Headshots or shoot between the no shoots?

[GrumpyOne]

I love those type of target arrays. It's my chance to get a head of the competition a little. A good many shooters at my level don't have the discipline and patience to slow down and get the hits. I'm a slow shooter anyhow, so it's nothing out of the ordinary for me! Lower A zone is the way to go.

But, but....you're a sandbagger too! How can you reconcile the two disciplines?

[jacketjoed]

Shot 2 stages with target like this at our club special classifier. Was trying out limited for the first time, shot the heads the first stage and the bodies the second one. First stage had one ns hit in the upper shoulder, on the second stage shot it clean in the body, my times and hit factors were similar, with the body shots just edging out the head shots. so i think either way the both require precision shots so its a toss up. Had a GM open and a Master Limited shooter in my squad and they both shot body, the limited guy had 2 ns hits the gm shot it clean.

[GuildSF4]

The reality is this depends on how good you shoot. Not how fast, if you have trouble shooting within 4" of you aiming point then higher is better, less chance of double penalties. If you can shoot within 2" the lower A zone is better. You must be able to call your shots on this. On arrays like this and virgina count stages hits are the most important i.e. make every shot count, if that takes 2 to 3 seconds longer than the faster shooters so what, you would be surprized and probably beat most of them on points and HF.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

Since I shoot Revolver and always go for A's, take the lower A zone. Have confidence in your shot placement.

[grapemeister]

I love those type of target arrays. It's my chance to get a head of the competition a little. A good many shooters at my level don't have the discipline and patience to slow down and get the hits. I'm a slow shooter anyhow, so it's nothing out of the ordinary for me! Lower A zone is the way to go.

But, but....you're a sandbagger too! How can you reconcile the two disciplines?

Yeah, I wish that was my excuse...only in my imagination. But, it sounds good and kind of leaves folks guessing, so will ride the sandbagger thing out a while longer. Please throw that out again after I bomb a stage...it'll make me feel better!

It's true as other have pointed out that ideally one would not slow down on the no shoot targets and they should be shot the same as an open target since we're aiming at the same spot on the target and shooting A's either way, but in reality most of us mere mortals have to slow down, at least a little. One day I won't be a mere mortal..it is the journey I love about this sport.

[kimberacp]

Slowing down is not the answer. You must have the appropriate visual patience to see what you need to to get 2 As depending on the difficulty of the target. This is not the same thing as slowing down ... when you index the target and you have the appropriate sight picture you pull the trigger, fast or slow does not enter into it ...

this is correct! exactly what Nimitz said! there is no fast or slow in shooting. if you think there is, you will most certainly not advance up the ranks.

I also shot the body section at the nationals. there is no difference between the body shot or head shot, if you have the "appropriate visual patience to see what you need to get 2 As". Just as Nimitz stated.

[bikerburgess]

one thing about this type of target presentation is the visual game the non scoring border plays. I believe the perf of the A zone and the perf of the no shoot are lined up so the entire A zone is available but the non scoring border on the no shoot makes it seem smaller. that said shoot the center of the a zone as fast as you can hit it.

Mike

[MarkCO]

I agree with those who say shoot the center of the lower A-Zones.

If that is what the "best" guys do, why not just work/practice on the skill that results in the best score. Once you get rid of the "I can't make that shot" syndrome and work on them, they become easier. I spent years trying to do "well" at local matches until I realized the perfect practice, pushing, trying, etc. at a local match would help more than being conservative. It is all a process, but I want the most efficient process I can get now.

[lugnut]

Shot that array at the Nationals and aimed at the B/C scoring line on the neck or lower portion of the B zone just so I dont pull one into the NS. If an array like that is close I'll go for the body shots. Have an A card in Limited.

That's probably what I'd do as well. It depends on the distances, how I got to that position and how I'm feeling on that day. I always want A hits but a Mike/NS is nasty. The neck gives you more room to hit brown. Aiming for the head could offer a miss, high or L/R. Aiming for the Body A could get a Mike/NS...

[lugnut]

I agree with those who say shoot the center of the lower A-Zones.

