this to an ROI for the shooter. Give points for multiple performance like it is now, plus give points for submitting stages that get used at major events, points for the number of classifiers shot in the year, points for working major events, points for articles published in the Front Sight, etc. There would still need to be limit on how many events could count toward a perfect score, kind of like the best of # used now, but would encompass participation with performance at every level.

[Barrettone]

Gary,

I agree that as it stands right now, the winner is the one who is able to attend the most matches, and not necessarily the best shooter. It needs to be participated in on a larger scale, if we are to crown a true Points Series Champion. I think that we need to make it mandatory that all matches Level II (Sanctioned) or higher must participate in the points series. If you make it a blanket deal, then there is no discrimination. I believe that all MD's should simply have to budget it out without passing the cost along. Now keep an open mind and read everything below before you say: "They'll just build it into the match fee anyway!!!".

I think that in the long run, the draw of points series competitors (additional revenue) will outweigh the costs. The average upper-level match (level II through Area) fee is about $100. For every points series junkie that the match draws, it would take 9 non-points series people to cancel (considering the $10 points series fee). I think the programs popularity would soar, and match attendance would increase, as people would have a year-long interest in their performance, rather than looking at only one match (look at Nascar and the Nextel Cup Series and its following). And talk about livening the pot...the stakes would be high, and you would get a viable competition!

If it were mandated, more matches would be available regionally, and therefore it would not just be available to the fortunate few who can make it to 4 sectionals, two "other matches", two areas, and the nats. I would just make it one area match and 4 sectionals to regionalize it, and have eight area champions from each division and class. Those eight from each division and class would then have earned a slot at the nationals (nats would have to be late in the year, or we would have to adjust the USPSA calendar year - July 1 to July 1?), and these individuals would duke it out for supremacy on USPSA's largest stage (240 shooters if applicable-480 if you made it the top two per area, class and division).

Now, you have fair nationals slot distribution with the "best of the best" and it is once again an "honor" to attend nats not just a slot you purchase or received via some arbitrary "first 8 announced tournaments". If you want to go to nats, place high in your division (locally of course), or scrounge around for the 360 or 120 "at-large" slots available that I mentioned in the above two scenarios (usually there are 600 slots at an all-in-one nats). Multiple nats could host even more.

Eventually, it could aid in true classifications (match performace based) so we don't have "paper classifications" anymore. Additionally, even though not everyone shoots "majors", it could be a springboard to eventually attaining a "true" classification system. Maybe we could say that you would have to shoot a sectional to get classified in a division??? I don't want to make IPSC a "richy-rich" sport, but I don't think that it is too much to ask for a person to go to a match where he or she can be adequately measured for a $100 match fee. Afterall, how much do these individuals pay to shoot at multiple one-classifier matches anyway before they attain classification...it has to be a comparable amount, save the special classifiers.

If they don't like how they classified...go to another neighboring sectional / major. And could you imagine the match attendance at the sectionals / majors??? It would be a bonanza. People would still keep coming to local matches though, because the venue is less costly to the average shooter (around $20 per match plus no lost brass), so I don't think it would hurt USPSA at the local level. We could scrap the antiquated and innaccurate classification system, and it would be a hell of a lot easier to process a much more accurrate asessment of the shooters abilities.

World shoot slots could even be given based on the outcomes of these classifications over two or three years (rather than that silly every-other area match idea-who the hell thunk that up anyway?), and you wouldn't have to be a "richy-rich" with the necessary sponsors trotting around the country spending exhorbenant amounts of money to show your shooting prowess, and qualify for slots. It would all be regionalized, and those that want to still travel, could, but the field would be level for all.

In short, it could kill four birds with one stone (points series, nationals slot distribution, world shoot slots and classification). This idea would take sweeping changes, but it would definitely go a long way toward solving several problems in USPSA. Just my .02 FWIW. Any of the above ideas could be tweaked to form a possible solution. I just thought I would throw out some ideas.

Your thoughts???

Jeff

[dajarrel]

The match being a part of the point series that Rob suggested sounds feasible. At least that way shooters could be in it, whether they shoot enough matches or not. Plus it would up the reward for the winners which would increase participation I think. What's an extra 10 bucks?

I would prefer not to be enrolled in a contest by others and pay an additional entry fee to that contest to "up the reward for the winners"

Even if I shot enough matches and was shooting at a level that would allow me to be competitive in the Point Series to justify entry to the same, I would still require it to be MY decision.

I may not speak for many, but I do like to speak for myself.

