Shotgun plate turned 90degrees

[KentG]

I have been shooting 3 gun for awhile and at the big matches if you ask for md to grant reshoot on turned steel good luck. This is not uspsa. Steel must fall to score means what it says. Slow down and hit it. Easy solution hit the target and don't whine when ya miss it. We have some new bases that are much smaller and they can't spin. But I am not gonna change or redo the 100 or so I have already.

This. I have seen a few of these but thats the way the cookie crumbles. Hit it good, knock it down, and if it doesnt take your lumps. It seems to me it happens more with guys using shorter barrels with little or no choke.

I have always seen stage descriptions that specify "steel must fall".

Whining isnt pretty.

[Alaskapopo]

I have been shooting 3 gun for awhile and at the big matches if you ask for md to grant reshoot on turned steel good luck. This is not uspsa. Steel must fall to score means what it says. Slow down and hit it. Easy solution hit the target and don't whine when ya miss it. We have some new bases that are much smaller and they can't spin. But I am not gonna change or redo the 100 or so I have already.

This. I have seen a few of these but thats the way the cookie crumbles. Hit it good, knock it down, and if it doesnt take your lumps. It seems to me it happens more with guys using shorter barrels with little or no choke.

I have always seen stage descriptions that specify "steel must fall".

Whining isnt pretty.

We have had as much of an issue with pistols too. Its a range equipment malfunction really.

Pat

[KentG]

I have been shooting 3 gun for awhile and at the big matches if you ask for md to grant reshoot on turned steel good luck. This is not uspsa. Steel must fall to score means what it says. Slow down and hit it. Easy solution hit the target and don't whine when ya miss it. We have some new bases that are much smaller and they can't spin. But I am not gonna change or redo the 100 or so I have already.

This. I have seen a few of these but thats the way the cookie crumbles. Hit it good, knock it down, and if it doesnt take your lumps. It seems to me it happens more with guys using shorter barrels with little or no choke.

I have always seen stage descriptions that specify "steel must fall".

Whining isnt pretty.

We have had as much of an issue with pistols too. Its a range equipment malfunction really.

Pat

Pistols/Shotguns Apples/Oranges

[Alaskapopo]

I have been shooting 3 gun for awhile and at the big matches if you ask for md to grant reshoot on turned steel good luck. This is not uspsa. Steel must fall to score means what it says. Slow down and hit it. Easy solution hit the target and don't whine when ya miss it. We have some new bases that are much smaller and they can't spin. But I am not gonna change or redo the 100 or so I have already.

This. I have seen a few of these but thats the way the cookie crumbles. Hit it good, knock it down, and if it doesnt take your lumps. It seems to me it happens more with guys using shorter barrels with little or no choke.

I have always seen stage descriptions that specify "steel must fall".

Whining isnt pretty.

We have had as much of an issue with pistols too. Its a range equipment malfunction really.

Pat

Pistols/Shotguns Apples/Oranges

Not sure how many times we shoot the same stage with each gun. Just take out the paper targets. Either way its a range equipment error and under USPSA rules it would be a re shoot. I understand thats a pain so I modified it the way I described with the RO calling it a hit and having the shooter move on. If the target can't be engaged and should have fell its a prop problem not a shooter one. Thats just my take on it. I like giving the benefit to the shooter. Not really into screwing them with what I consider an unfair penalty.

Pat

[KentG]

I have been shooting 3 gun for awhile and at the big matches if you ask for md to grant reshoot on turned steel good luck. This is not uspsa. Steel must fall to score means what it says. Slow down and hit it. Easy solution hit the target and don't whine when ya miss it. We have some new bases that are much smaller and they can't spin. But I am not gonna change or redo the 100 or so I have already.

This. I have seen a few of these but thats the way the cookie crumbles. Hit it good, knock it down, and if it doesnt take your lumps. It seems to me it happens more with guys using shorter barrels with little or no choke.

I have always seen stage descriptions that specify "steel must fall".

Whining isnt pretty.

We have had as much of an issue with pistols too. Its a range equipment malfunction really.

Pat

Pistols/Shotguns Apples/Oranges

Not sure how many times we shoot the same stage with each gun. Just take out the paper targets. Either way its a range equipment error and under USPSA rules it would be a re shoot. I understand thats a pain so I modified it the way I described with the RO calling it a hit and having the shooter move on. If the target can't be engaged and should have fell its a prop problem not a shooter one. Thats just my take on it. I like giving the benefit to the shooter. Not really into screwing them with what I consider an unfair penalty.

