Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[No.343]

Here's a question I've always wondered, and since we have a good representation of both revo and non-revo shooters I'll ask it:

How big a barrier to entry is it knowing that you won't win a prize and you won't win overall, if Jerry is there? Do the low numbers make A-GM wins meaningless for shooters?

My first two years with revo were built around "Maybe I could?" And my last three years have been "I think I can, I think I can, I think I can . . ." and I've never really noticed my actual finishes or wins or near wins or losses, I'm just Ahab sailing for my white whale.

I know one pretty decent revolver shooter who hung up his six shooter because of lack of recognition at larger matches. I sometimes wonder how guys like you and Cliff can stay motivated when you only have competition once or twice a year. Scrubs like me can stay motivated because there are a few who could win amongst ourselves on any given day.

[seanc]

Here's a question I've always wondered, and since we have a good representation of both revo and non-revo shooters I'll ask it:

How big a barrier to entry is it knowing that you won't win a prize and you won't win overall, if Jerry is there? Do the low numbers make A-GM wins meaningless for shooters?

My first two years with revo were built around "Maybe I could?" And my last three years have been "I think I can, I think I can, I think I can . . ." and I've never really noticed my actual finishes or wins or near wins or losses, I'm just Ahab sailing for my white whale.

I'm just in my third year. I have no delusions about winning overalls anytime soon unless nobody good shows up.

Personally, I could care less about prize tables, I only care about my percentage compared to the winner. Prizes are great and all, but that is not at all a motivating factor for me.

I have only shot a couple of L2 and L3 matches with revo, and practically speaking, for me that means how am I doing against Josh Lentz, Dave Olhasso, and local GM Dave Park.

They are guys that driving distance away from big matches and show up.

I definitely want to know where I stand against a known GM, preferably against two or more so they are keeping each other honest and it gives me a more accurate measure of where I stand.

[Matt Griffin]

Here's a question I've always wondered, and since we have a good representation of both revo and non-revo shooters I'll ask it:

How big a barrier to entry is it knowing that you won't win a prize and you won't win overall, if Jerry is there? Do the low numbers make A-GM wins meaningless for shooters?

My first two years with revo were built around "Maybe I could?" And my last three years have been "I think I can, I think I can, I think I can . . ." and I've never really noticed my actual finishes or wins or near wins or losses, I'm just Ahab sailing for my white whale.

I know one pretty decent revolver shooter who hung up his six shooter because of lack of recognition at larger matches. I sometimes wonder how guys like you and Cliff can stay motivated when you only have competition once or twice a year. Scrubs like me can stay motivated because there are a few who could win amongst ourselves on any given day.

Mostly through booze and gambling. The shooting match is the low point of our Nationals experience. ;-)

[cliffwalsh]

I wish all the matches could be run in a manner that no defined amount of shots are required from any position and the COF designers understood or cared about keeping it balanced. Although we have lots of shooting around here, I can see why clubs other than my home one have IDPA shooters and we do not. Do you really wanna do 7 reloads with your 625? Not many here do...

Is the goal to reduce reloads?? Will that bring more people??

Reloading is a skill that that with practice can give you an edge if you are better then the next guy. I don't like to think that if we make it easier, more will shoot it.

I know we have a poll here but how many of these guys shoot nationals?? There are more than 17 votes. I know the guys who come out and shoot the local matches are important to the sport but are we going to completely change the division so the guy up there can see his name with revolver next to it. Have the match director put you in revo. Who is going to care??

As Rob said, this effects the shooters at the top greatly. We are talking about nationals here but it will effect every Area and sectional I shoot. I shot the area 2 last year vs Bagakiss and Rich W. They would have won with their 8 shots easily and I would have stayed home. For everyone who just shoots club matches, lets make a rule that match directors can put anyone in any division they want at club matches.

It bothers me that people would change something like this so they can shoot 2 more shots or see their name with different words next to it one Sunday a month.

