kurtm Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 (edited) Fireman489 as Russel has pointed out S.O.F. was started in 1980, not 1985...It was called the World Championship 3-Gun match and it was indeed attended by people from here and abroad. Superstition Mountain Mystery 3-Gun was started in 1995, These were big matches 250 people plus with $100,000s on the prize table and winning S.O.F in the old days was up to a $10,000 check....that sounds kinda "sanctioned" to me! Edited October 28, 2013 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Fireman489 as Russel has pointed out S.O.F. was started in 1980, not 1985...It was called the World Championship 3-Gun match and it was indeed attended by people from here and abroad. Superstition Mountain Mystery 3-Gun was started in 1995, These were big matches 250 people plus with $100,000s on the prize table and winning S.O.F in the old days was up to a $10,000 check....that sounds kinda "sanctioned" to me! Was it at some point absorbed into the SOF marketing rather than being called WC3Gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 I don't remember the exact year but I shot in the first USPSA 3 gun National at Berry and it had a fair turnout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 It was always called S.O.F. World Championship 3-Gun. When Col. Brown moved the Match to Raton, the guys who had put in on in Vegas continued on with World Championship 3-Gun, dropping the "S.O.F". SWAT magazine was the backer of these two matches, mean while, two brothers put on the last two "real" S.O.F. matches in Raton. When Col. Brown decided to pull out entirely the Two Brothers and two of thier friends decided to continue on running a large match. Since they were all the guys who ran the local 3-gun club in the Denver area called Rocky Mountain 3-gun...they merely just applied the local name to the large match and J.P. Enterprises became the main match sponsor instead of S.O.F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 There still isn't a full blown sanctioning body for 3 gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangeman711 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Don't forget Vern Hayes who was on the Armalite Team with Cook and Cooley. Also Michael Horne who worked with Col. Brown till they split up and Michael put on the last SWAT World Championship 3 Gun Tactical Match in Laughlin Nev. about 10 yrs. ago if my memory serves me. Lots of history to 3Gun that not everyone remembers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Actualy there were two Michaels that put the match on, Mike Horn who's nephew I worked with, and Mike Wadalich. His wife Brenda did the scoring. I am still in contact with Johny and Cathy Wilson who always built stages and R.O.ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 It was always called S.O.F. World Championship 3-Gun. When Col. Brown moved the Match to Raton, the guys who had put in on in Vegas continued on with World Championship 3-Gun, dropping the "S.O.F". SWAT magazine was the backer of these two matches, mean while, two brothers put on the last two "real" S.O.F. matches in Raton. When Col. Brown decided to pull out entirely the Two Brothers and two of thier friends decided to continue on running a large match. Since they were all the guys who ran the local 3-gun club in the Denver area called Rocky Mountain 3-gun...they merely just applied the local name to the large match and J.P. Enterprises became the main match sponsor instead of S.O.F. I know those guys !!! One is kinda goofy in a cool way and knows a lot of james Bond quotes, the other.... well he's just plain weird .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman489 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 pretty cool ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 (edited) It was always called S.O.F. World Championship 3-Gun. When Col. Brown moved the Match to Raton, the guys who had put in on in Vegas continued on with World Championship 3-Gun, dropping the "S.O.F". SWAT magazine was the backer of these two matches, mean while, two brothers put on the last two "real" S.O.F. matches in Raton. When Col. Brown decided to pull out entirely the Two Brothers and two of thier friends decided to continue on running a large match. Since they were all the guys who ran the local 3-gun club in the Denver area called Rocky Mountain 3-gun...they merely just applied the local name to the large match and J.P. Enterprises became the main match sponsor instead of S.O.F. Ah...those were the days, we had 3 gun matches just about every 2-3 weeks, from north to south of the front range. Over the years, match sponsors came and gone, but I'm glad JP stayed with us To the OP, just buy what you want and come shoot. The price for Armalite 3 G is pretty reasonable and it is much better than just a good start. I would change out the muzzle device to one of the high efficiency brakes most talked about here in this forum. Edited October 28, 2013 by PacMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Someone needs to catalog a history of the sport before everyone involved dies off. Chad Adams did exactly that: http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-3-Gun-Competition-Adams/dp/1440228671 Chad talked to several people and got some information. I had done a bunch of research on the origins and gave that all to Chad which is included in his book. The "History" chapter is Chapter 3. Raul Walters won in 1980, but