If that is what the "best" guys do, why not just work/practice on the skill that results in the best score. Once you get rid of the "I can't make that shot" syndrome and work on them, they become easier. I spent years trying to do "well" at local matches until I realized the perfect practice, pushing, trying, etc. at a local match would help more than being conservative. It is all a process, but I want the most efficient process I can get now.

Risk vs reward is something all shooters need to figure out. My risk vs JJ or EricG are totally different... that's why I shoot to MY ability at matches. Practice this stuff in practice....

[MarkCO]

I agree with those who say shoot the center of the lower A-Zones.

If that is what the "best" guys do, why not just work/practice on the skill that results in the best score. Once you get rid of the "I can't make that shot" syndrome and work on them, they become easier. I spent years trying to do "well" at local matches until I realized the perfect practice, pushing, trying, etc. at a local match would help more than being conservative. It is all a process, but I want the most efficient process I can get now.

Risk vs reward is something all shooters need to figure out. My risk vs JJ or EricG are totally different... that's why I shoot to MY ability at matches. Practice this stuff in practice....

I don't have time to "practice" so that is what local matches are to me, but I did say to practice those shots, not just wing it at Nationals. Trust me, those types of arrays are not what depress match scores for the mortals. My risk vs. reward at Nationals (granted my first) was all about stage plan, not executing the shots. It was never more evident, but splits don't win matches, stage plans, transitions, explosive movement and precise footwork are what win matches. There was not a shot EricG made at Production Nationals that any B class shooter could not make. Granted, the time might increase a tad, but not much. Some of the SuperSquad below the top 4 or 5 shot faster splits, but they were less efficient and or precise in their movement and transitions.

There was one stage where Ben and Eric set up on 4 targets and shot all with hip rotation. The rest set up on 2 and shuffled their feet on the other 2. Those transitions took twice what Eric and Ben had. 1/4 second 4 times in a stage...that is a lot for the top tier.

If you shoot conservatively at local matches, it will take more time to push the skillset forward.

[grapemeister]

Slowing down is not the answer. You must have the appropriate visual patience to see what you need to to get 2 As depending on the difficulty of the target. This is not the same thing as slowing down ... when you index the target and you have the appropriate sight picture you pull the trigger, fast or slow does not enter into it ...

this is correct! exactly what Nimitz said! there is no fast or slow in shooting. if you think there is, you will most certainly not advance up the ranks.

I also shot the body section at the nationals. there is no difference between the body shot or head shot, if you have the "appropriate visual patience to see what you need to get 2 As". Just as Nimitz stated.

I think both of you are entirely correct when comes to the actual shooting. Thinking in terms of fast or slow just before or while shooting can be detrimanetal to one's shooting. It was defintely a big breakthrough for me when I realized that. My best shooting comes when time doesn't exist at all.

In my previous post I was speaking in terms of observation, results and comparison after the fact.

Edited October 22, 2013 by grapemeister

[lugnut]

I agree with those who say shoot the center of the lower A-Zones.

If that is what the "best" guys do, why not just work/practice on the skill that results in the best score. Once you get rid of the "I can't make that shot" syndrome and work on them, they become easier. I spent years trying to do "well" at local matches until I realized the perfect practice, pushing, trying, etc. at a local match would help more than being conservative. It is all a process, but I want the most efficient process I can get now.

Risk vs reward is something all shooters need to figure out. My risk vs JJ or EricG are totally different... that's why I shoot to MY ability at matches. Practice this stuff in practice....

I don't have time to "practice" so that is what local matches are to me, but I did say to practice those shots, not just wing it at Nationals. Trust me, those types of arrays are not what depress match scores for the mortals. My risk vs. reward at Nationals (granted my first) was all about stage plan, not executing the shots. It was never more evident, but splits don't win matches, stage plans, transitions, explosive movement and precise footwork are what win matches. There was not a shot EricG made at Production Nationals that any B class shooter could not make. Granted, the time might increase a tad, but not much. Some of the SuperSquad below the top 4 or 5 shot faster splits, but they were less efficient and or precise in their movement and transitions.

