IDPA "Micro" Class? How to make it more real.

[swhiteh3]

This is respectfully submitted to those of you who shoot IDPA.

I've moved away from IDPA and toward USPSA because of some of the rules in IDPA. I understand the intent of those rules is to "make it more like real life", but some other rules make it nothing like "real life" for me. In a discussion with an IDPA-shooting friend of mine, he asked "what would bring you back to IDPA", and I responded - make it JUST like real life.

When we talked about what that would include, I said I would like a class I could compete in COMPETITIVELY with the gun I carry everyday. I would guess that over 50% of us who carry EVERY DAY do not carry full sized firearms like those allowed in even the lowest IDPDA class, nor do we carry vast amounts of ammunition for an extended firefight.

How about a "micro" or "CCW" class?

I would propose a list of criteria (weight, length, height, thickness) with a weighting formula that allows slightly variance on one attribute, as long as the other attributes are met with some "comfort factor". This formula would not be done at the club level, it would result in a list from IDPA nationals on firearms that are allowed. The cut off would be rather obvious, including weapons such as the M&P Shield, Kahr and Rorbach CCW versions, Ruger LCP, LC9, Springfield sub-compact, etc.

Limit capacity to 6+1, or whatever supports this class appropriately. Calibers would include .380. One (or two) magazines on the belt limit. Firearms may have reasonable modifications, but must meet a heavier trigger weight limit which would be reasonable for a stock-ish CCW firearm. The definition of concealment might also need to be reconsidered, since a simple vest over a full holster is not a reasonable level of concealment for most people at most times.

Stages would need to considered here seriously. Either stages would be "split up" for Micro class shooters (add another start box mid-stage), or Micro shooters would only shoot a certain portion of each stage, or maybe one shot per target. This would need to be considered. But stages would generally stay as they are for most shooters. This is NOT an attempt to change the entire sport.

If you want to go one step further though, when a stage is designed, have a handout given to each competitor. It says something like "as you approach this stage, there will be a door that starts the timer. Open the door, and engage all targets. Move down the hall, and engage any more targets. The timer stops when you reach the door (marked with a red X) at the end of the hall - to your daughter's room - after safely neutralizing all targets." And that's it. Say nothing more. Allow no one to see the stage until they step up to shoot it. If you want to make it less of a game, make it REAL by making competitiors not know how many targets are where, and make them truly shoot them as they see them. Require tactical shooting, use of cover, and room sweeping technizues, for instance, in this stage.

The long and short of this - I want to practice, and at the same time be competitive - with my Ruger LC9, or whatever other dedicated CCW gun I decide to carry. I am very competent with my P226 competition gun, I need practice with the gun that is more likely to save my life.

This is what would bring me back to IDPA.

I hope this post does not offend those of you in IDPA. It is not meant to at all. This is just an idea, respectfully submitted. Thanks.

[ClutchUSMC]

If you want IDPA to be real then you are going to be shooting lots of 1 shot courses of fire. Or how about... turn, draw, and don't fire. It's been a long time since I was accosted by 3 pit bulls and 4 drug addicts...

If you want to practice and be competitive with your ruger LC9 then do it. No one is stopping you from shooting it in either game. If you think its likely to save your life why aren't you honing your skills already? Go shoot it in a match if you feel like it, any match. You don't have to have perfect gear fora game to learn how to use your carry gun.

IPDAs goofy scenarios are the least "real" part of that game IMO. I shoot it on occasion and have fun doing it. However, if you want a real CCW scenario the rules need to be written to say... fill your magazine to its intended capacity, only factory "self defense" type ammo allowed, 3 shot maximum course of fire, and a minimum of 2 no shoots for every shoot target, totally blind stages, start position is asleep in bed in your underwear in the dark.

Just as an example, in the last IDPA match I shot there was a stage that had you in a "phone booth" (because those are everywhere), turn and draw and engage 5 "muggers" from about 5 ft to 25ft. I did a standing reload with my CDP gun to finish the course of fire, no cover, just 5 bad guys who came up behind me, were all armed and dangerous enough I was justified in killing them. In reality I would have just given them my car keys and my wallet.

