Ejecting round from gun

[RammerJammer]

I've seen hundreds of people leave a football stadium after drinking beer during a 4 hour football game. But never seen them wreck their cars!

There is a risk of detonation. Live primer on an ejector! it has happened and people have been hurt. It's a risk to the shooter and the SO. You turn the gun to the left, and then you are expecting the extractor tension to hold a live round? So the weight of a loaded round can come off the extractor. Simply put,, it ain't worth it, Don't try to tell me that sometimes those rounds do not fly out in front of you. Which is also in front of the gun.I have seen people sweep themselves.

I believe there was such a detonation at the FL Open this year. I'll bet that shooter stopped the practice of doing it.

If you pull the trigger and the round does not fire do you slowly pull the slide to the rear letting the round fall to the ground? I hope so.

[dirty whiteboy]

The other option is to let the round hit the ground. There is a risk of detonation doing that also.

Rather have a detonation at my feet than my face.

[RammerJammer]

So let me sum this up. With a loaded gun it is safe to use your weak hand to: carry object, pull ropes, push open ports, open doors, pull/push levers, drag a dummy, violently grab a magazine from belt and slam it into the bottom of a loaded gun but, you should be DQ'd if you catch a round being ejected from your gun that is pointed down range during ULSC in the most controlled portion of a stage.

Also, in a magic of physics it is perfectly safe to violently jerk back the slid while observing the chamber during a malfunction but to pull the slide to the rear hard enough to make the round catchable (which is not all the hard on most guns) will freaking kill you and the RO.

Will someone please explain the logic of that instead of just saying its a fancy showoff thing that is going to kill us all? I think most people want to keep control of their round because like me once it hits the ground its gone. I dont shoot anything I find on the ground.

[cnote]

I think it is a learned skill to do safely each and every time. The it looks " cool" factor takes over and people that have a hard time just navigating a simple stage safely try it. Now you have to explain to them they just swept themselves and are going home with a DQ.

I wouldn't DQ anyone until they broke a rule where a DQ is appropriate for the written rule

[motosapiens]

I've seen hundreds of people leave a football stadium after drinking beer during a 4 hour football game. But never seen them wreck their cars!

There is a risk of detonation. Live primer on an ejector! it has happened and people have been hurt. It's a risk to the shooter and the SO. You turn the gun to the left, and then you are expecting the extractor tension to hold a live round? So the weight of a loaded round can come off the extractor. Simply put,, it ain't worth it, Don't try to tell me that sometimes those rounds do not fly out in front of you. Which is also in front of the gun.I have seen people sweep themselves.

I believe there was such a detonation at the FL Open this year. I'll bet that shooter stopped the practice of doing it.

From everything I've read, the risk of detonation is lower if you flip and catch than if you eject slowly (which makes total sense from a physics standpoint). You're going to have to *prove* (not speculate) that there is a greater risk of detonation for me to care about this issue.

[juan]

So let me sum this up. With a loaded gun it is safe to use your weak hand to: carry object, pull ropes, push open ports, open doors, pull/push levers, drag a dummy, violently grab a magazine from belt and slam it into the bottom of a loaded gun but, you should be DQ'd if you catch a round being ejected from your gun that is pointed down range during ULSC in the most controlled portion of a stage.

Also, in a magic of physics it is perfectly safe to violently jerk back the slid while observing the chamber during a malfunction but to pull the slide to the rear hard enough to make the round catchable (which is not all the hard on most guns) will freaking kill you and the RO.

Will someone please explain the logic of that instead of just saying its a fancy showoff thing that is going to kill us all? I think most people want to keep control of their round because like me once it hits the ground its gone. I dont shoot anything I find on the ground.

let me try to explain

some people who dont like doing something want to force everybody else from doing it.

take my dad for instance he can see no reason to own mags that hold more than 10 rnds , so its allright to limit everybody to 10 rnds. same mentallity. but its o.k in the name of safty.

[latech15]

Please refer to any of the many other threads where this has been discussed at length. There are always those who think it is showing off and who don't like it, and there will always be those who can do it safely and who continue to do it. Im goingt o continue to do it because it is safer than any other way to unload a gun.