Pat

Personaly I dont like uspsa rules for 3 gun. But that is a different discussion. I dont really care if the ruling is if its turned its a hit. So long as I know going into the match and the rule is consistant. If you dont just say steel must fall then you possible get into a situatuion of "well, the steel is turned and I thought it was good" when the steel isnt a full 90 degrees but maybe 80 degrees. Then you get into a position where someone has to decide if its spun far enough or not. Then comes arbitration. Thats why I like to see it fall or not. Pretty clear cut and no room for argument. But if I show up at a match and I know what the rule is to start I just deal with it. I cant say its ever happened to me.

[dmshozer1]

I have been shooting 3 gun for awhile and at the big matches if you ask for md to grant reshoot on turned steel good luck. This is not uspsa. Steel must fall to score means what it says. Slow down and hit it. Easy solution hit the target and don't whine when ya miss it. We have some new bases that are much smaller and they can't spin. But I am not gonna change or redo the 100 or so I have already.

This. I have seen a few of these but thats the way the cookie crumbles. Hit it good, knock it down, and if it doesnt take your lumps. It seems to me it happens more with guys using shorter barrels with little or no choke.

I have always seen stage descriptions that specify "steel must fall".

Whining isnt pretty.

We have had as much of an issue with pistols too. Its a range equipment malfunction really.

Pat

Pistols/Shotguns Apples/Oranges

Not sure how many times we shoot the same stage with each gun. Just take out the paper targets. Either way its a range equipment error and under USPSA rules it would be a re shoot. I understand thats a pain so I modified it the way I described with the RO calling it a hit and having the shooter move on. If the target can't be engaged and should have fell its a prop problem not a shooter one. Thats just my take on it. I like giving the benefit to the shooter. Not really into screwing them with what I consider an unfair penalty.

Pat

Personaly I dont like uspsa rules for 3 gun. But that is a different discussion. I dont really care if the ruling is if its turned its a hit. So long as I know going into the match and the rule is consistant. If you dont just say steel must fall then you possible get into a situatuion of "well, the steel is turned and I thought it was good" when the steel isnt a full 90 degrees but maybe 80 degrees. Then you get into a position where someone has to decide if its spun far enough or not. Then comes arbitration. Thats why I like to see it fall or not. Pretty clear cut and no room for argument. But if I show up at a match and I know what the rule is to start I just deal with it. I cant say its ever happened to me.

Not picking on you Kent but a sideways plate will happen to you at some point even if you have taken the time to

properly choke your gun, center the target but the plate turned sideways because the stand was not designed properly.

You pay a big entry fee, pay to get there, pay for a motel, pay to eat, then are taken out of the match competitively

because plates you have centered up do not fall when hit because the stands were not designed properly.

It bothers me because it is easy to fix this problem. I don't get it that everyone seems to except this when there is a lot at stake.

Most places I shoot it is a 10 sec penalty to leave a plate standing. One or two of them and you are out

of it!!

Shooting at the stand does not always work and why should you have to do that anyway?

That is not fair to any shooter who has paid thrir dues to enter this match

[KentG]

I have been shooting 3 gun for awhile and at the big matches if you ask for md to grant reshoot on turned steel good luck. This is not uspsa. Steel must fall to score means what it says. Slow down and hit it. Easy solution hit the target and don't whine when ya miss it. We have some new bases that are much smaller and they can't spin. But I am not gonna change or redo the 100 or so I have already.

This. I have seen a few of these but thats the way the cookie crumbles. Hit it good, knock it down, and if it doesnt take your lumps. It seems to me it happens more with guys using shorter barrels with little or no choke.

I have always seen stage descriptions that specify "steel must fall".

Whining isnt pretty.

We have had as much of an issue with pistols too. Its a range equipment malfunction really.

Pat

Pistols/Shotguns Apples/Oranges

Not sure how many times we shoot the same stage with each gun. Just take out the paper targets. Either way its a range equipment error and under USPSA rules it would be a re shoot. I understand thats a pain so I modified it the way I described with the RO calling it a hit and having the shooter move on. If the target can't be engaged and should have fell its a prop problem not a shooter one. Thats just my take on it. I like giving the benefit to the shooter. Not really into screwing them with what I consider an unfair penalty.