I have never been in a gunfight as a civilian. I have carried for about 6 years now. I have drawn my carry gun once, zero rounds fired. I was driving, cut someone off that I didn't see, my bad. Guy follows me... screams at me... throws a punch, gets one back... gets a good look at the business end of my carry gun and its over.

IDPA isn't going to train you what to do in a gunfight, its not going to give you valuable lessons about tactics. It is a good way to induce stress and moving to shooting. If you want to survive in a worst case scenario learn your gun, lean the fundamentals of marksmanship, know the manual of arms in your sleep, and practice shooting under stress with it as often as possible applying the basics as quickly as you can.

Edited February 4, 2013 by ClutchUSMC

[a.roberts]

I think allowing junk carry (AIWB) would make it more realistic.

Also, your system of allowing certain guns seems overly complicated.

Edited February 4, 2013 by a.roberts

[Model19]

Clutch said it well. We have BUG, which gets fairly close to what many really carry. But as long as pocket carry is against the rules, many of us will never be able to game the way we roll. But again, I defer to Clutch's assesment, it is accurate.

[motosapiens]

so, do you want real practice? or do you want to be competitive? if you just want real practice, just shoot the gun you already carry and don't worry about the results except to quantify your own improvement over time.

If you want to be competitive, then you have to accept that people will immediately stray from real-life (sorry, kittens) in favor of a competive edge.

At any rate, i also prefer USPSA, but I still go to my club's IDPA match every month and enjoy it. I'd probably enjoy it less if it were even more faux-real-life (meow) than it already is. It's always going to be pretend because if the targets shoot back, no one will enter the match.

Edited February 4, 2013 by motosapiens

[daves_not_here]

This is what we have around here - Caswell County NC - North of Hillsborough 2 hours 20 minutes away from Charlotte (Google maps).

http://caswellranch....on-association/

Five shots in the gun to start.

The targets are even different with smaller A zones to simulate reduced effectiveness of the .380 rounds.

There's a compact carry, You can even shoot small .22s. SP101 snubbies and Sig P238 are the guns that have proven to be the most reliable.

Give Dean a call.

I shoot IDPA out there. Plenty of people with carry rigs.

C'mon back,

DNH

Edited February 4, 2013 by daves_not_here

[Joe4d]

been saying for a long time IDPA should be about oh I dont know,,,, defensive pistol.

Guns should be seperated by size and weight. Not by triggers, Look at esp and ssp scores. Generally no difference in scores.

Keep CDP as 45 1911's are popular and they arnt competitive without their own protected division.

ESP, keep as is.

Eliminate SSP

CCP (compact carry pistol) basic SSP rules except no trigger action restrictions. but add a 1 inch block to the end of the IDPA box. IE box barely holds a 1911 commander. or 4 " Glock.

SCP (Sub compact carry pistol) ditto except ad a 1 inch blog to the long and short side of the IDPA box.

For a game that suppossed to be about defensive carry guns, kinda odd no carry guns are competitive.

[sperman]

In real life, if you knew there was a house full of bad guys, would you open the door?

[a.roberts]

In real life, if you knew there was a house full of bad guys, would you open the door?

On that same note,

IRL, would you pick a handgun instead of a rifle?

[swhiteh3]

Scott, If I knew my daughter (now 10 months old) were behind the door at the end of the haul, then yes, absolutely I would. Then again, I probably would NOT do it with my LC9 in my hands!

-Scott Whitehead

[jeff996]

As daves_not_here said, look into Caswell Ranch. Dean's a great guy.

[swhiteh3]

IDPA isn't going to train you what to do in a gunfight, its not going to give you valuable lessons about tactics. It is a good way to induce stress and moving to shooting. If you want to survive in a worst case scenario learn your gun, lean the fundamentals of marksmanship, know the manual of arms in your sleep, and practice shooting under stress with it as often as possible applying the basics as quickly as you can.

I agree with nearly all of what you said Clutch. For every day of IDPA or USPSA I've done, I've probably got two days of tactical training. (You can see it in how I shoot, like in close quarters I still bring the gun back to my chest for retention purposes after each area of targets). In many ways, even that can not prepare you for a real firefight. Nothing can.