[ac4wordplay]

I think it is a learned skill to do safely each and every time. The it looks " cool" factor takes over and people that have a hard time just navigating a simple stage safely try it. Now you have to explain to them they just swept themselves and are going home with a DQ.

I wouldn't DQ anyone until they broke a rule where a DQ is appropriate for the written rule

This (above) is often true, but not always. They aren't always who you'd expect - some skilled/experienced competitors have a crappy/scary flip-catch unload, some entry-level competitors have an excellent/safe flip-catch unload.

Some people do it well. No issue.

Others frequently come incredibly close to (or commit) a safety violation. DQ when earned.

I'm only aware of one detonation that occurred when a loose round fell to the ground (I expect there are more), but I'm aware of several that occurred in the gun with the slide open. The one that occurred on the ground didn't result in any injury. The ones that occurred in the gun resulted in injuries that included hand, face, and eye area. The risk of either seems quite low, but if I had to be exposed to a detonation and could choose between the two, I'd choose the detonation that occurred on the ground (much farther from my face and hands).

[dirty whiteboy]

I've seen hundreds of people leave a football stadium after drinking beer during a 4 hour football game. But never seen them wreck their cars!

There is a risk of detonation. Live primer on an ejector! it has happened and people have been hurt. It's a risk to the shooter and the SO. You turn the gun to the left, and then you are expecting the extractor tension to hold a live round? So the weight of a loaded round can come off the extractor. Simply put,, it ain't worth it, Don't try to tell me that sometimes those rounds do not fly out in front of you. Which is also in front of the gun.I have seen people sweep themselves.

I believe there was such a detonation at the FL Open this year. I'll bet that shooter stopped the practice of doing it.

From everything I've read, the risk of detonation is lower if you flip and catch than if you eject slowly (which makes total sense from a physics standpoint). You're going to have to *prove* (not speculate) that there is a greater risk of detonation for me to care about this issue.

So please show me a list of shooting schools that actually teaches this. Is Gunsite on that list? Is this taught to LEO's at the academy? Does our military teach this "safe" way to unload. The safest by what you have read?(where are you reading) Pleeeeze!

[dirty whiteboy]

• Gender:Male
• Location:Jacksonville, FL

Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:02 PM

The detonation was caused by the ejector. The injury was to the shooters lip and tounge. The stitches were in his tounge.

Rudy Project Shooting Squad

USPSA CRO w/3Gun Endorsement

ICORE RO

IDPA Safety Officer

If you do a search in match announcements for Area 6, you will find this info. For some reason I could not get the link to paste.

[Jaxshooter]

I personally have seen more rounds detonate when pulling the slide back firmly with the ejection port pointed to the side. I have never seen a round detonate when the shooter had the ejection port pointed up to flip the round up and catch it. The shooter at Area 6 is a friend of mine who I have been shooting with since 93. He is without question one of the safest shooters in the game. He does not flip rounds up and catch them.

While this is my experience there will be numerous people that have seen it the other way around. I shoot open and admit that I do flip the round up and catch it. I have never experienced a detonation.

[GOF]

I was taught years ago to roll the pistol to the right, bring the slide back and catch the round with your hand cupped over the ejection port. Three times I've seen shooters injured when the slide was jerked back to quickly and the round hit the ejector causing it to go off all three had small pieces of brass in their hand and twice the pistol needed repair. So far haven't seen a discharge by jacking the slide and catching the round though I still like to see the slide retracted again to double check that the chamber is empty.

If the primer can hit the ejector and detonate the round on ejection because the shooter pulled the slide back too quickly while cupping their hand over the ejection port... then could not a vigorous racking of the slide for the 'flip & catch' result in the same detonation?

And, if I am the SO standing directly next to that ejection port when it happens (and it has happened to other SOs) am I not going to catch brass frags from the detonating cartridge when the open ejection port funnels the blast right up into my face? What gives a shooter the right to put me in that potentially hazardous position just so they can look cool on YouTube?

Obviously, I am not a fan of the uber-cool high-speed low-drag ULSC. If you want to put yourself at risk... fine. But, you have no right to put the SO/RO at risk, just so you can 'impress your fans'.

