Small showing at USPSA Nationals

[hopalong]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but just 18?

Where are all the "regulars" ?

I myself took the first Nationals in Vegaz off. When I heard of all the richochets and the expence for me to go I decided not to attend any Nationals at this particular range. It is just a matter of time until some one gets hurt pretty bad. The flying bullets are the deal breaker for me.

Anybody else ?

Hopalong

[ChrisC]

I just recently heard about the flying bullet issue just recently. One would think contact or not if the range wasn't safe uspsa would relocate the event. I was hoping for more revo shooters but it appears there are plenty in my class to shoot against. hopefully I will enjoy my first handgun nationals. I am looking forward to the revo only nationals in 2013.

[Carmoney]

Many of the regulars will be there, but I agree it's disappointing to see such a low turn-out in Revo this year.

I think the ricochet thing is an overblown concern, personally. It's never really bothered me, and I've shot Nats every year it's been there.

Expense? Well, if you insist on driving, Las Vegas is a long drive from everywhere except the west coast. If you're willing to fly, there are several discount airlines that offer well-priced flights to Vegas--and many of them have non-stop service, which is nice when you're traveling with guns and gear. Once you're in Vegas, there are a zillion options for rooms and food, ranging from high-end to dirt cheap.

And you don't have to gamble to have a nice trip out there. I'm a poker player, so I enjoy that aspect myself, but lately I've been staying at a nice Best Western Plus motel close to the range. This helps me keep track of whether it's day or night, and gives me a little more "normal" lifestyle when I'm out there for a week.

All in all, I have really enjoyed shooting Nationals at Desert Sportsman's Club over the past few years, and I'm looking forward to being there in a few days!

But with such a small turn-out in Revo, it's obviously time for a change. Strader recognized that, and so there is an entirely new plan for next year, with the match returning to Barry, IL right after the Single Stack Nationals. I think it's a great idea, and I think it has the potential to really invigorate USPSA Revo Nationals, and the division in general.

[Flexmoney]

If you have 2 guys...you have a race!

[hopalong]

Flex as usuall you are right !!!!!

Hop

[Bosshoss]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but just 18?

Hopalong

But with such a small turn-out in Revo, it's obviously time for a change. Strader recognized that, and so there is an entirely new plan for next year, with the match returning to Barry, IL right after the Single Stack Nationals. I think it's a great idea, and I think it has the potential to really invigorate USPSA Revo Nationals, and the division in general.

Man only 18? I wish the turnouts at the local matches was better but I guess us revolver shooters in the midwest don't do to bad. Indiana section match had 10 revolver shooters and the Indiana Prod/SS/Rev. match at the end of this month has 9 revolvers signed up so far(stiil time to sign up for this one). With Sam's match drawing 75+ maybe a move to a more central location is what is needed. I will attend the 2013 Revolver nats even if I don't get a slot. I will hope for a walk on spot or I will become a cheerleader and help paste targets or whatever I can find to do.

If you have 2 guys...you have a race!

It doesn't even need to be 2 revolver shooters. I'm the only revolver shooters at the local clubs about half the time. My goal is to finish in the top half overall at every monthly match, which I do IF I shoot a decent match. That means beating half of the field shooting autos with a old outdated wheelgun

[snertley]

A couple of weeks ago we had "Revo" night at our local wed. night match and we had 9 revo shooters out of a total of 37 people. I do believe that to be the most revo shooters at any MN USPSA match ever.

I plan on shooting Memphis again this year and Revo Nats in IL in the spring. Right now I don't have the extra money to travel to Nats again this year. Good luck to all those going.

[R112mercer]

Wanted to go, got on the wait list to late, couldn't get a slot. I know all about going as a walk-on, but I just don't want to chance flying 3/4 of the way across the country to beg to shoot. Next year...

[cylindrically challenged]

If we could have gotten the BOD to budge on allowing the 8 minor vs. 6 major into the rules we could have probably had a lot more interest. The last ICORE Nationals had 225 revos.

[ChrisC]

Phil said he was pushing for 8 shots, we will see

[seanc]

Phil said he was pushing for 8 shots, we will see

Seriously?

8 shot revolvers are even more rare than 625's, is their a rationale for this?

[ChrisC]

maybe to see if it brings more than a handful of people to an area match. i doubt it will happen, he didn't think the BOD was leaning that way. I feel he he just wondered if it would spark a revolver fire..