names like Enos, Leatham, Plaxco, Cirillo, Fowler were on the list. They primarily used .308 battle rifles, single stack 1911s, and Remington 1100s. Yeah, I was only in middle school, but I had moved up from my BB gun by that time. I enjoy history and I am glad Chad took the time to get the facts sorted out and then memorialize it. As for the OP, I've won 2 Armalite rifles at 3Gun matches, so they have been on tables. If my memory is correct, they had rifles on tables at RM3G from 2005 to at least 2009, maybe later. We have received donations from Armalite through 2012 for some smaller regional matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 There are a lot of moving parts in this thread! Great little bit of history about Armalite found on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite I find it interesting that there are feelings about 3 gun being a lost soul and the sum of its parts need to be wrangled into a sanctioned body. I say phooey! Talk about politics and redtape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 It was always called S.O.F. World Championship 3-Gun. When Col. Brown moved the Match to Raton, the guys who had put in on in Vegas continued on with World Championship 3-Gun, dropping the "S.O.F". SWAT magazine was the backer of these two matches, mean while, two brothers put on the last two "real" S.O.F. matches in Raton. When Col. Brown decided to pull out entirely the Two Brothers and two of thier friends decided to continue on running a large match. Since they were all the guys who ran the local 3-gun club in the Denver area called Rocky Mountain 3-gun...they merely just applied the local name to the large match and J.P. Enterprises became the main match sponsor instead of S.O.F. I know those guys !!! One is kinda goofy in a cool way and knows a lot of james Bond quotes, the other.... well he's just plain weird .......... ....that's a Smith & Wesson; and you've had your six.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 (edited) It was always called S.O.F. World Championship 3-Gun. When Col. Brown moved the Match to Raton, the guys who had put in on in Vegas continued on with World Championship 3-Gun, dropping the "S.O.F". SWAT magazine was the backer of these two matches, mean while, two brothers put on the last two "real" S.O.F. matches in Raton. When Col. Brown decided to pull out entirely the Two Brothers and two of thier friends decided to continue on running a large match. Since they were all the guys who ran the local 3-gun club in the Denver area called Rocky Mountain 3-gun...they merely just applied the local name to the large match and J.P. Enterprises became the main match sponsor instead of S.O.F. I know those guys !!! One is kinda goofy in a cool way and knows a lot of james Bond quotes, the other.... well he's just plain weird .......... ....that's a Smith & Wesson; and you've had your six.... O'wait....could it be a man of mystery or misery that made sucha post! Edited October 28, 2013 by Sterling White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 It was always called S.O.F. World Championship 3-Gun. When Col. Brown moved the Match to Raton, the guys who had put in on in Vegas continued on with World Championship 3-Gun, dropping the "S.O.F". SWAT magazine was the backer of these two matches, mean while, two brothers put on the last two "real" S.O.F. matches in Raton. When Col. Brown decided to pull out entirely the Two Brothers and two of thier friends decided to continue on running a large match. Since they were all the guys who ran the local 3-gun club in the Denver area called Rocky Mountain 3-gun...they merely just applied the local name to the large match and J.P. Enterprises became the main match sponsor instead of S.O.F. I know those guys !!! One is kinda goofy in a cool way and knows a lot of james Bond quotes, the other.... well he's just plain weird .......... ....that's a Smith & Wesson; and you've had your six.... Yey !!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 (edited) There are a lot of moving parts in this thread! Great little bit of history about Armalite found on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite I find it interesting that there are feelings about 3 gun being a lost soul and the sum of its parts need to be wrangled into a sanctioned body. I say phooey! Talk about politics and redtape. Amen my friend! Had that same discussion here years ago when USPSA wanted to get in the 'game' and we witnessed the birth of 'Outlaw 3-G' matches. ...Of course, this thread is drifting into the abyss Edited October 28, 2013 by PacMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClutchUSMC Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 So I should be spending my money and touting Ernie Hill speed leather since thats what was cool in 1985? If the woman you married in '85 hadn't put out since 99 would you still be married? Thanks for the entertainment it's always fun to see Kurt and JT battle, but I'd rather buy a gun from someone I have seen support the sport in the few years I've done it than rely on the idea that the helped out alot in the year I was born. But hey I load quads so what the heck do I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Don't forget Vern Hayes who was on the Armalite Team with Cook and Cooley. Also Michael Horne who worked with Col. Brown till they split up and Michael put on the last SWAT World Championship 3 Gun Tactical Match in Laughlin Nev. about 10 yrs. ago if my