[GOF]

.

From everything I've read, the risk of detonation is lower if you flip and catch than if you eject slowly (which makes total sense from a physics standpoint). You're going to have to *prove* (not speculate) that there is a greater risk of detonation for me to care about this issue.

That makes NO sense from a physics standpoint. It takes a sharp blow to set off a primer. If that wasn't the case, we'd be setting off primers everytime we loaded a magazine, or handled ammo.

A slow and steady ejection does not create the 'sharp blow' needed to set off a primer. A hard/fast racking of the slide... needed to get the round into the air where it can be niftily caught...DOES create that force.... especially if that primer hits an extended ejector.

IMHO, it's a foolish practice that has a documented potential for injury. I could care less about injury to the shooter who does it, but am concerned about injury to the SO/RO who is required to peer into the chamber and monitor the ULSC.

[RammerJammer]

.

From everything I've read, the risk of detonation is lower if you flip and catch than if you eject slowly (which makes total sense from a physics standpoint). You're going to have to *prove* (not speculate) that there is a greater risk of detonation for me to care about this issue.

That makes NO sense from a physics standpoint. It takes a sharp blow to set off a primer. If that wasn't the case, we'd be setting off primers everytime we loaded a magazine, or handled ammo.

A slow and steady ejection does not create the 'sharp blow' needed to set off a primer. A hard/fast racking of the slide... needed to get the round into the air where it can be niftily caught...DOES create that force.... especially if that primer hits an extended ejector.

IMHO, it's a foolish practice that has a documented potential for injury. I could care less about injury to the shooter who does it, but am concerned about injury to the SO/RO who is required to peer into the chamber and monitor the ULSC.

I hope you also slowly roll the gun and let rounds fall to the ground when clearing a misfire/stoppage. If it is deadly during ULSC it is deadly during immediate action.

Edited August 25, 2013 by RammerJammer

[motosapiens]

I've seen hundreds of people leave a football stadium after drinking beer during a 4 hour football game. But never seen them wreck their cars!

There is a risk of detonation. Live primer on an ejector! it has happened and people have been hurt. It's a risk to the shooter and the SO. You turn the gun to the left, and then you are expecting the extractor tension to hold a live round? So the weight of a loaded round can come off the extractor. Simply put,, it ain't worth it, Don't try to tell me that sometimes those rounds do not fly out in front of you. Which is also in front of the gun.I have seen people sweep themselves.

I believe there was such a detonation at the FL Open this year. I'll bet that shooter stopped the practice of doing it.

From everything I've read, the risk of detonation is lower if you flip and catch than if you eject slowly (which makes total sense from a physics standpoint). You're going to have to *prove* (not speculate) that there is a greater risk of detonation for me to care about this issue.

So please show me a list of shooting schools that actually teaches this. Is Gunsite on that list? Is this taught to LEO's at the academy? Does our military teach this "safe" way to unload. The safest by what you have read?(where are you reading) Pleeeeze!

Wait, what? we can only do what shooting schools teach? Sweet, I guess I can dq people for taking too long on their walkthrough.

lulz.

[motosapiens]

.

From everything I've read, the risk of detonation is lower if you flip and catch than if you eject slowly (which makes total sense from a physics standpoint). You're going to have to *prove* (not speculate) that there is a greater risk of detonation for me to care about this issue.

That makes NO sense from a physics standpoint. It takes a sharp blow to set off a primer. If that wasn't the case, we'd be setting off primers everytime we loaded a magazine, or handled ammo.

A slow and steady ejection does not create the 'sharp blow' needed to set off a primer. A hard/fast racking of the slide... needed to get the round into the air where it can be niftily caught...DOES create that force.... especially if that primer hits an extended ejector.

IMHO, it's a foolish practice that has a documented potential for injury. I could care less about injury to the shooter who does it, but am concerned about injury to the SO/RO who is required to peer into the chamber and monitor the ULSC.

It doesn't bother me if you are wrong, but all the same I'll help correct you, since physics is an important topic. A 'slow' ejection like most people do is still plenty hard enough to set off a primer if the primer contacts the ejector in the right spot. A brisk and forceful ejection will generally keep the round stable under the extractor so it doesn't slip or misalign in a way that the ejector can set off the primer.