Here is an Idea, lets make a revolver category in every division. Open, production, Limited, L-10, and SS. Provisional for 3 years and see who comes out and shoots. We might find out there is a big need for open revo, who knows?? We might also find out that outside of club matches, nobody does any of it and we have not destroyed what is the revolver division we have now.

[B_Seehawer]

I'm all for allowing 8 shot revolvers being allowed!!!

Sure would speed up matches:D

[ChrisC]

Cliff brings up a point, a provisional open-revolver, limited-revolver, production-revolver would be the good way to see if other revolvers will come out and play with out harming the core revolver division groups.

I attend major matches because of the challenge they provide and the comradely that revolver shooters provide. not the prize table. but my point was to attract more people into revolver it might be acceptable for revolver shooters to shoot for less since they aren't getting as much in return as the other divisions. I think that is a big turn off for most shooters.. why work your ass off for no return to shoot against maybe a handful of others in your class if any and pay as much as the shooter that gets rewarded in another division because of the number of like participants.

Me: B class revolver shooter

2011 I shot revolver at the arkansa state match, area 5, area 4, and the MCC.

2012 I shot the Mississippi Classic, The IRC, LPR Nationals, and the MCC

I don't want to count up all the local matches I shoot revolver in.. there were times I was the only one or one of only two.

[Ty Hamby]

With evidence that only 17 people with the means to travel nationally like revolver as it is makes it due time to revisit everything about the current division. I appreciate Mike and Rob for starting a dialect about this. I do hope that whatever changes (if any) that are made are in fact for the benefit if the sport and not the benefit of the few.

From what I am reading and understand, the majority of Enos regulars interested in revolvers are leaning towards changing up Revolver division. Or more appropriately, erasing Revolver division as we know it an creating a new division, where new, or different revolvers will prevail over the current 5" or 6.5" 25/625 series do today.

I say "great" The revolver division as we know today is dead. The turnout is not going up it is going down. I think the USPSA members that own a 625 (like me) and still refuse to shoot revolver division with it will only get bigger. I absolutely respect the few die hard loyalists who are having the time of their life in revolver, and what changing it would mean to them. For them I feel your pain. I cant imagine the thought of ICORE limited changing anything. I LOVE it, just the way it is. But for me, if USPSA keeps it like it is I will still return to L10 with my 627. Then I predict USPSA revolver in time will only exist in the history books.

Speaking only for myself I don’t shoot revolver division in USPSA because of the 8 shot arrays with a 6 round gun. I like the lower PF of the 627, however that is not the killer as much as I complain about it. If USPSA removed the bump to open (make it a procedural or something) and made revolver a minor only division I may shoot it with an 8 shot using the current 6 shot rule. Other than that I will continue to shoot my 625 revolver in IDPA. And my 627 in L10/Limited.

Thanks for reading and wish me luck as I fly 3000 miles with my 625 to the IDPA indoor nationals in 2 weeks.

[Matt Griffin]

All I know is that I want this as my shirt:

[TGO]

I wish all the matches could be run in a manner that no defined amount of shots are required from any position and the COF designers understood or cared about keeping it balanced. Although we have lots of shooting around here, I can see why clubs other than my home one have IDPA shooters and we do not. Do you really wanna do 7 reloads with your 625? Not many here do...

Is the goal to reduce reloads?? Will that bring more people??

Yes, since the guys shooting L10 with there 627's now would be in revolver instead.

Reloading is a skill that that with practice can give you an edge if you are better then the next guy. I don't like to think that if we make it easier, more will shoot it.

Regardless, it will.

I know we have a poll here but how many of these guys shoot nationals?? There are more than 17 votes. I know the guys who come out and shoot the local matches are important to the sport but are we going to completely change the division so the guy up there can see his name with revolver next to it. Have the match director put you in revo. Who is going to care??

The Rules??

As Rob said, this effects the shooters at the top greatly. We are talking about nationals here but it will effect every Area and sectional I shoot. I shot the area 2 last year vs Bagakiss and Rich W. They would have won with their 8 shots easily and I would have stayed home. For everyone who just shoots club matches, lets make a rule that match directors can put anyone in any division they want at club matches.

