Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[PatJones]

What I really don't get is this: Why are we having this discussion in USPSA when ICORE exists? Eight shots? Check. Minor only? Check. Speedloader division? Check. Big National match with great prizes? Check. Open Division for the bad eyesight crowd? Check. Regional matches with prizes and lots of competition? Check.

Here's the big question: What is it that USPSA has that you want, that's different from ICORE?

I am fortunate to live in an area that has a local ICORE match each month, many folks do not have that option.We don't get as big a turnout as the local USPSA matches do, 18 is a big month. With fewer shooters we set up fewer stages, usually a field course and a speed course with a couple plate racks. We shoot each one multiple times.

I really do enjoy shooting USPSA. When 75-80 shooters show the matches are bigger, there's more stages and more people to shoot with. I would always choose the ICORE match first because they're our people, but I might enjoy the USPSA matches more.

-pat

[azczshooter]

I'll just reiterate: I perform very, very few standing reloads. The last Nationals was one of the worst matches I've seen for it, and I think there was a grand total of three for the entire match. I make longer, more difficult shots to make it all come out right in the end, but that's part of the game. If the division turns into shooting a classifier at each port and then doing a reload to the next port with plenty of time for everyone, then I'll probably move back to Limited for USPSA where there's some breakdown to be done. I enjoy the mental aspect of the game more than the shooting, to be honest.

What I really don't get is this: Why are we having this discussion in USPSA when ICORE exists? Eight shots? Check. Minor only? Check. Speedloader division? Check. Big National match with great prizes? Check. Open Division for the bad eyesight crowd? Check. Regional matches with prizes and lots of competition? Check.

Here's the big question: What is it that USPSA has that you want, that's different from ICORE?

It would be nice to have a one gun and gear that would be able to be competitive and be able crossover in both arenas. I could and would be able to shoot the same revolver every weekend of the month weather that is ICORE or USPSA. I might be wrong but I believe ICORE has the largest number of revolver shooters and by making one of their more popular guns legal (also one that you can still purchase) it would give an instant boost to USPSA. So to answer the above question nothing. Many of us would like to shoot the same gun for both allowing for more trigger time.

Edited February 7, 2013 by azczshooter

[seanc]

I'll just reiterate: I perform very, very few standing reloads. The last Nationals was one of the worst matches I've seen for it, and I think there was a grand total of three for the entire match. I make longer, more difficult shots to make it all come out right in the end, but that's part of the game. If the division turns into shooting a classifier at each port and then doing a reload to the next port with plenty of time for everyone, then I'll probably move back to Limited for USPSA where there's some breakdown to be done. I enjoy the mental aspect of the game more than the shooting, to be honest.

What I really don't get is this: Why are we having this discussion in USPSA when ICORE exists? Eight shots? Check. Minor only? Check. Speedloader division? Check. Big National match with great prizes? Check. Open Division for the bad eyesight crowd? Check. Regional matches with prizes and lots of competition? Check.

Here's the big question: What is it that USPSA has that you want, that's different from ICORE?

What the guy with the cool hat said.

And in the words of a local ambassador, "you are just one motivated MD away from starting your own icore club"

I read this thread and can't help but feel like this is being driven by the singular anomaly that is Rio Salado.

40+ to a monthly icore match? That is more or same as number of people coming to many of the regional series matches. Most local icore clubs are seeing half that on a good month.

[Flexmoney]

If what Mike and Rob are proposing is a provisional change, why not try it?

It's not a provisional change. See my earlier post which quotes the applicable rules from the USPSA by-laws.

The way to test this...at an USPSA match...is to run a match that is a "recognized" match...not a Level I, Level II or Level III. Or,...if you have enough influence with your local shooters...talk everybody into vacating L-10, then dedicate L-10 to Revo (Major-6 and Minor-8).

[Bosshoss]

I'll just reiterate: I perform very, very few standing reloads. The last Nationals was one of the worst matches I've seen for it, and I think there was a grand total of three for the entire match. I make longer, more difficult shots to make it all come out right in the end, but that's part of the game. If the division turns into shooting a classifier at each port and then doing a reload to the next port with plenty of time for everyone, then I'll probably move back to Limited for USPSA where there's some breakdown to be done. I enjoy the mental aspect of the game more than the shooting, to be honest.