[Vanniek71]

IMHO, it's a foolish practice that has a documented potential for injury. I could care less about injury to the shooter who does it, but am concerned about injury to the SO/RO who is required to peer into the chamber and monitor the ULSC.

Foolish or not, not caring about injury to your shooter is probably the most negligent statement I have read in this thread. I sincerely hope you said it just to prove your dislike for the round flipping, and truly don't feel that way.

[frag316]

Wow, lots of people worked up over this one.

All I know is I've never seen a ruling from NROI on this one. I seem to recall John Amidon saying he didn't particularly like it, but so long as the competitor did nothing blatantly unsafe (like sweeping themselves), then it's not against the rules and is not a DQable offense. I did it for at least 12 of the 13 stages at Single Stack Nationals this year and a total of zero ROs said anything to me about it.

[latech15]

Guns are designed to eject cases forcefully. Much faster than when it is being racked by hand. When you unload it the way it was designed to operate, the chances of anything other than a safe unload are very slim. If you unload it in a manner in which it is not designed to operate, those chances go up (slowly, sideways, with something in front if the ejection port ie: your hand etc)

What is taught in classes when clearing a malfunction is to forcefully rack, rack, rack to clear the jam. That is exactly the same thing except we are catching the round in the air so as to eliminate the secondary chance of detonation - when it hits the ground.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, if you don't like it, that's fine. Don't do it. But you cannot argue safety when it comes to this method of ulsc. I think we will all agree that more detonations have occurred when a shooter cups his hand over the ejection port and racks the slide than when flipping. I have never seen one RO stop someone nor one thread posted about the dangers of ulsc with that method.

If you are going to sweep yourself with the gun while trying to flip, then be prepared for the consequences.

I'm not sure what method of ulsc those that are against flipping are FOR, but I assume that it is just to rack the slide and let the round fall. We are doing just that, except we catch the round, eliminating the chance that it detonates when it hits a prop or stake on the ground.

Get over it already.

[frag316]

Actually, a competitor cupping their hand over the ejection port bothers me a bit more, simply because it's easy for the slide to slip in their (probably) sweaty hands (there's usually little in the way of cocking serrations where people habitually grab the slide) and catch flesh in it. Not a true safety concern, but a competitor welfare concern.

[Steve Koski]

I think there ought to be a camera in every porta potty at the range, to ensure nobody is fondling their pistols in the commode. This is a much bigger safety concern.

[GOF]

IMHO, it's a foolish practice that has a documented potential for injury. I could care less about injury to the shooter who does it, but am concerned about injury to the SO/RO who is required to peer into the chamber and monitor the ULSC.

Foolish or not, not caring about injury to your shooter is probably the most negligent statement I have read in this thread. I sincerely hope you said it just to prove your dislike for the round flipping, and truly don't feel that way.

If a person choses to engage in a foolish... show off... potentially dangerous action... then NO, I really don't care if they suffer an injury. Let Darwin rule there.

But, the SO/RO is required to be right there at the ULSC and is placed in a potentially hazardous position because some 'hotshot' wants to show how 'cool' he is on YouTube.

That is my objection to the 'flip & catch". YMMV .... insert a pleasent Smiley here.

[motosapiens]

IMHO, it's a foolish practice that has a documented potential for injury. I could care less about injury to the shooter who does it, but am concerned about injury to the SO/RO who is required to peer into the chamber and monitor the ULSC.

Foolish or not, not caring about injury to your shooter is probably the most negligent statement I have read in this thread. I sincerely hope you said it just to prove your dislike for the round flipping, and truly don't feel that way.

If a person choses to engage in a foolish... show off... potentially dangerous action... then NO, I really don't care if they suffer an injury. Let Darwin rule there.

But, the SO/RO is required to be right there at the ULSC and is placed in a potentially hazardous position because some 'hotshot' wants to show how 'cool' he is on YouTube.

That is my objection to the 'flip & catch". YMMV .... insert a pleasent Smiley here.