[granderojo]

It (8 shooters) would make stage and reload planning a serious advantage for them, given most of the stages I've seen have hit targets in arrays of 8 hits per shooting position, (for lack of a better term). I understand that this type of design works well for Lim 10, Prod & SS. An 8 shot Revo, shooting minor PF would fit in there as well, not so much for 6 shot Revos, major or minor PF. Seems like to me.

[Bubber]

The challenge is to get NEW shooters into shooting revo. The people with 8 shots already, have been IPSC shooters that compete in other divisions already and do not seem to want to change. We allowed 8 shots to compete at a local level with the 8 shot scoring minor only. I loaned an eight shot to a shooter and he and I were the only ones taking the oppurtunity to do so. It was open to shooters for 2 years. There were only two competitors doing so, I only did it once as it was a huge advantage given the stage layout. We are getting a few converts from other division ranks but at the local level it has not shown a lot of growth, Revo is all I shoot, I am sorta stubborn that way. Roger Davis

[alecmc]

I think whatever draws new shooters into revolver division would be great, At all my local uspsa matches I am typically the only revolver shooter out of about 75+ shooters, on small occasion there might be 1 or 2 others, but that's it. Never enough to win ( prize ) a division... you need what, 5 shooters minimum in a division to payout?

That being said, The advantage of 8 shot over 6 shot, even if scored minor - might not still be as equal as it seems. You'll dominate over 6 shot shooters on 8 shot array stages, where an 8 shot can bang out 4 targets and reload on the move, a 6 shot has to do a static reload.

Edited October 16, 2012 by alecmc

[cnote]

I think whatever draws new shooters into revolver division would be great, At all my local uspsa matches I am typically the only revolver shooter out of about 75+ shooters, on small occasion there might be 1 or 2 others, but that's it. Never enough to win ( prize ) a division... you need what, 5 shooters minimum in a division to payout?

That being said, The advantage of 8 shot over 6 shot, even if scored minor - might not still be as equal as it seems. You'll dominate over 6 shot shooters on 8 shot array stages, where an 8 shot can bang out 4 targets and reload on the move, a 6 shot has to do a static reload.

SS 10 minor vs 8 major may have its advantages, but rev 8 minor vs 6 major would be more so

[alecmc]

Agreed.

[buckaroo45]

For various reasons I've come to shoot revolver nearly exclusively. I'm not very competitive against the bottom feeders due to the platform and my advancing age and decreasing abilities. What I HAVE found is the challenge of shooting revolver is a whole 'nuther game. There's more thinking and activity required to successfully complete a stage set up for 8-10 round friendly when you only have 6. There ain't no make up shots available so accuracy is paramount and the equipment HAS to run 100%. Every platform has it's own merit but revos are a breed apart. I've had A and Master shooters be humbled w/ mikes and fumbled reloads when running my full on Carmonized 625PC.

Mebbe that's why there are so few of us. Revolver ain't easy. If it WAS easy everybody would do it.

Dint mean to get off track. Just thinking of possible reasons for relative lack of interest. I sincerely believe it takes a different mindset to appreciate the complexity of competition revolvers.

Edited October 17, 2012 by buckaroo45

[cliffwalsh]

Agreed.

Jerry M is pushing allowing 8 shot minor in USPSA revolver. I think it is a huge mistake and the only way to compete would be to have an 8 shooter. Jerry wants to shoot minor due to health reasons and I know major can wear on you with the high number of rounds he shoots every year. The nationals we just shot was very heavy in 8 round arrays. Anyone in the top 5 would have dominated the match with an 8 shooter. Many stages would have saved 2 or 3 loads and allowed much more flowing plans. I guess next year will tell us a lot about our future.

[Carmoney]

Although I have mixed feelings on this, I think I'm going to have to disagree with my buddy Cliff.

I guess my attitude is that despite everything that we have done to try to spur interest in Revo as a viable stand-alone division, it hasn't been working very well. When we can only muster 17 participants at our national championship, something is wrong.

A few years back, largely as a result of our discussions here on BE, and with the help of a former board member, we got the division equipment rules changed to make Revo a bit more inclusive. It obviously didn't go far enough.

Yes, we all have 625s that might get less use. But we all have 8-shooters also. (And if not, they are readily available for purchase.) As I have opined many times, good stage design would allow the two platforms to compete at much closer parity than most people might think. It is awfully easy to underestimate the penalty that is imposed by minor scoring over the course of a big match.

Cliff is correct that this year's nationals would have been easily dominated by an 8-shot revolver in decent hands, but that is in great part a commentary on the unimaginative stage designs (8-run-8-run-8) that we have seen in Las Vegas the last few years.