Pat

Personaly I dont like uspsa rules for 3 gun. But that is a different discussion. I dont really care if the ruling is if its turned its a hit. So long as I know going into the match and the rule is consistant. If you dont just say steel must fall then you possible get into a situatuion of "well, the steel is turned and I thought it was good" when the steel isnt a full 90 degrees but maybe 80 degrees. Then you get into a position where someone has to decide if its spun far enough or not. Then comes arbitration. Thats why I like to see it fall or not. Pretty clear cut and no room for argument. But if I show up at a match and I know what the rule is to start I just deal with it. I cant say its ever happened to me.

Not picking on you Kent but a sideways plate will happen to you at some point even if you have taken the time to

properly choke your gun, center the target but the plate turned sideways because the stand was not designed properly.

You pay a big entry fee, pay to get there, pay for a motel, pay to eat, then are taken out of the match competitively

because plates you have centered up do not fall when hit because the stands were not designed properly.

It bothers me because it is easy to fix this problem. I don't get it that everyone seems to except this when there is a lot at stake.

Most places I shoot it is a 10 sec penalty to leave a plate standing. One or two of them and you are out

of it!!

Shooting at the stand does not always work and why should you have to do that anyway?

That is not fair to any shooter who has paid thrir dues to enter this match

I dont take it as picking. I have been shooting this for a number of years locally and before it was technicly a sport and also shooting plates like that with pistol. What constitutes a "properly designed" piece of knock down steel? OH GOD here comes another new rule 99.99.99.1 revision 14b I know that just a few months ago at our club we got some more brand new MGM knock downs and I see no real difference in the base. Some are bigger in the past and Im really not going to labor the point anymore. Ask most shooters and they will say it sucks to be you if you turn one sideways. Its further proof for me why USPSA rules are overly compicated (see rule 87.987.23r.t13 explaining why rules need more rules) which is where this seems to be heading. Steel falls or not. End of discussion. I have shot a few thousand of these targets in either in practice or match and some are made by the club or bought . I have seen them move and not fall. Shoot again and down it goes. I have never had one true 90 and unable to make fall for me. I have seen it with other shooters but like I said its usually by guys unprepared with too short a barrel/not enough choke. Its like the same guy who cant knock the plates off the star. Do you guys propose under a new rule if you hit the plate on a star but it doesnt fall its OK?

Edited August 3, 2012 by Kent Grewe

[goat68]

Use tighter choke, use 3 or 3 1/2 dram loads with 1 1/8 oz of shot no smaller than #8, don't try and post up and shoot targets that are too far, hit the target and the chances of the 90 degree plate are greatly reduced. If you do get a 90 degree plate, hopfully you can move to a position where the plate is slightly visible again without beaking 180 and knock the sucker over.

[KentG]

Im still waiting for someone to tell us all what a "properly designed" knock down is. I suppose in the name of being compliant with one particular body that wants to run the show most clubs will have to get rid of tons (litteraly) of steel and buy from an "approved" vendor. Same story different angle.

[jdknotts1]

I figured this would turn into, "just hit it square and you won't have to worry about it". I was just curious if there was a technique the pros use to knock these down. I agree dmshozer1, no matter who you are, you will turn a plate.

[KentG]

I figured this would turn into, "just hit it square and you won't have to worry about it". I was just curious if there was a technique the pros use to knock these down. I agree dmshozer1, no matter who you are, you will turn a plate.

It DOES come down to 'just hit it square and you wont have to worry about it" or you take your lumps and go on. Id love to see a pro technique covering this. I would guess that would be "just hit it square and you won't have to worry about it".

[Bryan 45]

I figured this would turn into, "just hit it square and you won't have to worry about it". I was just curious if there was a technique the pros use to knock these down. I agree dmshozer1, no matter who you are, you will turn a plate.

It DOES come down to 'just hit it square and you wont have to worry about it" or you take your lumps and go on. Id love to see a pro technique covering this. I would guess that would be "just hit it square and you won't have to worry about it".

I'm going to agree w/ Kent on this. It's just physics.

[slowsure]

You will turn one 90 degrees at some point. Sucks to be me.