So why have any rules then?

It bothers me that people would change something like this so they can shoot 2 more shots or see their name with different words next to it one Sunday a month.

??????

Here is an Idea, lets make a revolver category in every division. Open, production, Limited, L-10, and SS. Provisional for 3 years and see who comes out and shoots. We might find out there is a big need for open revo, who knows?? We might also find out that outside of club matches, nobody does any of it and we have not destroyed what is the revolver division we have now.

Wait, you don't want to change one thing so instead you want to change everything?

I can only say I am but a humble bottom feeder, but own more revolvers than anyone I know. Having the Nationals separate is the most important thing. We have that now. The next step is to get local club participation to a level that the division will prosper.

NRA Action shooting is so hard that while the Nationals (Bianchi Cup) is well attended, there is very little activity outside of that one match. NRA Action Shooting Has responded to that by adding a new beginner level course. Not necessarily for beginning shooters, but easy enough to entice other than Master level shooters to come out.

Revo in USPSA needs something like this, a shock to the system to draw attention too and get more shooters into the division.

[TGO]

All I know is that I want this as my shirt:

This is awesome. Jerry the Merciless!! I guess I really didn't see him as evil, but I like the idea?? Edited February 6, 2013 by TGO

[Carmoney]

Captain Ahab. That's funny-ass stuff right there!

[cliffwalsh]

Rob, I didn't say change everything. I said let set up some provisional categories so we can see who really wants to shoot what before we change revolver division. Why not get some actual evidence that the change will work other than guys sitting at computers many of whom probably have not shot a major match. Creating provisional categories allows shooters to vote by showing up without altering anything other than having a few extra plaques. I am advocating not changing anything until we have evidence it will help. This whole thing is starting to sound like, we will read the bill after we pass it.

There is not reason to believe adding 8 shot guns to the mix will increase participation at nationals. I think we know the problem from your remarks. You like revo but would shoot almost anything else if there was a choice. I know Shannon Smith feels the same way. Having a stand alone match solves that. Having it after the Classic is even better because all you guys are already there. Why do we have to do anything else right now??

[toothguy]

I'm glad this is being talked about. I still shoot civilian PPC and for many years the members tried to get a civilian division started. Just last year the OK was given but everyone who cared is either dead, dying or moved on. Bianchi a couple of years ago was in a down turn and was turned around with some pretty simple solutions. Even though I don't shoot production in Bianchi, I benefit from the changes because the match will still be there.

[cliffwalsh]

Speaking only for myself I don’t shoot revolver division in USPSA because of the 8 shot arrays with a 6 round gun. I like the lower PF of the 627, however that is not the killer as much as I complain about it. If USPSA removed the bump to open (make it a procedural or something) and made revolver a minor only division I may shoot it with an 8 shot using the current 6 shot rule. Other than that I will continue to shoot my 625 revolver in IDPA. And my 627 in L10/Limited.

Thanks for reading and wish me luck as I fly 3000 miles with my 625 to the IDPA indoor nationals in 2 weeks.

Ty, I have to call BS on most of that. You don't like shooting 8 shot arrays with 6 shots and you like minor. IDPA with a 625 in Major and there is no 6 round array rule. They have 8 and 7 shot arrays too and every reload is standing. The reasons you give for flying 3000 miles to shoot IDPA there and not USPSA doesn't make since. What is the difference between two revolver games???

IDPA is shooting and I enjoy it. Their courses are smaller, the shots are easier, and there are few options as to how to shoot a stage. I do not find it as much fun as USPSA.

[cliffwalsh]

Ty does bring up one good point. IPSC has the rule that firing more than 6 shots is a procedural in USPSA you get bumped to open.

Is that something that we could look at changing?? The question is can you change that rule for revo only?? I don't know if the L-10 or production would want it changed too.

Changing our division to 8 round guns will put us even farther away for the the rest of the world. When we go to world shoots or other IPSC matches, we will only be allowed 6 shots.

