Production optics

[Nimitz]

there are many different definitions of "being competitive" ...

[zhunter]

there are many different definitions of "being competitive" ...

And with ALL due respect, it's not B Class

[ZackJones]

I understand that but It is being used as the basis for the argument that you can't be competitive in open on a budget, and that I believe is false

I will agree with that. If you have the skills you can be competitive with any gun.

[Racinready300ex]

I suggest folks could shoot PO for $800 (500 glock, 300 fastfire plus dovetail mount), people say don't be ridiculous;

Assuming that those numbers are good, that still doesn't cut it. You need a holster, belt, mag pouches, and 6 mags just to get started. Most people I see shooting for the first time only have two mags and two mag pouches. They can't do very well in production with that, and these are the guys we are claiming this will attract.

If you are willing to do PO on the cheap, why not shoot open on the cheap? Everyone seems to assume you need to spend thousands to be competitive in open. I don't think that is true. It will cost you about $300 more for a open glock than a PO glock. And plenty of guys have done well like that. So we create a whole new division to save 300 bucks? Or is it just so we can kind of shoot open with out spending 5k dollars? How about we just call it poor mans open, and ditch the production rules. Create this new cheaper open from the ground up. Or just shoot open.

[trgt]

Guess different areas, different experience. Around here at three different clubs, first timers take a half day safety course first, so none of them show up first match with only two mags. And they seem to be generally starting production, with odd one here or there SS if they have a 1911, or Limited/L10 if they've modded something.

Edited August 12, 2014 by trgt

[Nimitz]

I'm reading lots of posts with anecdotal references to being competitive in open without a custom built gun but I don't see any factual data. When I look at match results in open or watch the top shooters at bigger matches I usually see the high end SVI, Akai, Brazos guns at the top.

Also, I think major power factor is mandatory to be competitive in open and this is the one thing that keeps me away from it at this time. And please don't try to tell me me it's not necessary becuase if that were true most people wouldn't bother with all the hassle major requires

[motosapiens]

While I am I'm favor of some sort of optics division (just not one tied to the production rill set as it is) I keep seeing people talk about the cost of open. I shoot the gun in my avatar (a glock 22 in 357 sig) in open and am competitive in B class with it. I believe I have just over 1K in it including the mags

I think when we are talking about the high cost of open we are referring to the master blasters from STI/AKAI/SVI that shoot .38 Super. At least that's what I think when I'm talking about an expensive open gun.

And the apparent assumption is that unless you spend all the money for one of those master blasters, you will not have fun, not be able to progress as a shooter, and have zero chance of winning the bass boat that is awarded to the top b-class open shooter at our monthly match. I'm starting to see the same kind of attitude developing around production, where peeps are starting to believe you have no chance of winning the b-class production bass boat (actually it's a motor home at our monthly match) unless you have an accu-shadow or a mafia connection of sufficient power to get a tanfoglio. I just don't buy it.

What exactly does competitive mean, anyway? Does it mean 'having a chance to win'? Because for all except 10-15 national level shooters, no one is competitive unless they get lucky and the good shooters don't show up to that match. So the rest of us are really just competing against ourselves and trying to improve our skills. Yeah, you might 'win' some local event, but only because the competitive guys weren't there.

[toothguy]

I didn't read all of this thread so if someone else has mentioned this forgive me. About 20 yrs ago the NRA changed the Bullseye rules to include the use of reddot sights. The change allowed the 50 year old shooters to stay competitive into there 70's. Not something you see a reason for till you are in your late 40's.

[Racinready300ex]

I'm reading lots of posts with anecdotal references to being competitive in open without a custom built gun but I don't see any factual data. When I look at match results in open or watch the top shooters at bigger matches I usually see the high end SVI, Akai, Brazos guns at the top.

Also, I think major power factor is mandatory to be competitive in open and this is the one thing that keeps me away from it at this time. And please don't try to tell me me it's not necessary becuase if that were true most people wouldn't bother with all the hassle major requires

You're right, the top shooters at the biggest matches shoot custom guns. Except for KC anyway. I didn't realize this division was being proposed so the Top Shooters would have some where to shoot. Everyone talks like it's for drawing in new shooters, and for old people with bad eyes that don't want a open gun. The reality is people have made M and GM with open glocks, so ask yourself. Am I a GM? If not is it becuase my gun wasn't custom built? I doubt it.