[co-exprs]

I'm surprised this is still an active debate. Choke and shell selection is part of the shotgun game. Otherwise, lets just set up every shotgun target to the lightest target load and a cylinder choke. Calling undropped plates as hits is difficult and time consuming. If the shooter taps the plate with a couple of pellets and only slightly turns the plate, then a judgement must be made on the fly by the competitor and RO. Too much room for arguement. Then people have to argue about it and possibly reshoot the stage.

Recently, I was at a local match where there was a different type of shotgun prop. One competitor decided on his own that he should be able to shoot the prop with a cylinder choke and light target spreaders. I told him to choke up or use something more solid. Even offered him some of my heavier shells. He refused and when the steel target failed to activate, he threw a temper tantrum, unloading his entire Saiga mag on the prop, while hurling colorfull language. He demanded a reshoot, proclaiming a prop failure. Dude was a clown and if he is allowed to continue shooting at that match, he won't be on my squad. If the rules state that the target must fall, spin, activate or whatever, then so be it. Choke appropriately and hit it right. If the prop were incorrectly set, then I could see a valid arguement for a reshoot, or to simply shoot on and award the hit for the sake of time, but if you suffer people trying to clean courses with inappropriate gear then you will be there forever.

It's interesting how on this post, people try to use bits and pieces of USPSA rules to thier benefit. On the USPSA proposed rules post, people argue about how they don't like USPSA multigun rules and how USPSA needs to make thier rules like everyone elses. The rules for a match are the match directors choice and he/she who is doing the work to organize that match... for you, has earned the right to either select an existing rule set or create his/her own. The one thing, we as competitors have a right to is the fair and impartial application of those rules. Once you get wishy washy on the application of the rules, then anyone can present a valid arguement to thier own benefit.

[Bryan 45]

You will turn one 90 degrees at some point. Sucks to be me.

Alan- no doubt! I've probably turned them before, but I'm too dumb to quit shooting until I run out of ammo.

[bigbrowndog]

If people would just use the angle iron targets that we use for HPSC and RM3G has started to use, there will never be an issue with a turned plate, its a SG target it doesn't need to be AR500.

trapr

[ericm]

....but....but....

WHAT IF IT TURNS 90 DEGREES???!!!

WHAT DO YOU DO THEN?????? WHAT DO YOU DO THEN???

ericm

[assaulter]

....but....but....

WHAT IF IT TURNS 90 DEGREES???!!!

WHAT DO YOU DO THEN?????? WHAT DO YOU DO THEN???

ericm

MOVE 90 degrees! duh

[Dan Sierpina]

....but....but....

WHAT IF IT TURNS 90 DEGREES???!!!

WHAT DO YOU DO THEN?????? WHAT DO YOU DO THEN???

ericm

Shoot it till it falls! Didn't the stage description say "All Steel Must Fall"?

Geeze Eric, I thought you were the "Creator"

[MarkCO]

....but....but....

WHAT IF IT TURNS 90 DEGREES???!!!

WHAT DO YOU DO THEN?????? WHAT DO YOU DO THEN???

ericm

Put a 90 degree shell in the shotty and shoot it again

[DocMedic]

....but....but....

WHAT IF IT TURNS 90 DEGREES???!!!

WHAT DO YOU DO THEN?????? WHAT DO YOU DO THEN???

ericm

I believe the answer is Xrail.

[bigbrowndog]

Eric, you've already shown that a horny toad, can elude and perplex you!!! don't try and tackle another difficult situation.

Trapr

[ericm]

Was perplexing at first, eluded for a miniscule time, ultimately succumbed and was rendered complacent and contented by the traditional rubbing of the stomach, released back into his native environment to continue foraging for ants.

If you guys need to look up a few of these words, I'll wait.

ericm

[co-exprs]

I can't lie. I'm feeling a bit perplexed myself.

Edited August 14, 2012 by co-exprs

[DarthMuffin]

....but....but....

WHAT IF IT TURNS 90 DEGREES???!!!

WHAT DO YOU DO THEN?????? WHAT DO YOU DO THEN???

ericm

Swear at it and move on. Take your penalty and try to do better next time. It's probably not worth saving the time penalty, especially when you figure in reload time and goofing up your carefully crafted stage execution plan, to shoot at it a few more times, which isn't even guaranteed to work.