There was one stage where Ben and Eric set up on 4 targets and shot all with hip rotation. The rest set up on 2 and shuffled their feet on the other 2. Those transitions took twice what Eric and Ben had. 1/4 second 4 times in a stage...that is a lot for the top tier.

If you shoot conservatively at local matches, it will take more time to push the skillset forward.

Lots of good points... however it's not all just the movements and footwork. It's all the above. If you pop one NS in an array like that it kills you... and that can happen when you are trying to find that right balance between points and time. IMO at our level I think it's mostly about the shooting part... even at this Nats. A shooting buddy of mine beat me by over 30 positions.... our times/movement were near identical. I didn't call some bad shots and got a few more Mikes.

[motosapiens]

IMO at our level I think it's mostly about the shooting part... even at this Nats. A shooting buddy of mine beat me by over 30 positions.... our times/movement were near identical. I didn't call some bad shots and got a few more Mikes.

Probably depends on the individuals involved. You have to have the shooting part to even be in the mix. 30 positions is a LOT Of mikes. I shot about the same points as the winner at L10 nationals, I just did it slower, and finished 50 spots further back, lol.

In my experience, with shooting and with racing bicycles and motorcycles, some people start with more speed and gradually improve their control. Some people start with more control and gradually improve their speed. Seems like both can get you to the same place (although lack of control on a motorcycle is more painful than lack of speed).

Edited October 23, 2013 by motosapiens

[lugnut]

IMO at our level I think it's mostly about the shooting part... even at this Nats. A shooting buddy of mine beat me by over 30 positions.... our times/movement were near identical. I didn't call some bad shots and got a few more Mikes.

Probably depends on the individuals involved. You have to have the shooting part to even be in the mix. 30 positions is a LOT Of mikes. I shot about the same points as the winner at L10 nationals, I just did it slower, and finished 50 spots further back, lol.

In my experience, with shooting and with racing bicycles and motorcycles, some people start with more speed and gradually improve their control. Some people start with more control and gradually improve their speed. Seems like both can get you to the same place (although lack of control on a motorcycle is more painful than lack of speed).

In this particular case I had 8 PEs he had 3 PEs. A few more points too. My only point is that shooting at speed is the issue here. On those targets I'd go for the spot with as much brown as I could find. It reduces the chances of a Mike and/or Mike/NS. Of course it depends on your skill levels, distances, etc.

[motosapiens]

IMO at our level I think it's mostly about the shooting part... even at this Nats. A shooting buddy of mine beat me by over 30 positions.... our times/movement were near identical. I didn't call some bad shots and got a few more Mikes.

Probably depends on the individuals involved. You have to have the shooting part to even be in the mix. 30 positions is a LOT Of mikes. I shot about the same points as the winner at L10 nationals, I just did it slower, and finished 50 spots further back, lol.

In my experience, with shooting and with racing bicycles and motorcycles, some people start with more speed and gradually improve their control. Some people start with more control and gradually improve their speed. Seems like both can get you to the same place (although lack of control on a motorcycle is more painful than lack of speed).

In this particular case I had 8 PEs he had 3 PEs. A few more points too. My only point is that shooting at speed is the issue here. On those targets I'd go for the spot with as much brown as I could find. It reduces the chances of a Mike and/or Mike/NS. Of course it depends on your skill levels, distances, etc.

My strategy is normally to go for the biggest A-zone, and get a good enough sight picture that I know I'll hit it, but it can be situational.

There were varying strategies in my squad at L10 nats. I generally went for lower-a-zone, but the shooter in front of me on the shoothouse stage hit 2-no-shoots, saw them, and shot make-up shots that also hit no-shoots. That freaked me out a bit, so I aimed at heads on that one stage. Good thing too, because my rear sight broke and came out of alignment, so one of my headshots was a mike instead of a mike/no-shoot.

Strategy may also be different when shooting major vs minor. In production you really can't afford bravos, so you almost have to shoot the lower a-zone to get the points. if it takes you an extra 1 or 2 tenths per shot, that's ok.

