Been Using Clays ...What's Better

[ShepJim]

Hi all --

I've been "back" into shooting only a year or so and am even newer to hand loading so qualify as a "newbie" under whatever definition you'd choose. I shot centerfire in the Maine Pistol Postals all last winter using 200 grain LSWC's I bought from Wilson Combat under their "house brand". They are labelled as being 875 fps from a 5" barrel — no clue as to what powder they use.

I'm shooting USPSA Single Stack with a fullsize 5" barrelled Sig 1911 and must make Major. I've started loading my own cartridges using 200 grain lead SWC's cast by a Maine company -- CB Bullets. They do a nice job. I've weighed a bunch of the bullets and they're pretty consistent at an average weight running abou 199 grains.

The first, and only, powder I've used is Clays. A friend with a chronograph, and using the same bullets and Clays, advised that we needed to increase the powder load from 4.1 to 4.3 to be sure that we make major.

At 4.3 grains we're at the max load for Clays. So, there's no where to go from here. Another negative with Clays is that volume-wise the 4.3 grains of powder is not very much sitting in the bottom of the case. I really have to get me eye right above the case on the shellplate to see the powder in there. I heven;t tried it, but I bet I coiuld drop a triple charge of Clays (12.9 grains) into a .45 case before there would any overflow alerting me to a problem.

So! I'm hoping to try some new powders that would:

• would push a 200 grain bullet at at least 850 fps
• using a charge in the middle of their suggested weight range (ie. at least .5 grains less than its max)
• have more volume in the .45 case (a less dense powder than Clays)
• not be any dirtier than Clays

Am I asking for too much? What are you guys using?

Thanks, Jim

Bristol, Maine

[Bill H]

I use VV N310 with the 200 LSWCs. I think that may be what Wilson uses.From what I remember it was Bill Wilson's favorite load. It is very accurate. I think I use 4.6 gr but I can't check at the moment. It is not a lot of powder in a case either.

[twodownzero]

Clays and 230s are like apple pie and baseball. Don't mess with perfection.

[ShepJim]

I use VV N310 with the 200 LSWCs. I think that may be what Wilson uses.From what I remember it was Bill Wilson's favorite load. It is very accurate. I think I use 4.6 gr but I can't check at the moment. It is not a lot of powder in a case either.

Hey Bill -- I'm betting you're correct about your Bill Wilsom memory. I found this post on the 1911 Forum made by user Bald1

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=241301

One of the loads Wilson Combat uses to test fire their pistols is: 
200 H&G #68 LSWC 4.5gr N310 1.250 850fps 0.460 taper crimp / Win LP
I verified this with the Wilson rep on another forum a few months back.
--- Bald1

It's nice to know what I have (most likely) been shooting to date. And, I'd like to mention that Wilson Combat, while they did not have ammo in inventory ready-to-ship throughout all the craziness, did manage to ship orders without MONTHs AND MONTHS of delay and never changed their pricing. I have a warm place in my heart for their products!

Jim

[Shocker]

Clays maxes out at 4.2 only when you're loading very short, like 1.200 if I remember correctly.

My SWC are at 1.240" and I personally would have no qualms about 4.3gr or even a bit more.

Unless you really just want something other than Clays...

[ShepJim]

Clays and 230s are like apple pie and baseball. Don't mess with perfection.

Hey TDZ! I'll take that under advisment! My clubs indoor range requires us to shoot plain lead bullets - no jackets. One of these days I plan to try a "flat pointed" 230 bullet to see what type of holes they punch in paper. I shot LRNs when I first bought the 1911 and went to the range. The RN's do not make a hole in a paper target — more like a 1.5" tear. That made scoring of my targets a problem.

I stumbled onto Wilson's 200 LSWC's and really liked them. I was also very happy when I found that they would also work nicley for USPSA.

Jim

[ShepJim]

Clays maxes out at 4.2 only when you're loading very short, like 1.200 if I remember correctly.

My SWC are at 1.240" and I personally would have no qualms about 4.3gr or even a bit more. ...<snip>...

Hi Shocker --

We're currently at 4.3 grains Clays and my OAL is set long at 1.262. Maybe shortening it up a bit and reduciing the load back down to 4.1 grains would provide the pressure needed to retain Major PF.