I do think major is probably pretty close to mandatory in open. Someone should come out with a new round that will make major that you can use with out needing 9 major. I'm thinking something you could buy off the shelf, a little bigger than a 9 but smaller than a 45. That way you can make major and still get a decent number of rounds in a 170mm mag. Who am I kidding, that's silly. 5k custom gun + 1k for reloading gear, etc is the only way to go.

[amish_rabbi]

What do you mean KC doesn't shoot a custom gun? He has a $1000 optic on a glock that shares exactly one part with a stock glock, and that's the frame. Everything else is a custom part and if you tried to order the same gun from glockworx I'm sure it would cost just as much as an Akai.

they do make something bigger than a 9 but not a .45 that makes major no problem, its called .357sig/9x40. however, just like shooting minor vs shooting major, no one wants to take the capacity hit that it would require. (its actually decently popular in Canada where capacity isn't an issue)

personally I have enough shooting skills that I need to work on, I don't want to have to compensate for a gun that is 2 or 3 steps below what my competitors are shooting. I also don't shoot to be competitive in whatever class I'm in, I shoot to win the match outright, that's it. Do I win? not usually but that doesn't mean I go "well, I won A class, good enough", it means I look at my match and go "Ok, need to practice this this and this skill"

I posted in the other poll thread, but I'd like to see the division simply because its about the only way my gf will ever get into competition because of her eyes and not liking the feel of major pf ammo.

[Gooldylocks]

I'm pretty sure racinready was being sarcastic and talking about 40...

But I do agree that no one wants to be shooting a 357/40 when they get 24 or 25 rounds in a big stick versus 28 or 29 in 38/9.

[amish_rabbi]

Hmmmm i may have missed that sarcasm lol

[OUshooter]

While I am I'm favor of some sort of optics division (just not one tied to the production rill set as it is) I keep seeing people talk about the cost of open. I shoot the gun in my avatar (a glock 22 in 357 sig) in open and am competitive in B class with it. I believe I have just over 1K in it including the mags

I think when we are talking about the high cost of open we are referring to the master blasters from STI/AKAI/SVI that shoot .38 Super. At least that's what I think when I'm talking about an expensive open gun.

And the apparent assumption is that unless you spend all the money for one of those master blasters, you will not have fun, not be able to progress as a shooter, and have zero chance of winning the bass boat that is awarded to the top b-class open shooter at our monthly match. I'm starting to see the same kind of attitude developing around production, where peeps are starting to believe you have no chance of winning the b-class production bass boat (actually it's a motor home at our monthly match) unless you have an accu-shadow or a mafia connection of sufficient power to get a tanfoglio. I just don't buy it.

What exactly does competitive mean, anyway? Does it mean 'having a chance to win'? Because for all except 10-15 national level shooters, no one is competitive unless they get lucky and the good shooters don't show up to that match. So the rest of us are really just competing against ourselves and trying to improve our skills. Yeah, you might 'win' some local event, but only because the competitive guys weren't there.

Moto couldn't be more on target. A prod gun with a dot will only make you competitive with other shooters of your skill level. If you are B in P, and you add a dot then you are going to be B in PO. And still won't beat the shooters in P that are solid A.

Speaking of on target you know what the fastest growing segment of Handgun buyers is? Women and polymer frames for carry. That's your facts, look it up. And not polymers with dots, glocks xdm m&p these are your leaders. Not pink handles, but down in the business handguns. So if you want to grow the sport follow the industry trends, and slide ride dots are a industry niche not the future.

[Nimitz]

while I certainly agree that adding a dot won't make you a better shooter if you have other shooting fundamentals issues, if you legitimately are having trouble seeing irons well and/or focusing quickly between front & rear sight and therefore have lost your competitive edge against those who can still do this (your other shooting skills still being up to par with these shooters), then an optic is a way to gain back some performance. For all you 20 something & 30 somethings out there who are having trouble believing this is true just wait, you'll see we were right a few years down the road ...

I experienced this when I took up Steel Challenge last year and shot my production gun and an open rimfire gun. I went from finishing in the middle of the pack in center fire to winning local matches and also winning stages against arguably the best shooter in our club ( a 5 div master class USPSA shooter) in open rimfire where we were both shooting dot guns.