[polizei1]

Everyone will be different. For me, I tend to go for the head because for whatever reason, my red FO ALWAYS seems to get drawn to the white targets...and I tend to hit them! I think it's the mental stress that's added with the NS. For me, it's more calming and easier to hit the head. It's amazing how well I can do on one stage...and then completely tank a stage full of NS'. LOL I hate them with a passion! Even if there's only one NS way by it's self, I'll still end up shooting it somehow, I swear.

Edited October 24, 2013 by polizei1

[GuildSF4]

Everyone will be different. For me, I tend to go for the head because for whatever reason, my red FO ALWAYS seems to get drawn to the white targets...and I tend to hit them! I think it's the mental stress that's added with the NS. For me, it's more calming and easier to hit the head. It's amazing how well I can do on one stage...and then completely tank a stage full of NS'. LOL I hate them with a passion! Even if there's only one NS way by it's self, I'll still end up shooting it somehow, I swear.

Do you tell yourself not to shoot NS's? If so your subconscious hears "shoot the NS's". What works for me is telling myself I have this much of a target on the shoot targets.

[polizei1]

Do you tell yourself not to shoot NS's? If so your subconscious hears "shoot the NS's". What works for me is telling myself I have this much of a target on the shoot targets.

I'll certainly try that and see if it helps!

[RaylanGivens]

Everyone will be different. For me, I tend to go for the head because for whatever reason, my red FO ALWAYS seems to get drawn to the white targets...and I tend to hit them! I think it's the mental stress that's added with the NS. For me, it's more calming and easier to hit the head. It's amazing how well I can do on one stage...and then completely tank a stage full of NS'. LOL I hate them with a passion! Even if there's only one NS way by it's self, I'll still end up shooting it somehow, I swear.

Do you tell yourself not to shoot NS's? If so your subconscious hears "shoot the NS's". What works for me is telling myself I have this much of a target on the shoot targets.

Sounds like something Lanny Bassham would recommend... His book, "With Winning in Mind" is a good read for dealing with the subconscious... but I suspect you might have already read it...

[pjb45]

I talked to a bunch of GMs about this type of target arrays. They pretty much all said, "what no shoots"?

They don't notice the no shoots, their focus in on the spot they want to hit.

I had some remarkable improvement by setting up my dry fire targets with no shoots. There were no open targets. After a month or two of this dry fire, I stopped noticing the no shoots and just the A zone.

I also used these targets to re-enforce the 'Eyes then Gun" movement.

[Grump]

Quite the interesting array for sure. I diabolical match designer would put that exact same one at differing distances in three consecutive matches...40 yards would prove most interesting, no? (personally, I shoot a lot at 50...)

This reminded me of a question here a year or so ago about WHY even have the B zone on the Metric target. For another day, I guess. As I understand stage design, the only valid way to *mandate* a head shot is to have only that part of the target exposed?

Anyway, I call this an excellent stage design in keeping with the origins of IPSC. I followed all this closely as reported in the American Handgunner magazine from its first issues in 1976...

So how can the Euros call themselves "practical" when their exclusive use of the Amoeba target removes all the choices and decision-making for this target array??? At least here we can still embrace the types of problems solvable with a handgun with a simulated "head" where most people's necks are.

[Southpaw]

I shot a classifier match last weekend that had a stage with one of these targets (03-08). At first I thought I'd go for the head, but at the last minute changed my mind and shot the body. It worked out well for me...this time at least... . The transition's also easier since you're shooting the body for the other targets.

[kirbinster]

I shot a classifier match last weekend that had a stage with one of these targets (03-08). At first I thought I'd go for the head, but at the last minute changed my mind and shot the body. It worked out well for me...this time at least... . The transition's also easier since you're shooting the body for the other targets.

I shot the same stage with Russell on my squad, I shot heads and that worked out well for me. I'm not nearly as accurate as he is and figured if I was off I would rather just have a miss than a miss plus a NS.

[Sarge]

Headshots or shoot between the no shoots?

Pick one and practice.