Like I said I'd prefer not to be at the max ...with no where to go. Though, you're not the first person to suggest that exploring a little over the "booK"s 4.3 could be done without much risk.

Of course, I'd still like a powder that filled a bit more volume of the case.

BTW, can anyone comment about how short a .45 ACP can be before one might begin to experience loading and chambering troubles.

Jim

[Steve RA]

Edited August 1, 2013 by Steve RA

[Steve RA]

Velocities in above chart taken with 5" Taurus PT-1911

[motosapiens]

I personally don't really stress about the maxes with a 45. If you're using a ww1 era pistol and brasss, then sure, stress about it, but modern mettalurgy has improved quite a bit. I slightly exceed the book max with my 230grain loads, and there are absolutely no signs of pressure. Just looking at the cases compared to the duty ammo my co-workers carry it is obvious that there is a LOT less pressure in my slightly-over-max-clays loads.

Regarding powder volume, rather than rely on overflow to alert me to a problem, I prefer to develop a routine that makes it near impossible to pull the handle twice without rotating the shellplate. Any time I stop for any reason, i double-triple check the powder volume before I seat the bullet.

[poolguy]

Been running 4.4 clays behind a 200 LSWC out of a 5" for quite a while. No over pressure signs. Gets 170pf out of one gun and 173 out of another. Can't recal my OAL, but it is on the longer end. And I can definitely see a double charge in the case.

[RH45]

I ran with Clays for years in .45, and was usually over what was listed as max to make major, at freezing temperatures, but, the same load would be like 190pf when it got hot so I switched to VV310.

[kneelingatlas]

Maybe WST or 700X?

[twodownzero]

Clays and 230s are like apple pie and baseball. Don't mess with perfection.

Hey TDZ! I'll take that under advisment! My clubs indoor range requires us to shoot plain lead bullets - no jackets. One of these days I plan to try a "flat pointed" 230 bullet to see what type of holes they punch in paper. I shot LRNs when I first bought the 1911 and went to the range. The RN's do not make a hole in a paper target — more like a 1.5" tear. That made scoring of my targets a problem.

I stumbled onto Wilson's 200 LSWC's and really liked them. I was also very happy when I found that they would also work nicley for USPSA.

Jim

200s are fine too, IMO. I shot a few thousand 200s and went back to the 230s, but it's not really a big deal either way.

Clays is where it's at for .45 though.

And those talking about "signs of pressure" in .45 are misguided. You'll never see them; even a book loaded +P load probably will not flatten primers. The pressure limit of .45 ACP is way lower than the pressures our primers are made for, since they are shared with so many other calibers that are not as low pressure as the .45.

I would be very careful about ever exceeding book max in .45, especially with a faster powder.

My gun makes major with 3.6 grains of Clays and a 230 grain moly bullet, though, so although I have worked the loads up to max just to chrono, I don't load them that hot (and I still seem to always make the high 170s or low 180s at matches anyway).

Edited August 2, 2013 by twodownzero

[motosapiens]

Clays and 230s are like apple pie and baseball. Don't mess with perfection.

Hey TDZ! I'll take that under advisment! My clubs indoor range requires us to shoot plain lead bullets - no jackets. One of these days I plan to try a "flat pointed" 230 bullet to see what type of holes they punch in paper. I shot LRNs when I first bought the 1911 and went to the range. The RN's do not make a hole in a paper target — more like a 1.5" tear. That made scoring of my targets a problem.

I stumbled onto Wilson's 200 LSWC's and really liked them. I was also very happy when I found that they would also work nicley for USPSA.

Jim

And those talking about "signs of pressure" in .45 are misguided. You'll never see them; even a book loaded +P load probably will not flatten primers. The pressure limit of .45 ACP is way lower than the pressures our primers are made for, since they are shared with so many other calibers that are not as low pressure as the .45.

I would be very careful about ever exceeding book max in .45, especially with a faster powder.

As I mentioned previously, the factory loads my co-workers carry flatten primers. Of course primer flattening and headstamp flattening are not the only signs of pressure that can be observed.