What I really don't get is this: Why are we having this discussion in USPSA when ICORE exists? Eight shots? Check. Minor only? Check. Speedloader division? Check. Big National match with great prizes? Check. Open Division for the bad eyesight crowd? Check. Regional matches with prizes and lots of competition? Check.

Here's the big question: What is it that USPSA has that you want, that's different from ICORE?

It would be nice to have a one gun and gear that would be able to be competitive and be able crossover in both arenas. I could and would be able to shoot the same revolver every weekend of the month weather that is ICORE or USPSA. I might be wrong but I believe ICORE has the largest number of revolver shooters and by making one of their more popular guns legal (also one that you can still purchase) it would give an instant boost to USPSA. So to answer the above question nothing. Many of us would like to shoot the same gun for both allowing for more trigger time.

625 is legal in ICORE limited and USPSA Revolver. The stages are even 6 shot friendly.

I see just as many 6 shot moonclipped guns in limited ICORE as 627's at our local matches(only 2 last year). Usually even numbers of Classic and Limited shooters.

[cliffwalsh]

Mike, I think you are being a little dramatic saying, " struggles like hell just to survive the friggin' match." A revolver shoots the same stages as everyone else with and on many stages with the same reloads and SS and Production and at worst 2 more on a 32 round course.

Is your point that reloads keep shooters away?? If that is the case surely they will go to open and skip revo completely.

[cliffwalsh]

]

625 is legal in ICORE limited and USPSA Revolver. The stages are even 6 shot friendly.

I see just as many 6 shot moonclipped guns in limited ICORE as 627's at our local matches(only 2 last year). Usually even numbers of Classic and Limited shooters.

Right

[Daniele]

More than 150 voters! Why so few USPSA revo shooters?

IPSC and USPSA Revo division is dying!

A medicine is needed, speedloader and minor are already a choice, a not winning choice!

8 minor may be appealing to gain NEW shooters in our beloved division; if this does not work, I fear we will shoot round gun only in ICORE and IDPA in 2016

[Matt Griffin]

I'll just reiterate: I perform very, very few standing reloads. The last Nationals was one of the worst matches I've seen for it, and I think there was a grand total of three for the entire match. I make longer, more difficult shots to make it all come out right in the end, but that's part of the game. If the division turns into shooting a classifier at each port and then doing a reload to the next port with plenty of time for everyone, then I'll probably move back to Limited for USPSA where there's some breakdown to be done. I enjoy the mental aspect of the game more than the shooting, to be honest.

What I really don't get is this: Why are we having this discussion in USPSA when ICORE exists? Eight shots? Check. Minor only? Check. Speedloader division? Check. Big National match with great prizes? Check. Open Division for the bad eyesight crowd? Check. Regional matches with prizes and lots of competition? Check.

Here's the big question: What is it that USPSA has that you want, that's different from ICORE?

It would be nice to have a one gun and gear that would be able to be competitive and be able crossover in both arenas. I could and would be able to shoot the same revolver every weekend of the month weather that is ICORE or USPSA. I might be wrong but I believe ICORE has the largest number of revolver shooters and by making one of their more popular guns legal (also one that you can still purchase) it would give an instant boost to USPSA. So to answer the above question nothing. Many of us would like to shoot the same gun for both allowing for more trigger time.

625 is legal in ICORE limited and USPSA Revolver. The stages are even 6 shot friendly.

I see just as many 6 shot moonclipped guns in limited ICORE as 627's at our local matches(only 2 last year). Usually even numbers of Classic and Limited shooters.

Again FWIW, but I've yet to actually shoot an ICORE match with my 627s. I bought them for ICORE but the pain in the ass of getting them smithed, getting the SC brass, getting the hearthco moonclips, developing a load, getting a holster and finally a rig that can hold Hearthco moonclips (still don't have this!) have kept me from even trying 8 shots in ICORE. I just shoot my 625s with my USPSA major ammo.

I also haven't lost a match or taken a standing reload yet, either.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Matt Griffin

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Another poll idea.

Do you own any of the following revolvers and would you shoot them in USPSA if there was a place for them where you could be competitive?

625 with moon clips major or minor

627 with or with out moon clips major or minor

K/L frame with speedloaders or moon clips major or minor

Other, name what you have.

Somebody else brought up IDPA before I did. Thank you.

Speedloader revolvers have changed revolver shooting in IDPA from a 625 division to a division where common revolvers that many people already have, are competitive.