FWIW

dj

OBTW,

what is an extra 10 bucks? Not much, other than it's mine and I would prefer to spend it where I deemed it necessary.

dj

[hopalong]

Change the way funds are divied out at the end of the year....

Last years revolver champ ended up with LESS than the guy who won the same class as he was classified.... And for that reason decided NOT to try and Defend his title.

Him winning the overall got him the overall $$$$ BUT being he was the same class as the 2nd guy the class winner got more $$$$ due to how they devide the money.

I have shot in 7 or 8 majors and have paid for all them (points series) and have traveled to some matches that I would not have gone to if I had not been in the series and that is 1 thing the series is trying to do, get more "not local" participation and it seems to be working good work guys.

If things go the way they look then the same will happen again this year in the Revolver division again, Yes I know But there are not that many revolver shooters but Mathematically it could happen in the other divisions too.

Go to $15 per shooter, keep the same amount going to USPSA, the club and add 1 more to the class winner and add the extra 4 to the overall that would make the chase a little more interesting.

I went to 2 sectionals and 1 area match that I would not have gone to had I not been in the points series costing 3-5 hundred dollars each entry fees and all so that would make up to 15 hundred dollars I spent due to me getting in the points series, I really enjoyed the matches and am glad I went would I do it again?

I think so, would I get back in the points series? NO even if I do good in it as it seems to me that if you don't shoot open, or Limited the numbers of participants are too low and thus a waste of money.

And I have to dissagree on the idea of the more you can make the better you will do... Look at the Revolver Division results the guy who has lead all year and has shot 14 points series matches in not winning a guy who has shot only 8 (almost half as many) is winning.

Gary, If maybe USPSA could get some coorporate sponsors Like NASCAR does with NEXTELL and get them to "liven" it up some I am sure that would help, not only with getting more participation but get USPSA in the "Market" with the gun community thus getting all of us more recoginition.

Hope that helps.

Hopalong

I too think that participation should be left up to the competitors and not a "Blanket" mandatory entry.

[shred]

I say kill it. Points-series as it is now is a total non-starter for anybody that lives a long way from another state (say, central or south Texas, for example ). It's a six-hour drive one-way to the second section match from here.

If it's going to be mandatory, it needs to be a service USPSA provides and paid for that way, not by screwing the local non-travelling shooters that A-support their local Area match and B-probably helped work and set it up.

Kill the cash payback while we're at it. Has anybody said anything good about the payback yet?

[Nik Habicht]

It is also possible that the MD would decide to absorb the extra cost and the match fee would remain the same as last year.

Baloney. Even if that logic holds --- it really means that the match entry fee could drop by $10.- per shooter. I'm with Shred on this one --- kill it.

[Barrettone]

Hopalong:

All due respect, but I don't believe a gentleman by the name of Miculek will be crowned Points Series Champion in Revolver, so I cannot say that the "best man" won. It was simply a guy who could attend a lot of majors, and wanted a trophy. I'm not trying to belittle the revolver champions accomplishment, but if EVERYONE is not included, then it is a false title. The second place guy couldn't attend nats...a multiplier of 4!!! That's the only reason he didn't win, and the current # 1 Revolver guy could mail it in!!! Hell, you can't win if you don't go to nats...it is virtually impossible. That is why it needs to be mandatory, or it doesn't pass muster IMHO. I'm going to recieve (more than likely) an "empty" C-class trophy for revolver. I want to be measured against the best...not the guy who could attend the matches. That is why I proposed what I did above. By regionalizing the series, you get better involvement. Jerry probably attends an area and four sectionals. I would get an accurate guage of where I stand if his results were a part of the points series (due to it being mandated). He wouldn't have to register (he wouldn't anyway...he doesn't really need another trophy), and our classification debacle in revolver would be somewhat alleviated if we did the classification system via the "majors". Hope this clarifies.

Jeff

[Matthew_Mink]

Definately don't kill it. I think the Points Series is a good idea. But, it suffers from a lot of things. One is the fact that it is buried on the USPSA webpage. It should at least have its own page with a button off of the homepage. USPSA doesn't really give the PS the publicity it needs. Case in point is the article written in FS after the 2003 PS. Heavy on the Open/Limited race, light on the Prod/Rev race and nonesxistant on the L10 race. Kinda a slap in the face for a division or 2. The participation this year was dismal due to a few things, and one of those is the fact that some people just can't make the matches due to their home location. And after last years crappy payout, a lot of people didn't shoot it again. I think if some sponsors could be had for the PS, that would make it interesting, like Division winner gets a gun (relevant to the division shot) and the cash (bigger purse), Class winners get a big payout, etc.... Heck with a little armtwisting and bribery I could probably get CZ to donate a gun if the program continues. How about the other big companies like Glock, STI, SVI, S&W etc..., they could all donate a gun too. That would increase participation better than anything. Make it almost a National event that it should have been. Big payout, big coverage, big news, a really big deal. Not something that currently half of the USPSA members don't even know who won last year.