Also I note that 100's of people (including bill wilson) have been exceeding book max loads consistently for years with zero problems.

[ShepJim]

I ran with Clays for years in .45, and was usually over what was listed as max to make major, at freezing temperatures, but, the same load would be like 190pf when it got hot so I switched to VV310.

WoW! Is ambient temperature sensitivity a known quality of Clays? And the same question vice-versa for the W310.

How well do the digital chronographs perform in the colder temperatures? I've had experience with PDAs, phones and cameras in the winter outdoors. The display screens, especially, do not like being too cold.

[wide45]

WST for lead.

[ShepJim]

Velocities in above chart taken with 5" Taurus PT-1911

Steve: Thank you for the chart — and people tell me I'm into the details too much!

I have to ask how those shots were made. I'd assume since you don't mention that you were shooting handheld on a pistol rest.

It's fortuitous (there's a word you son't see much in the Forum! LOL) that you're showing the tightest groups right at 4.3 grains -- Hodgdon's stated max for Clays in the .45 ACP

I note that you recorded weather data for the days you shot. I'd be very interested in your comments about how ambient temerature may Clays' performance.

Jim

[B45C22]

N320 is awesome in 45. I'm at 4.0 iirc with a 230.

[Steve RA]

Yes, the groups were shot using a carpet covered 4X4 for a rest. I'll have to chrono some in the near future as we are currently running in the plus 100F range now.

Here is a group I shot using the same rest.

Same Taurus after I put the Fastfire III on it.

[mgrs]

I've had good luck with Red Dot, and it always seems to be available. It also meters fine. I get an SD of 12-15 loading on a 650.

Promo is the same stuff even cheaper. It might meter differently though. Both are a little dirty at low pressures.

Loads:

230gr LRN @ 1.260 with CCI 0350. 3.2gr Red Dot. 168 PF, SD 12

200gr RNFP @ 1.190 with CCI 0350. 4.4gr Red Dot 173 PF, SD 14

[jcc7x7]

The 200gr H&G 68 was the gold standard for years in uspsa/ipsc shooting behind 5.6-58 of 231/ HP-38 (same powder different bottle, Hodgdon with verify that info),COl 1.250 that load gave 180 power factor back in the old days when PF was higher. So you can go down to get your comfort level of PF.

I shoot 230 with clays BUT still have a load worked up for 200gr SWC load COL 1.250 between 4.1-4.2 makes 170-171 Pf in all of my 1911's load depends on barrel ie.e how tight is the chamber and actual barrel, etc

You might try some 230gr they reach PF easy with Clays and as said above is the new gold standard for uspsa Single Stack, think you might be looking for something that isn't needed BUT half the fun is experimenting to see what works best for you.

Win 231, WST, Clays, (good ole) Bullseye, Titegroup, etc etc will all get you to Power factor with a cushion

good Fortune

jcc7x7

[Shadowrider]

For lead...

1st choice = Clays

2nd choice = WST (very close 2nd)

Personally I'd use whichever one your gun liked the best. If you need a 3rd option it would be N310 or N320, but I have a hard time paying the price when I can get almost twice the powder for the same money. Good luck.

[Bob DuBois]

Haven't found a powder I like better than Clays in a 45, prefer 200 cast SWC. Had good results when shooting Red Dot and a lot of rounds down range with 231 but Clays is at the top of the list in my book.

[ShepJim]

So, I've ordered a couple of new powders. I've done that in a fun way. A bunch of my action pistol buddies are headed down to the Harvard Sportsmens' Club in MA to shoot their monthly Level 1 IPSC match.today. On the way back they'll stop at the Kittery Trading Post. I've given a prioritized shopping list to my buddy Lee:

1. Mfgr: Accurate -- Powder: Solo 1000
2. Mfgr: Accurate -- Powder: No. 2
3. Mgfr: Winchester -- Powder: 231
4. Mgfr: Winchester -- Powder: WST
5. Mgfr: Hodgdon -- Powder: Titegroup

and asked him to get me two 1 lb jars of whichever powders they have in stock. If anyone else in the group wants to buy in maybe we'll get even more than two — I figure I don't really need more than 4 oz of a powder to do some expeimenting.

This "mystery shopping" is fun.

Jim