I think shooting major in any revolver sucks. If you want to revive revolver have it be minor only like in Production and keep it 6 shots before a reload. There are way more 6 shot K/L frames out there in safes than either 625s or 627s. There is very little time difference between speedloaders and moon clips with practice and it has been shown in the past that a good speedloader shooter can win. Make revolver all minor and keep everything else the same. Jerry's hands will thank you.

Why do you all keep leaving out those of us with 7 shot

I am making my way back to revolver as soon as I can having shot with and competed with (although not real well) since 1980 when I started PPC. I have very bad hands (both were operated on in November) and will shoot minor PF as long as I can shoot.

With the help of PMD on this forum and a local friend, I have a 686 plus or minus . One gun, 2 cylinders both moon clipped. If I can shoot the 7 round cylinder in this sport and the others for now, great. I have been searching for an 8 shot for steel and to get back to ICORE and will end up ordering one from the factory no matter what is decided by USPSA.

If the 8 shot is allowed even on a provisional basis, I will use it. If not, I will use the 686 with the six shot cylinder shooting minor. I hope to be ready for fall.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[cliffwalsh]

I read this thread and can't help but feel like this is being driven by the singular anomaly that is Rio Salado.

40+ to a monthly icore match? That is more or same as number of people coming to many of the regional series matches. Most local icore clubs are seeing half that on a good month.

Here, at the home of the IRC, there were 15 revos and the icore match.

[Matt Griffin]

Another poll idea.

Do you own any of the following revolvers and would you shoot them in USPSA if there was a place for them where you could be competitive?

625 with moon clips major or minor

627 with or with out moon clips major or minor

K/L frame with speedloaders or moon clips major or minor

Other, name what you have.

Somebody else brought up IDPA before I did. Thank you.

Speedloader revolvers have changed revolver shooting in IDPA from a 625 division to a division where common revolvers that many people already have, are competitive.

I think shooting major in any revolver sucks. If you want to revive revolver have it be minor only like in Production and keep it 6 shots before a reload. There are way more 6 shot K/L frames out there in safes than either 625s or 627s. There is very little time difference between speedloaders and moon clips with practice and it has been shown in the past that a good speedloader shooter can win. Make revolver all minor and keep everything else the same. Jerry's hands will thank you.

Why do you all keep leaving out those of us with 7 shot

I am making my way back to revolver as soon as I can having shot with and competed with (although not real well) since 1980 when I started PPC. I have very bad hands (both were operated on in November) and will shoot minor PF as long as I can shoot.

With the help of PMD on this forum and a local friend, I have a 686 plus or minus . One gun, 2 cylinders both moon clipped. If I can shoot the 7 round cylinder in this sport and the others for now, great. I have been searching for an 8 shot for steel and to get back to ICORE and will end up ordering one from the factory no matter what is decided by USPSA.

If the 8 shot is allowed even on a provisional basis, I will use it. If not, I will use the 686 with the six shot cylinder shooting minor. I hope to be ready for fall.

Not to derail, but does that work with the same hand? Is it only the 8-shot guns that have different ratchet throws?

[cliffwalsh]

It has already been stated that 6 major vs 8 minor will never be fair to the 6 shooter unless a special stand alone match is set up and even then there will be chances to gain advantage with the 8 shots. All other matches all year will be unfair.

If you want to add 8 shooters, why does it have to me minor? Why not change the rule to any revo and let it go? UPSPA is speed power and accuracy. The point of major/minor is that if I lower my power, I must increase speed and accuracy.

Why should I be forced to shoot minor to be competitive in your new revo division??

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Another poll idea.

Do you own any of the following revolvers and would you shoot them in USPSA if there was a place for them where you could be competitive?

625 with moon clips major or minor

627 with or with out moon clips major or minor

K/L frame with speedloaders or moon clips major or minor

Other, name what you have.

Somebody else brought up IDPA before I did. Thank you.

Speedloader revolvers have changed revolver shooting in IDPA from a 625 division to a division where common revolvers that many people already have, are competitive.

I think shooting major in any revolver sucks. If you want to revive revolver have it be minor only like in Production and keep it 6 shots before a reload. There are way more 6 shot K/L frames out there in safes than either 625s or 627s. There is very little time difference between speedloaders and moon clips with practice and it has been shown in the past that a good speedloader shooter can win. Make revolver all minor and keep everything else the same. Jerry's hands will thank you.