I've trained in martial arts for years, including Krav Maga, Kick-boxing, Boxing, and Jiu-Jitsu, but none of it really prepared me to step in to a cage and fight (but I did it anyway!).

But I guess I wish that IDPA made just a bit more effort to be a little more realistic if that's their justification for rules like not dropping an empty magazine. It's possible to be a little more realistic than it is. Not completely realistic. As many have mentioned, there is no one shooting back. But it can be better. Things like blind stages would help a lot. (Being able to walk a stage and plan for it in your head is perhaps the worst way to take realism and stress out of the scenario).

Some have said "you can bring that gun and compete now". Well, not really, but I did think of that. I would need 6 or more magazines to complete some stages. As CLUTCH mentioned above, there is certainly an unrealistic element to the length of our stages, but I don't mind that so much. However, using a gun that only holds 5 in the magazine makes for some very real limitations. Hence my comment about having "Micro" shooters only shoot the first half of the stage, or shoot the stages in two halves, etc.

FWIW (and that's not much!), I like Joe4d's suggestions a lot.

-Scott

[motosapiens]

Some have said "you can bring that gun and compete now". Well, not really, but I did think of that. I would need 6 or more magazines to complete some stages. As CLUTCH mentioned above, there is certainly an unrealistic element to the length of our stages, but I don't mind that so much. However, using a gun that only holds 5 in the magazine makes for some very real limitations.

Well the limit for a stage is 18 rounds, so if you need 6 magazines, you must miss alot.

I had some of the same thoughts as you have expressed when I started shooting last year. I finally just did the sensible thing and started carrying a p01. I even sold my crappy plastic pocket gun.

[ben b.]

Just shoot your carry gun, from a belt holster. I sometimes do; take the Kahr out of the pocket holster, strap on a belt holster and some mag holders, enter SSP, and get beat. It's fine. There is no way to make a 'house clear' stage realistic with a timer, and IDPA is fun enough, with some very basic tactical considerations. Make it too real and it becomes training/practice, i.e., gets boring.

One thing that would be fun is if targets could be rigged to shoot back with paintballs. That would at least teach some of the merits of cover and movement.

[twodownzero]

IRL, would you pick a handgun instead of a rifle?

'IRL,' I don't pick fights. I may have to fight, but I won't be picking it. My attacker will.

[Racinready300ex]

I've shot IDPA several times with a 5 shot snub nose revolver, and had alot of fun. I would load some HKS speed loaders, and a couple speed strips and stick them in my pocket and go to town. And my goal was just to not come in last. lol

[hkguy]

Some have said "you can bring that gun and compete now". Well, not really, but I did think of that. I would need 6 or more magazines to complete some stages. As CLUTCH mentioned above, there is certainly an unrealistic element to the length of our stages, but I don't mind that so much. However, using a gun that only holds 5 in the magazine makes for some very real limitations. Hence my comment about having "Micro" shooters only shoot the first half of the stage, or shoot the stages in two halves, etc.

FWIW (and that's not much!), I like Joe4d's suggestions a lot.

-Scott

how is that different than shooting ESR/SSR capacity wise? there is no capacity difference shooting your gun that holds 5+1 and my revolver starting off with 6. Yes it really changes the dynamics of how you plan a stage and how you shoot, but to me that is half the fun. I've shot a few matches with my Kahrs instead of my HK P30 or STI Spartan, i did not do as well as i normally did, but i had a blast shooting my carry gun and carry rig.

to the OP on another note, i went and shot a BUG gun match and had a really good time. Perhaps you could step up a BUG match at your club so everyone can bring their "carry gear"

[tnd2]

I just started IDPA, and it's my first competitive pistol experiance, not a green shooter just green to the game. I shoot a G19(my occasional winter carry gun-OWB), with the usual trigger mods, OWB Bladetech holster/mag carriers in SSP. Im not going the full monty with a G34, handloads, etc.(yet) The G19 is not holding me back, just classed as SS, and it's my skill that limits me, and I plan to fix that. Still got to figure out my dislike of vests...