I think whatever it takes to shake things up, and still keep Revolver a separate division, is worth trying at this point. So if the board decides to allow 8-shot revolvers in Revo Division, I'm all for it. Seems to me that we have everything to gain, and nothing to lose.

[ChrisC]

My thoughts:

It would be fun to play with an 8 shot limited gun at a uspsa match. But I don't think that would bring any more people to a combined division match then there already is. It takes more work to shoot revolver. it's harder to reload, you actually have to think and shoot. I don't see 8 shots making a numbers impact. plus stage designing that would cater to a handful of people to make it fair for the 8/6 shot thing would be crazy, especially if it only benefits the smallest faction of the shooters. I think the fastest way to gauge interest in the revolver division is just what's going to happen, a stand alone revolver championship. can we fill 140 slots at this match? I think we can.

leave it at 6 and offer incentives for people to shoot revolver.

Is it fair to ask the smallest division to pay the same amount at the larger divisions when we don't get the recognition and our prize tables are typically made up from left overs of the others? maybe offer a discount to the division to see if it can grow would that hurt to try?

[Carmoney]

Is it fair to ask the smallest division to pay the same amount at the larger divisions when we don't get the recognition and our prize tables are typically made up from left overs of the others? maybe offer a discount to the division to see if it can grow would that hurt to try?

In all fairness, we just attended a national championship match where they awarded big plaques to the top 10 (of only 17) revolver shooters.....where they gave a giant trophy to the top 1 (of only 2) female revolver competitors.....and where the prize table contained a gun, a C-More, a nice 3-gun bag, and several certificates worth $100 or more.

I have felt slighted sometimes in the past, and I haven't hesitated to vocalize my feelings on the subject. But I don't think we can legitimately complain about how Revo Division was treated at the 2012 USPSA Nationals.

The fact that only 17 shooters showed up for our National Championship is nobody's fault but our own. I was there. You were there, Chris. And 15 other dedicated wheelgunners were there.

So where the hell was everybody else??

[Carmoney]

plus stage designing that would cater to a handful of people to make it fair for the 8/6 shot thing would be crazy, especially if it only benefits the smallest faction of the shooters.

I am not talking about 6-shot neutral stage design. I am talking about opening the stages up to allow them to be attacked in a more free-style fashion, where multiple options are offered to the competitor.

Did you notice at Nationals how every time you moved up to the next 4- or 8-shot array, the last array was gone from view, and the next array was not yet visible? Where almost every target was visible from only one area?

Better stage design would benefit shooters in all divisions.

[ChrisC]

let me revise my statement:

At matches that your division isn't recognized due to low participation the match should be discounted. I know of two matches this year that I would have attended and would have been the only or the other revolver shooter but was not willing to put forth the cash for travel and match fees just so I could shoot more challenging stages.

They did an outstanding job with the awards at nationals recognizing 2/3 rds of the competitors in our division. I would like to see a combined overall just to see how well the bottom 3rd (i.e. me) of the division did against the other divisions.

I have never really gotten into stage design as I don't have a local club. It would be a challenge to make it fair for 6 major and 8 minor . I wasn't implying 6 shot neutral but it would have to be done in such a way that shooting an 8 shot wouldn't be such an advantage that it couldn't be overcome by 6. What would need to be implemented to insure more intricate stage design to allow even the SS/L10/pro shooters multiple options on how to shoot a stage?

[springy]

But we all have 8-shooters also.

huh?

8 shots would rule the division. In order to be remotely competitive, it would require the purchase of an 8 shot, then make the 8 shot "smooth", and then the moons, and then the brass and loading supplies in order to switch from major 40/45 to 38.

And this is to up the participation at the Nationals?

Vegas is in the farthest remote southeastern corner of the US. Nats participation in 2011 was 21, 2012 was 17.

Sams revo only match, smack in the middle of the country, was 68 in '10, 72 in '11. And his match this year is head to head with the Steel Challenge just down the road and he has 43 signed up 2 weeks before match time.

Major matches need to be centrally located.

Next year with the Nats in Illinois will be a telling tale.

It's too bad it's in Illinois - I purposely plan my routes around Illinois when I travel.

And then there is the fact it's a 1 day match - that should be worth the extra expense and travel to attend?

OK, the rant is off.

I believe in offering a solution after complaining:

Let Sam's match be the Charity Nationals, with all the support a Nationals would get, plus the advertising a major charity event would garner.

USPSA added a 10 round limit to Limited and made Limited-10 Division, obviously the way to go is Revolver Division and Revo-8 Division.

c-y'all in Memphis