Why do you all keep leaving out those of us with 7 shot

I am making my way back to revolver as soon as I can having shot with and competed with (although not real well) since 1980 when I started PPC. I have very bad hands (both were operated on in November) and will shoot minor PF as long as I can shoot.

With the help of PMD on this forum and a local friend, I have a 686 plus or minus . One gun, 2 cylinders both moon clipped. If I can shoot the 7 round cylinder in this sport and the others for now, great. I have been searching for an 8 shot for steel and to get back to ICORE and will end up ordering one from the factory no matter what is decided by USPSA.

If the 8 shot is allowed even on a provisional basis, I will use it. If not, I will use the 686 with the six shot cylinder shooting minor. I hope to be ready for fall.

Not to derail, but does that work with the same hand? Is it only the 8-shot guns that have different ratchet throws?

Luckily it works with the same hand but that took a little fitting from what Paul told me. Swap cylinder only and add a round.

[Bosshoss]

I'll just reiterate: I perform very, very few standing reloads. The last Nationals was one of the worst matches I've seen for it, and I think there was a grand total of three for the entire match. I make longer, more difficult shots to make it all come out right in the end, but that's part of the game. If the division turns into shooting a classifier at each port and then doing a reload to the next port with plenty of time for everyone, then I'll probably move back to Limited for USPSA where there's some breakdown to be done. I enjoy the mental aspect of the game more than the shooting, to be honest.

+1000% this is what the Revolver game is about IMO.

Our local matches are competing against each other to see who has the highest round count or so it seems. 6 stages 175-200 rounds. I love this the more shots the more fun. Even started seeing some 34-36 round count stages.

As Matt said in a local match I average 3-4 standing reloads and 1-2 of those are the usually required reloads for the classifier.

Sometimes I screw up and miss a steel or a plate on the star and have to do a reload but that is all on me.

Rarely ever do I get locked down into a standing reload but it happens and I just do it and go on. All the other revolver shooters have to do it to.

I admitt we have some really good MD's that set up fantastic courses of fire BUT they are NEVER Revolver netural, and I don't want them to be.

Why does everyone hate standing reloads? It is part of the game.

Even open shooters and limited shooters mess up and do a standing reload.

A 32 round field course will require 5 reloads with a 6 shot gun and 4 with a 8 shot gun. Thats only 1 more reolad.

I know the 8 shot guns *flow* better but if I wanted *flow* I would shoot any of the other divisions. Flow=EASY and to me at least boring compared to Revolver.

[Dragon11]

To be clear I'm totally fine with keeping the division the same, its what I learned and its how I like it. But, since this topic was brought up in regards to change, I would rather make it six and all minor then changed it to an eight shot division, for reasons alread stated. And I agree that I don't think a few extra reloads is considered difficult or hard. We're just reloading a gun, and my gun doesn't get any heavier with the more reloads I have to make.

[Matt Griffin]

Semiautos are all about panic while shooting, trying to chase the bouncing sight faster and faster. Revolvers are about being in a panic between the shooting, then calming down long enough to MAKE DAMN SURE YOU DON'T MISS and then panicking again. TomAYto, ToMAHto, but variety is nice.

[cliffwalsh]

+1000% this is what the Revolver game is about IMO.

Our local matches are competing against each other to see who has the highest round count or so it seems. 6 stages 175-200 rounds. I love this the more shots the more fun. Even started seeing some 34-36 round count stages.

As Matt said in a local match I average 3-4 standing reloads and 1-2 of those are the usually required reloads for the classifier.

Sometimes I screw up and miss a steel or a plate on the star and have to do a reload but that is all on me.

Rarely ever do I get locked down into a standing reload but it happens and I just do it and go on. All the other revolver shooters have to do it to.

I admitt we have some really good MD's that set up fantastic courses of fire BUT they are NEVER Revolver netural, and I don't want them to be.

Why does everyone hate standing reloads? It is part of the game.

Even open shooters and limited shooters mess up and do a standing reload.

A 32 round field course will require 5 reloads with a 6 shot gun and 4 with a 8 shot gun. Thats only 1 more reolad.

I know the 8 shot guns *flow* better but if I wanted *flow* I would shoot any of the other divisions. Flow=EASY and to me at least boring compared to Revolver.

Well put. What I'm getting from the 8 shot folks is that revolver is too hard the way it is with major and reloads. Is that the goal, to make USPSA easier? Will that get more shooters? Lets have a rimfire division. There are plenty of people who shoot rimfire that have be excluded from USPSA not to mention bringing in the kids and lets face it, if its for the kids, it has to be a good idea.