So what's going on here? Did I just magically get better over night? Nope. I can see much faster with a dot gun then an iron sight gun and am therefor able to shoot faster. All my other skills are basically the same regardless of which gun I'm shooting. And it's not a centerfire vs rimfire thing either as I have an STI Steelmaster and experience the same thing with that ...

As for the fastest growing segment of handgun buyers ... please sight your source. I don't buy that slide ride dots are just a niche ....

Edited August 13, 2014 by Nimitz

[BritinUSA]

Production Optics is up for review at the September BOD meeting, just posted on USPSA.org

• Review of New Division request: Production Optics

[D.Hayden]

Production Optics is up for review at the September BOD meeting, just posted on USPSA.org

• Review of New Division request: Production Optics [/size]

Nice.. no real interest, but I can't see how trying it out matters. If everyone in a match was in a different division - who cares? I always look at overall anyways, as long as people are enjoying themselves.. why care what they shoot?

[Jaycwebb]

Production Optics is up for review at the September BOD meeting, just posted on USPSA.org

• Review of New Division request: Production Optics [/size]

Nice.. no real interest, but I can't see how trying it out matters. If everyone in a match was in a different division - who cares? I always look at overall anyways, as long as people are enjoying themselves.. why care what they shoot?

This.

[Racinready300ex]

What do you mean KC doesn't shoot a custom gun? He has a $1000 optic on a glock that shares exactly one part with a stock glock, and that's the frame. Everything else is a custom part and if you tried to order the same gun from glockworx I'm sure it would cost just as much as an Akai.

Who cares how much his optic cost? A $200 C-more will do the same job. You'd have to pay me to put that massive thing on my gun. And I'm guessing they have to pay him too. lol. His gun is still a glock. So he probably changed the trigger, but it still functions like a glock so it can't be all that different. I'm sure all the parts in the slide are different, but you can change all that for production too can't you? And does a different slide really make any major change to the performance of the gun? He may have spent alot, he's got a lot riding on that gun working, so I don't blame him for wanting it the best it can be. I just don't think you have to spend 5k to do well in open. I could be wrong, but I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and give it a shot.

As for PO, I'm glad it's going to the BOD and I'll write my AD and see what his thoughts are on it. I'm a little on the fence, as I think it would be a good division for my girlfriend to start in. Although she really wants to shoot revolver so it probably doesn't matter what I think.

There was some sarcasm in my last post, but my point was that I think people worry a bit to much about having the best gear. Will that newer better gun make your splits or transtions that much faster? Any faster? If the cheap gun can shoot A's, will the more expensive gun really shoot more A's? Or do you still need to line the Dot up the same way to get that A?

I do tend to go against the grain I guess, probably why I shoot revolvers.lol

[Nimitz]

Excellent!

As to folks who only look at the overall at a match ... trying to compare results from shooters in different divisions makes absolutely no sense on any level ... it's not even close to a level playing field. Sorry, but the overall in a match means noting unless you are shooting open ...

As just one example: at this year's US Steel National Championship Sevigny finished 16th overall in the centerfire match shooting in the Production division. However, he won the production division but didn't even come close in the overall. Of the 15 shooters who finished ahead of him, a bunch were what I'll call non name shooters. How is that possible that a bunch of these guys could beat someone who is arguably one of the top shooters in the country? Easy, they were good shooters who were shooting open against a great shooter shooting production. There is no comparison ...

[motosapiens]

Excellent!

As to folks who only look at the overall at a match ... trying to compare results from shooters in different divisions makes absolutely no sense on any level ... it's not even close to a level playing field. Sorry, but the overall in a match means noting unless you are shooting open ...

It doesn't bother me if you feel that way, but I find that the overall is much more useful to me in local matches than division or 'class' results. At a major where there are 100+ people in my division, I pretty much ignore the other divisions, but at a local match, I know which guys in the other divisions I'm usually close to. Obviously if I'm shooting production and they're shooting limited or open, I must be mo bettah baller to be close to them, but the point is I know who they are and where I normally stack up, so if I beat a bunch of shooters in other divisions that I usually don't beat, I know I had a good match.

I might 'win' my 'class', or even my 'division', but at a local match that could easily just be because no one good showed up. Comparing myself against shooters in the other divisions gives me a better metric of my performance because it's simply a larger pool with a more consistent distribution.