[forddriver]

I think there should be an Open Revolver divison.

Would be just like regular open just with revolvers. That would mean you could use a 6,8, or 10 shot.

I personally would be willing to try it.

[B_Seehawer]

I think there should be an Open Revolver divison.

Would be just like regular open just with revolvers. That would mean you could use a 6,8, or 10 shot.

I personally would be willing to try it.

I think Open Revolver would be a terrible idea.

I don't that other guys are gonna quit shooting another division just because they can throw a dot and comp on a gun that is "on it's way out" in USPSA .

Almost sounds like some people are hunting for wood by wanting to make changes that suits them better by switching divisions.

[TGO]

Rob, I didn't say change everything. I said let set up some provisional categories so we can see who really wants to shoot what before we change revolver division. Why not get some actual evidence that the change will work other than guys sitting at computers many of whom probably have not shot a major match. Creating provisional categories allows shooters to vote by showing up without altering anything other than having a few extra plaques. I am advocating not changing anything until we have evidence it will help. This whole thing is starting to sound like, we will read the bill after we pass it.

There is not reason to believe adding 8 shot guns to the mix will increase participation at nationals. I think we know the problem from your remarks. You like revo but would shoot almost anything else if there was a choice. I know Shannon Smith feels the same way. Having a stand alone match solves that. Having it after the Classic is even better because all you guys are already there. Why do we have to do anything else right now??

I agree 1000% Cliff. It will not affect the Nationals. That is probably already fixed.

Think we should do exactly as you said about trying this out first. I'm just ready to go now.

As for how much I'm gonna get to shoot revo, you are right in that I'll shoot other divisions before revolver at major matches. On the club level it is different. I've shot and will be shooting as much revo as possible around here before Barry.

I like the lower recoil of the minor but am not willing to give up the major points until I get a round capacity advantage, IF that ever happens.

[toothguy]

I think there should be an Open Revolver divison.

Would be just like regular open just with revolvers. That would mean you could use a 6,8, or 10 shot.

I personally would be willing to try it.

I think Open Revolver would be a terrible idea.

I don't that other guys are gonna quit shooting another division just because they can throw a dot and comp on a gun that is "on it's way out" in USPSA .

Almost sounds like some people are hunting for wood by wanting to make changes that suits them better by switching divisions.

Adding an open revolver division would be a way to tryout these ideas without hurting anyone. Kind of a stand alone experimental division.

You know as soon as this gets sorted out, Smith and wesson will introduce a 10 shot 9mm X-frame.

Edited February 6, 2013 by toothguy

[cliffwalsh]

I think there should be an Open Revolver divison.

Would be just like regular open just with revolvers. That would mean you could use a 6,8, or 10 shot.

I personally would be willing to try it.

I think Open Revolver would be a terrible idea.

I don't that other guys are gonna quit shooting another division just because they can throw a dot and comp on a gun that is "on it's way out" in USPSA .

Almost sounds like some people are hunting for wood by wanting to make changes that suits them better by switching divisions.

Adding an open revolver division would be a way to tryout these ideas without hurting anyone. Kind of a stand alone experimental division.

The way to try it out is a revolver category in open. Creating a new division is not hoe you experiment.

[Matt Griffin]

NRA Action shooting is so hard that while the Nationals (Bianchi Cup) is well attended, there is very little activity outside of that one match. NRA Action Shooting Has responded to that by adding a new beginner level course. Not necessarily for beginning shooters, but easy enough to entice other than Master level shooters to come out.

Revo in USPSA needs something like this, a shock to the system to draw attention too and get more shooters into the division.

Again, I may be atypical, but the reason I don't shoot PPC is because it's very hard to find a match, the NRA website is awful for finding a match, and the Bianchi Cup insists on taking up a week's worth of vacation days in order to shoot the match. Change two out of those three and I'll gladly shoot it.

As for Jerry, he's fierce, not evil. Also he bit off my leg.

[seanc]

All I know is that I want this as my shirt:

A hat..I mean what could make that more perfect for you?

Hah!