[hopalong]

Barretone,

You are 100% correct in your observation, the Best "Man" did and will Not win in the Revolver Division, and that is not nessicarily what the points series is about.

The points series is about consistancy through the year, for those who decide to enter the thing. Not to see who the best shooter in the divisions are... That is what the Nationals, and Area Matches are about.

Regionalizing the series IMHO would help to a certain extent if and that is a BIG IF a legitimate system could be devised and reward the regional competitors with Slots to the Nationals ect. Kind of like how the Pro Bass fishermen get slots to the BassMasters Classic, Might take a look at that series and see if it could be used as a Model.

The B.A.S.S. assn has a non-pro series similar to what we are trying but the reward is fishing in the Bassmasters Classic in the Non-Pro Division, it is pretty simple....

your local Club has their Monthly tournament, at the end of the Year the top 6 get to go to the State Tournament, the to 10 at the state tournament get to go to a regional tournament (8 I think) the to 10 at each region get to go to the BassMasters Classic.

Each fisherman pays his own way, the state and up tournaments have a payback according to entries so it is not as Hard on the guys making the trip to the next tournament and so forth until the BassMasters Classic where there is HEAVY Coorporate Sponsorship and Prize funds.

Here is an example of how we might do it....

at the Club Level at the end of the year Club Champs per Division and Class Winners Per division Qualify for the "Series" STate Match. the Division winners and Class winners There will then Qualify for a "Regional Match" the Division Winners and top 3 in each class there will Qualify for a Slot to the Nationals Along with the NORMAL Advanced slot winners then offer any "AT LARGE" Slots if there are any left (More than Likely)

The folks at Club level will Qualify for the state Match of 2006 in 2005 and so everyone will have an Idea wheather they want to go try or not, If not the next guy in line can be offered the slot thus having a FULL state match to go from.

As far as Mandantory, That would Make it similar to the Nextell Cup in Nascar,

All races qualify for Points series and everyone knows that when they pay.

BUT

USPSA is grassroots Club level participation so you going to charge more for a club match so some guy on the otherside of the country who wants to participate in the series can win it? and what if You don't even want to be part of the series to boot?

Maybe you could Mandate Area and Nationals as Series Matches and work with that, then shooters could choose to go or not to go.

Maybe that will muddy things up here, I hope it will help.

Hopalong

[ErikW]

I'll add to the consensus that it's too travel-intensive. How about regionalizing it?

[Barrettone]

I think that somewhere in between what hopalong and I suggested lies the answer. Mathew Mink makes a good observation as well, it needs to be a big deal. Hell, if we can get 8 guns on a prize table for a sectional, we can give guns to a Points Series Champion. All it takes is a little more effort. Why do we not have a points series chairman for such things??? Someone to spearhead the effort. I'll do it, and make it work!!! As Matt said...it just takes a little arm-twisting to make it viable and add a little sauce to the mix. Where is the advertising??? The junior program has a venue...why not the Points Series? The standings should be in EVERY issue of FrontSight!!! Someone is asleep at the switch. You cannot start a program of this magnitude and let it flounder by leaving it on auto-pilot. It simply needs more leadership. I do feel, however, that the best shooter should win the series. If all are enrolled, the cream will come to the top. NASCAR and the B.A.S.S. association reveal both the best, AND most consistent person as champion. Right now, it is like we have the "D" and the "V" with no "C" (please excuse the crude analogy).

Jeff

(Officially thrown hat in ring)

[MikeFoley]

Matthew Mink's idea of sponsorship for the PS is awesone. Better publicity would be a huge asset to the PS.

Hopalong's idea for an area wide(not to put words in his post) would be a lot of fun, and more people would travel within their area.

Barrettone has some real vision for the PS, but if the top guys are gonna win the PS, then what is the point, don't we already know how awesome they are?

Everyone should follow Merricks' class act and thank Gary Stevens for being the type of Area Director he is, one who represents the people who elected him, and not just a yes man. He is a great AD, and I hope he shoots 3Gun at our club tomorrow.

Maybe I will stay in the point series, it looks like there is enough interest to make it better going forward.