Of course this probably only makes sense if your focus is to improve over time. If your only focus is to 'win', then the best strategy is to shoot L10 at local matches.

Edited August 13, 2014 by motosapiens

[Nimitz]

nah, the best plan would be to shoot revo ...

[motosapiens]

nah, the best plan would be to shoot revo ...

The problem with that is it would hold up the match too much, so not only would everyone know you were a hider, but they'd be annoyed at being late for dinner too.

[theblacknight]

I'm a production shooter. I shoot no other division. The division has enough problems as it is because everyone seems to have their own idea of what they think production should be even tho they might not even shoot production.

I have no problem with this new idea.

However, it shouldn't be a subset of production nor share it's name,because that's dishonest as to why these type of guns are being built in the 1st place. It should be a subset of Open. Open Carry division.

Why Open Carry? People arnt just slapping a optic on their otherwise production legal carry gun and carrying it.

They always have back up irons, not production legal. They often times have NON Production legal things like full stipple jobs, total grip recontouring, mag rip slot cuts, full slide serrations over the whole dam slide, weapon lights/lazers, threaded barrels, mag button relief cuts, duty style mag wells like the Rogers grip adapter and Sentinel magwell, etc etc etc.

If open carry was innacted, ALL of those things should be legal in the division. If anything, the back up irons should be required if a dot is attached. Open Carry Division should allow AIWB placement of holsters unlike production division. Scoring should be Open division style. If you should a .357 Sig gun and you make major, you are major. You $ertainly paid for it .

Who hear really wants to have a 2nd production division and keep all the other rules?

If we are going to do this division,do it for the right reasons.

[Jim Norman]

Excellent!

As to folks who only look at the overall at a match ... trying to compare results from shooters in different divisions makes absolutely no sense on any level ... it's not even close to a level playing field. Sorry, but the overall in a match means noting unless you are shooting open ...

As just one example: at this year's US Steel National Championship Sevigny finished 16th overall in the centerfire match shooting in the Production division. However, he won the production division but didn't even come close in the overall. Of the 15 shooters who finished ahead of him, a bunch were what I'll call non name shooters. How is that possible that a bunch of these guys could beat someone who is arguably one of the top shooters in the country? Easy, they were good shooters who were shooting open against a great shooter shooting production. There is no comparison ...

In the "Good ol' days" we scored everyone heads up and paid 'Standard' by pulling your scores out of the order of finish. You knew where you, your skill and your equipment finished that day against everyone else that showed up. Today it is not uncommon to see a Limited shooter win overall at a larger local match, on occasion an L-10 or production shooter does it. How? They shoot accurately and they shoot fast. So, did the guys that shot Open in your example beat Dave? Yes they did. Would he have beat them had he shot open? Who knows? Probably, but nothing is carved in stone here.

[Jaycwebb]

I'm a production shooter. I shoot no other division. The division has enough problems as it is because everyone seems to have their own idea of what they think production should be even tho they might not even shoot production.

I have no problem with this new idea.

However, it shouldn't be a subset of production nor share it's name,because that's dishonest as to why these type of guns are being built in the 1st place. It should be a subset of Open. Open Carry division.

Why Open Carry? People arnt just slapping a optic on their otherwise production legal carry gun and carrying it.

They always have back up irons, not production legal. They often times have NON Production legal things like full stipple jobs, total grip recontouring, mag rip slot cuts, full slide serrations over the whole dam slide, weapon lights/lazers, threaded barrels, mag button relief cuts, duty style mag wells like the Rogers grip adapter and Sentinel magwell, etc etc etc.

If open carry was innacted, ALL of those things should be legal in the division. If anything, the back up irons should be required if a dot is attached. Open Carry Division should allow AIWB placement of holsters unlike production division. Scoring should be Open division style. If you should a .357 Sig gun and you make major, you are major. You $ertainly paid for it .

Who hear really wants to have a 2nd production division and keep all the other rules?

If we are going to do this division,do it for the right reasons.

I really like where the philosophy of this post went.

-Must be slide mounted optic.

-Do whatever you want to the inside of the gun.

-Modify the outside however you want.

-No comps or magwells.

-10 round mags

-Production style holster rules.

I think one of the keys to the success of this format would be allowing people to show up with guns they have; and it's likely these guns (sans red dots) wouldn't otherwise be production legal.