[Buffalobolt]

I understand the reasoning behind not wanting to make large changes to the division if the majority of the shooter's never attend an upper level match, and they primarily just shoot at the local level.

However, I would throw this out there; I personally have not traveled to larger matches, because I do only shoot a 627.

As an example: I had planned on going to the MCC this past year. Sounded like a good time, and a great cause. I initially thought it was ran under ICORE rules (I even joined ICORE with no matches close to me, just so I could go to the MCC.) When I realized it was ran under IPSC rules I didn't go. I wasn't sure (and didn't ask, as I didn't want to ask the "dumb question") what happens at a "Revolver Only" match (MCC, Nationals, etc) when you screw up shoot that seventh round? There is no "Open" to be sent to.... Is it a DQ??

If you currently only shoot a 627 in IPSC, you'll not be inclined to shoot at larger matches for that reason. I may shoot my 627 in the Sectional this year in Production, but there is no reason for me to spend the time/money in traveling to larger matches, only to shoot one extra shot and be (for all intents, and purposes) DQ'd...

How many others are in the same position?? Maybe not enough to warrant a change, but from the discussions here, it seems there "some" better alternative... (eliminate the bump to Open?)

[Henry625]

I take exception to the statement:

I don't think that other guys are gonna quit shooting another division just because they can throw a dot and comp on a gun that is "on it's way out" in USPSA .

I shoot with a group that has a pistol for EVERY USPSA division! One more division is a reason to buy another pistol.

I shoot ICORE Open division with a S&W R8 and USPSA with a S&W 625, Open Revolver would give me another division to shoot in USPSA matches.

Why not try it?

[Rogan]

Cliff, I agree with many of your statements. I really enjoy the stage breakdown, the decisions on which shots to take where and how to maximize reloading time. The difficultly of mastering the equipment and learning stage planning (being creative) are the fun aspects of the division.

But there are a few negatives for me as well:

I mentioned stage design in an earlier post. Many of the uspsa stages I shoot don't offer much in the way of creativity. Many stages take the 8shot-neutral rule to mean that the shooter can only take 8 shots from box A and then can only take 7 shots from box B then take 8 shots from box C. On those stages, there is no creativity, since the stage can only be shot one way. You eat the standing reloads and can't take advantage of creative shooting or run the stage in an alternative way. Good stage design is the single most important factor for our entire sport, regardless of division! And it may not be getting the attention it deserves. I know it's a challenge, I've designed stages and matches too. So when I see a match that has the majority of the shooters shooting the stage exactly the same way (cause there is no alternative), I get bored and loose interest.

My other concern is the same problem that has been addressed by the stand alone nationals. If the shooter has a choice between shooting "major 6" revolver (cause let's face it, if major is an option, the better points from major are better and everyone competes cause they want to test their skills and be better) or shooting production (minor), most shooters are going to choose to shoot production. Production is the largest division, if it's not, it grew quicker than other division and has the easiest price tag for entry into the sport.

So having the stand alone revo nationals is already a huge positive change for the division. Shooters don't have to pick between their divisions.

I shoot most often at Rio Salado in AZ. A large, well funded shooting club that offers 10+ action shooting matches per month that are attended by 80+ shooter at every match. In the uspsa matches, how many revolvers are competing? Never more than three! I personally have never shot a uspsa monthly match with more than one other revo shooter. I became so discouraged that I stopped shooting uspsa. Why go shoot a match by myself? I can't discuss stage breakdown, plans of attack or compare my scores with anyone.

On the other hand, if I attend the icore match, I get to shoot with 40+ revolver shooters, from D class to GM, and I can shoot any revolver I want too!!!! There is a place for me no matter what revo gear I choose to use. When I started with revo 6+ years ago, I found a revo family. Many of these shooters have become good friends and I look forward to seeing them at the monthly match.

I certainly don't have the answers. But revo in uspsa is restrictive in many ways. The division can stay the same, and maybe die out, or it can try some new ideas to see if it can flourish and grow.

Rich Brethour