[cliffwalsh]

To be clear I'm totally fine with keeping the division the same, its what I learned and its how I like it. But, since this topic was brought up in regards to change, I would rather make it six and all minor then changed it to an eight shot division, for reasons alread stated. And I agree that I don't think a few extra reloads is considered difficult or hard. We're just reloading a gun, and my gun doesn't get any heavier with the more reloads I have to make.

Nobody says you have to shoot major every. If you want to shoot minor, do it. Wanting to make everyone shoot minor so you do not have to use the lower recoil to get better accuracy sounds pretty weak to me. (I'm using the word weak but I'm thinking something else)

Our scoring is based on speed power and accuracy. If you drop one, you need to pick up the others.

Sounds like you just want USPSA to be ICORE.

If major hurts you, shoot minor you have the choice. There are guys we shoot open minor and limited minor and I don't hear them wanting to drag everyone else down to their level. again, the site is icore.org.

[Carmoney]

I think everybody's position on this has been pretty well staked out. Thanks everybody for all the interesting and constructive input.

As a group, we appear to be roughly 2/3 in favor of allowing 8-minor, and 1/3 opposed. Both sides include highly-experienced and prominent revolver shooters.

As much as I favor the change, I don't believe we have a mandate at this point to change the rules.

I suggest we all look forward to a great 2013 USPSA Nationals (which I predict will be the greatest gathering of S&W 625s ever in one place!) and see how things shake out during the rest of the year. If we see proportional increases in participation at the various sectionals and area matches around the country, then I think that will mean that Revolver Division is alive and healthy. If by the end of 2013 we still have miserable participation in the division overall, I think it will be time to propose some changes through our board of directors.

[Matt Griffin]

I have two words for everyone who has trouble with Major in a revolver: grip tape. Slazenger doesn't sponsor me, I use the stuff for a reason. Revolvers aren't made correctly for two hand use or fast double action use, alter appropriately.

[alecmc]

What I really don't get is this: Why are we having this discussion in USPSA when ICORE exists? Eight shots? Check. Minor only? Check. Speedloader division? Check. Big National match with great prizes? Check. Open Division for the bad eyesight crowd? Check. Regional matches with prizes and lots of competition? Check.

Here's the big question: What is it that USPSA has that you want, that's different from ICORE?

I am fortunate to live in an area that has a local ICORE match each month, many folks do not have that option.We don't get as big a turnout as the local USPSA matches do, 18 is a big month. With fewer shooters we set up fewer stages, usually a field course and a speed course with a couple plate racks. We shoot each one multiple times.

I really do enjoy shooting USPSA. When 75-80 shooters show the matches are bigger, there's more stages and more people to shoot with. I would always choose the ICORE match first because they're our people, but I might enjoy the USPSA matches more.

-pat

x2 on that, I'd support a open revolver division in uspsa just because of the fact there is no icore matches in my state, if local clubs had monthly icore matches i'd probably feel different about it.

[cliffwalsh]

x2 on that, I'd support a open revolver division in uspsa just because of the fact there is no icore matches in my state, if local clubs had monthly icore matches i'd probably feel different about it.

There is not going to be an open revolver division, ever. If you mean an open revo category in open division, you can have a discussion.

[No.343]

This is slightly off topic, but I think it is applicable towards growing revolver division. The first one might be moot if we continue to have a separate Nationals.

1. Award every class winner at an Area match a slot for Nationals regardless of number of participants. I have to make arrangements ahead of time for vacation time and cannot gamble on a waiting list. I suspect other folks have this problem. I think that the posibility of being awarded a slot might motivate some of the C and D class shooters to go to a big match.

2. Newer shooters need mentoring and training. If they cannot find that they are not going to be very enthused about playing with the revolver. Most matches that I shoot outside of Oklahoma have very few if any revolver shooters. Last year I had a running joke about my long string of division wins. I've been shooting my revolver almost exclusively for four years and I only heard of one training session for revolvers.

[Dragon11]

Cliff,

I'm with you, I'm right there with you. If I came across confused I'm sorry. I like revolver the way it is, I like major. I didn't start hanging out with Phil Griggs and watching Matt, Mike, Jerry or you shoot to persuade people otherwise. It was for the sake of argument against the possibility of a forced change. I regret my clumsiness and not coming across more intelligent.

Ed