memory serves me. Lots of history to 3Gun that not everyone remembers. i remember those days, eddie. vern still shoots a bit in the norcal area b4 i moved from kali. and yep, still uses a ta-11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Wow Tyler, so what you are saying is the minute a company doesn't sponsor stuff ("put out" I beleive you said) to the level "you" think they should you are going to recommend to any and all NOT to buy product from them? Is that the message the "new" generation of 3-gunners want to send to companies that have gone out of their way for "the sport"?? Let take Ernie Hill...would you say to your friend who want to buy a real nice concealment rig for his carry pistol....."Never buy from Ernie Hill because they don't sponsor 3-gun??? Outstanding my man! It is this kind of forward thinking that has changed the face of "the sport"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClutchUSMC Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) Really I was saying that in the 40 or so matches I've shot a year since 2010 I haven't seen 1 single armalite rifle on a prize table or 1 shooter who was sponsored by armalite. I may have missed them, but I have seen 100s of colt, stag, dpms, and doublestars out there. They want to exploit our market and make a "3gun" rifle, which is most likely some milspec junk with a ss barrel and a comp on the end, but they don't want actual input or to support our sport. If I saw you running around in a jersey with armalite on it then I would give them more credit. But until they help the sport then I would in no way recommend their products to people that want to be a part of said sport. Tell me why I would recommend their rifle over a stag, dpms, doublestar, or colt? I doubt any of the 5 have any real performance difference for most shooters they are marketed too. But the other 4 companies support shooters and matches at all levels... and get their input in designing their product. Let's be honest. Some marketing guy in Geneseo said "This 3gun thing is kinda big maybe we should market to them?" And then some engineer said, "JP we should copy JP" and then some accountant said, "That would cost way to much" so the engineer said "Well get me a stag, doublestar, dpms, and colt and I can rip them off" But I do not think for one second that the current management/ownership of Armalite cares at all about 3gun or 3gunners so I won't recommend their products to people who are looking for a 3gun rifle. Edited October 29, 2013 by ClutchUSMC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I doubt, that if this reply was forwarded to Armalite along with a request for them to re-enter sponsorship in 3-gun it would be received well, although you do make your point concisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 "exploit our market".....huh? Really....no really. no really did you have to go there? What happened to the good Ol' American spirit of capitalism.... How dare we punish those looking to jump on the band wagon that have not payed for a ticket at the ticket station. O'wait, I can read all about the history of 3g if I buy it at Amazon. If you look back on the company contributions to the AR system I would say that they help build the ticket station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Here's the brutal truth regarding sponsoring matches; the same relatively small group (compared to gun owners as a whole) of people shoot them. There are now more matches than ever and sponsorship requirements keep increasing. Sponsors donate product as a form of advertising; are they really getting their money's worth out of it? In a lot of cases they're really not, they do it because they themselves are participants or want to help keep the sport going. If you haven't seen a lot of Armalite stuff on prize tables, they probably don't have any of their staff actively involved in the sport and they're donating it to the NRA, a veterans group, or any other of the hundreds of sponsorship requests a rifle company gets requests for. Also donating something to have it sold for $0.50 on the dollar actually has a negative effect on the perceived value of your product. I've been on all sides of this as the guy handling sponsorship requests for matches and soliciting prizes for matches. Good will isn't quantifiable, sales figures are...how do you convince a company's owner to donate stuff for a match when there isn't a way to show how much money in sales will be generated from it? Edited October 30, 2013 by SinistralRifleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Well stated Russel! and if you think 3-gunning is a huge portion of any companies market, think again! Oh sure there are the folks that want a rifle Like Keith's or Daniel's...( J.P. by the way), but this is a VERY SMALL percent of the market for them. Instead of saying "I will never support them" we ought to be glad for anything they do, or did. I for one will never say "don't buy Armalite" because they were there when almost NO ONE ELSE WAS!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 "exploit our market".....huh? Really....no really. no really did you have to go there? What happened to the good Ol' American spirit of capitalism.... Unfortunately, that spirit has been infected by a virus called "ninja-socialism" since 2008... Regardless of how they play, Armalite is still on our side IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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