But I also desire to increase my skill with my full time carry(Sig P290RS), so once a month the local club holds a Revolver/IDPA Intro match based on IDPA rules but downloaded to 6rnds, plus (2) 6rnd mags/speedloaders for the wheel gunners, this is my time to bring the Sig with IWB holster, use weather dependant cover garments(jacket and tucked t-shirt if its cold, untucked t-shirt or light button-up shirt over a tucked t-shirt if it's warmer).

Im lucky to have a club that shoots indoor IDPA matches almost every other week, and the revolver matches once a month. If I din't have this luxery i'd enter twice- once for the G19 and care about overall results, and once with the Sig and care about my performance.

[Craig N]

This is about as small as I get 90% of the time. And I run a MTAC holster so I'd probably sweep myself every time I reholster since it holds it so close to my body IWB.

IDPA is a GAME just like USPSA neither are "Real Life".

[Roscoe09292010]

This is what we have around here - Caswell County NC - North of Hillsborough 2 hours 20 minutes away from Charlotte (Google maps).

http://caswellranch....on-association/

Five shots in the gun to start.

The targets are even different with smaller A zones to simulate reduced effectiveness of the .380 rounds.

There's a compact carry, You can even shoot small .22s. SP101 snubbies and Sig P238 are the guns that have proven to be the most reliable.

Give Dean a call.

I shoot IDPA out there. Plenty of people with carry rigs.

C'mon back,

DNH

As daves_not_here said, look into Caswell Ranch. Dean's a great guy.

+1

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

...I responded - make it JUST like real life.

Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good. IDPA isn't perfect, and can't become perfect, but it is good, and it can become better.

What we want is a sport the instills habits and skills that will be useful if we actually need to use our gun -- and does not instill habits or "training scars" that will cause us trouble.

When we talked about what that would include, I said I would like a class I could compete in COMPETITIVELY with the gun I carry everyday. I would guess that over 50% of us who carry EVERY DAY do not carry full sized firearms like those allowed in even the lowest IDPDA class, nor do we carry vast amounts of ammunition for an extended firefight.

How about a "micro" or "CCW" class?

I agree completely that the smaller guns should be a part of mainstream IDPA competition and not relegated to BUG matches at the club level. When we think about popular carry guns, that means Glock 19s and other compact pistols, down to true pocket pistols, often in .380.

Limit capacity to 6+1, or whatever supports this class appropriately. Calibers would include .380. One (or two) magazines on the belt limit.

The usual two-mag limit would put BUGs in line with full-size revolvers.

The definition of concealment might also need to be reconsidered, since a simple vest over a full holster is not a reasonable level of concealment for most people at most times.

Inside-the-waistband holsters seem reasonable.

Stages would need to considered here seriously. Either stages would be "split up" for Micro class shooters (add another start box mid-stage), or Micro shooters would only shoot a certain portion of each stage, or maybe one shot per target. This would need to be considered. But stages would generally stay as they are for most shooters. This is NOT an attempt to change the entire sport.

If the smaller guns can't compete on the same stages as the full-size guns, we have a problem.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Not-So-Mad Matt

[swhiteh3]

Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good. IDPA isn't perfect, and can't become perfect, but it is good, and it can become better.

Thank you. That's exactly what I was going for. I'm trying to make it a little MORE realistic. Any time there is a timer involved, and no one shooting back, it's not going to be exactly like real life...

[johnnny13]

I've been shooting my Glock 26 in IDPA. It's my every day carry and I still remain competitive.

[newboy]

Speed would be the last thing on my mind in a real situation, with a few exceptions.

[v1911]

I've used an XDs in a number of matches at my local club and even competed in a sanctioned BUG with it.

As others have stated. Have your local club MDs look up the BUG rules and have a night dedicated to it.

BUG matches are a little different but just as fun. It puts everyone on a level playing field and allows you some trigger time with your carry gun. Stage designs are of course tailored to the reduced capacity but still challenging.

BUG in IDPA is still in its infancy. There are still going to be some growing pains involved but I see the evolving product as an enjoyable one. It will still take some time to flesh out the details but it's something that is in the works with help from commited clubs willing to test the waters and gather the data needed for headquarters to shape the future of the BUG division.