[MikeFoley]

We're posting all at the same time, but Jeff's volunteering shows his committment to positive change. I feel motivated already. The point series has been like a plant with very little water and sunlight. Let's water it and put it near a window, not piss on it and leave it in the dark.

[Barrettone]

fomeister:

You are correct in stating that Gary Stevens is one Hell of an AD, and we are damn lucky to have him. It is his starting of topic discussions such as this one that shows his devotion to bettering our sport. I also agree that we just need to cultivate this thing to make it work better. We'll see how it all shakes out. I am a big picture kind of guy, and I look at the problem as a whole (not just Points Series, but EVERYTHING). While what I say may look good on paper, you don't promote change in this organization quickly...especially sweeping changes like I outlined. It is like getting a herd of buffalo moving in one direction...it takes time. Talking about how it could be perfect all the way around doesn't hurt though.

Jeff

[Flexmoney]

Yes...a big thanks to Gary for asking and to Rob for joining in...it's good to see the BOD seeking opinions.

Now...how about some Econ 101.

Unless something changes...BIG TIME...on the money tree, we are looking at shuffling around the same piles of money that we already have.

If we go with the average match fee ($100) that Jeff used (it doens't matter what the real number is...as long as we are close), putting $10/shooter into the PS pile is taking $10/shooter out of some other pile. That's 10%

That $10 has to come from somewhere:

1. It could come from the shooter's wallet...which would mean we are talking about an acrossed the board increase of 10% for Major match fees.

2. It could come out of the USPSA budget. (which also means it comes out of the shooter's wallet)

3. It could come out of the match budget. That would decrease the profit to the match. If we are talking about 150 shooters at a match...that is $1,500. (I don't know about you guys, but I don't think our section level match can afford to send an extra $1,500 to USPSA...for any reason.)

The same thing goes for our current supply of sponsors. Will they all be increasing their sponsorship budgets to add to the PS pile? Or, will they be pulling a gun from some other match's prize table?

That is just the money...

[Little Bill]

I too would like to thank the members of the BOD for seeking input. It is great to know that many voices can be heard when asked in public.

My view mirrors shred's. It is too difficult / expensive to travel from my location (Kansas City) to the neccesary amount of sectional / area matches.

The money that is required to fund the program / resources / prizes / etc, could be better spent, IMO.

[wearing flamesuit]

It is easy to predict the winners of the PS right now.

1. It is the people that can travel to many matches (money, time, location)

2. The GM that kicks the most butt - the most often {read: sponsored shooter}

3. The A,B,C,D that can do #1 (see above), and is probably sandbagging to stay in the class for the point series trophy / payout

* (I bet M class is ferocious battle all year in most classes)

[/wearing flamesuit]

I think those are the harshest words I have ever uttered in BE-land, but I think they ring true.

[gmshtr]

Hi Gary,

I've discussed this with several people, Dave Thomas being one of them, and this was my suggestion.

1. Reduce the number of matches needed to compete:

OTHERS: Best 1 finish (percentage)

STATE/SECTIONALS: Best 3 finishes (percentage)

AREAS: Best 1 finish (percentage x 2)

NATIONALS: (Percentage x 3)

2. Change the match registration procedure:

The shooters should be able to join the Point Series at any match, just like it has been the last two years. $10 is reasonable, and should be left alone. However, if a match decides to make itself a "Point Series registered match," then $5 should be added to the match fee, and later sent to USPSA as Point Series funds. Therefore, if a match has 150 shooters (PS participants or not), $750 gets added to the fund. The respective National Championship should alot $10 per shooter, since it always comes down to the Nationals, anyway. These Point Series price adjustments could be made either by adding $5 to the normal match fee, or by incorporating the costs through the match. Trust me, an extra $5 isn't going to break anyone's back, especially after travel, hotel, food, and ammo costs!

3. Do the math!

Based on last year's matches and number of shooters, the above method would've provided over $30,000.

4. Make it for the shooters, not for profit.

With this kind of prize money made available to anyone willing to pay a simple $10 registration fee for the Series, there will be MANY more people joining it. Use the registration fees from the individual shooters for USPSA profit. If 400 shooters register, then that's an easy $4K for the organization. The participating Match fees should be awarded to the shooters.

I'd be willing to bet anything that this would increase participation not only the Series, but in any participating match. Winning the National Point Series should be more prestigious than anything.

Phil

[Jake Di Vita]

I agree with Phil. The point series will ONLY work if there is an incentive to do it. And thus far, there really hasn't been.

[MikeFoley]

Phil's idea makes perfect sense.