Again, I don't know of anyone who does it to be 'cool', but I'd rather address your other superstition; I fail to see the potentially hazardous situation you are describing? are you actually sticking your face in there to try and see the chamber during the flip and catch? If so, you are doing it wrong. Let the shooter flip and catch (or unload in any other normal safe manner) with your face elsewhere, then let him show you the empty chamber.

[Paul-the new guy]

IMHO, it's a foolish practice that has a documented potential for injury. I could care less about injury to the shooter who does it, but am concerned about injury to the SO/RO who is required to peer into the chamber and monitor the ULSC.

Foolish or not, not caring about injury to your shooter is probably the most negligent statement I have read in this thread. I sincerely hope you said it just to prove your dislike for the round flipping, and truly don't feel that way.

If a person choses to engage in a foolish... show off... potentially dangerous action... then NO, I really don't care if they suffer an injury. Let Darwin rule there.

But, the SO/RO is required to be right there at the ULSC and is placed in a potentially hazardous position because some 'hotshot' wants to show how 'cool' he is on YouTube.

That is my objection to the 'flip & catch". YMMV .... insert a pleasent Smiley here.

Again, I don't know of anyone who does it to be 'cool', but I'd rather address your other superstition; I fail to see the potentially hazardous situation you are describing? are you actually sticking your face in there to try and see the chamber during the flip and catch? If so, you are doing it wrong. Let the shooter flip and catch (or unload in any other normal safe manner) with your face elsewhere, then let him show you the empty chamber.

Me, I do it to be cool... And I am pretty sure GOF is the guy who gave me shit about it... insert a jackassy smirk here...

[GOF]

IMHO, it's a foolish practice that has a documented potential for injury. I could care less about injury to the shooter who does it, but am concerned about injury to the SO/RO who is required to peer into the chamber and monitor the ULSC.

Foolish or not, not caring about injury to your shooter is probably the most negligent statement I have read in this thread. I sincerely hope you said it just to prove your dislike for the round flipping, and truly don't feel that way.

If a person choses to engage in a foolish... show off... potentially dangerous action... then NO, I really don't care if they suffer an injury. Let Darwin rule there.

But, the SO/RO is required to be right there at the ULSC and is placed in a potentially hazardous position because some 'hotshot' wants to show how 'cool' he is on YouTube.

That is my objection to the 'flip & catch". YMMV .... insert a pleasent Smiley here.

Again, I don't know of anyone who does it to be 'cool', but I'd rather address your other superstition; I fail to see the potentially hazardous situation you are describing? are you actually sticking your face in there to try and see the chamber during the flip and catch? If so, you are doing it wrong. Let the shooter flip and catch (or unload in any other normal safe manner) with your face elsewhere, then let him show you the empty chamber.

Get real! The only reason someone does the "catch & flip" is TO LOOK COOL. Why else would anyone go through those gymnastics just to clear a round from the chamber of a semi-auto pistol?

The 'catch & flip' has resulted in cartridge detonation. Superstition? Sorry... just fact! As Yogi Berra once said "You can look it up". I actually saw one, but wasn't the SO running the shooter. That SO had minor bleeding from fragments, and fortunately, no major fragments penetrated the face or eyes. He was lucky.

If the SO/RO is standing in the proper position... within three feet on the shooter's right side (for a right handed shooter) during the ULSC, any cartridge detionation CAN (and probably will) affect that SO/RO. With the ejection port facing upwards, which is necessary to do the "cool" catch & flip, any detonation will be funneled upwards and outwards. It's happened.

It's called a 'directional blast'... did some of that in the military. It's also a 'real thing'... but maybe not in your world.

If the shooter turns the pistol to the right and down and just puts the round on the ground, any detonation is contained in the ejection port and won't do more than spread minot shrapnel to the lower legs and feet.

Why not do that and minimize the chance of injury? Ohh wait... I know!... It's because it doesn't "LOOK COOL".

As for 'showing me an empty chamber... when I run into a 'catch & flipper' you can bet they will show me an empty chamber.... maybe a dozen times before I'm satisfied that it is actually empty. Most 'catch & flippers' get the message from this IDPA CSO after the first stage.