SuperGrandmasters

[dpeters8445]

After shooting the last couple of tournements and seeing my match percentage, I was thinking that I might be overclassified. Then when I took a closer look at the huge gap between the top couple of guys and the rest of the field, I thought, maybe I'm not overclassified, maybe USPSA either needs a SuperGrandmaster class or needs to recalibrate the percentages for all of the classes. I see this more in Open then Limited.

Has it always been this way historically?, or is this just a matter of say a dozen shooters in the country, recently evolving into a new breed of Grandmasters that are around 10 percent better then the rest of the Grandmasters.

Any thoughts?

Doug

[TriggerT]

GM is the top 5% of the classifiers. Then you have the GM's who shoot at that level ALL the time. Those are the ones you are talking about. They shoot all of the time at the level that some of the GM's shoot at on their best days. Must be nice to be at the top of the food chain.

Also, remember that many of those very top end shooters you are talking about shoot for a living. They don't have to go in to the normal job come Monday morning, but they DO have to shoot at that level, unless they want to go out and find another job.

[Matthew_Mink]

I think it's that way in all the divisions, for the most part.

[davidwiz]

Looking at the Top 20 Lists on the USPSA page http://www.uspsa.org/cgi-bin/members/db_top20.cgi there are quite a few GMs in the various divisions that haven't shot a classifer in years, yet their overal classification is still good enought to be among the top 20 GMs. For example, according to the list and member table, BE is listed as the 13th ranked GM in Limited, yet the last time he shot a Limited classifier was in November 2001. He's not the only one.

[SmittyFL]

There are threads on here about this subject. Being a M or GM or D for that matter on paper is different that being able to actually compete at that level.

Our classifers don't really represent what we encounter in a match. It would be to difficult to have mostly large field course classifers.

Plus, like trigger said, these guys do it on almost every stage throughout the match. Not just six stages over the course of a year or more, which is all that is required to be classed GM.

[dpeters8445]

I think the classification system works almost very well. However, I think that there is a couple of handfulls of people that are substantially better then the rest of the GM's and they are throwing off the curve of the classification system at the major matches. The classification that we earn from shooting classifiers is supose to represent how we stack up nationally. It looks to me that at the big tournements that the very top GM's are raising the bar very high causing many people to end up finishing well below there national classification.

[Loves2Shoot]

I think that there is a couple of handfulls of people that are substantially better then the rest of the GM's and they are throwing off the curve of the classification system at the major matches.

I disagree. I think it comes down to consistancy, not being faster or more accurate. In matches you don't throw out a stage and in the classification system they do. In a big match the one who wins is the one with the least (or no) mistakes.

[shred]

The above points are very valid-- consistancy day-in-day-out, stage-in-stage-out is what's key. To get the G or M card, you don't need to be the least bit consistent.

However, and this is a big however, since the classifier HHF's have never been updated with the average-of-top-10 scores like they're supposed to be, many more people qualify for GM and M (and to a certain extent A) cards than "shoot to 95% or 85% of the best 10 scores" requires.

In truth, it is "easier" to M or GM in any division but Open. The HHFs are just biased that way. Of course if you know the score, you can pick the 4 or 5 "easy" Open HHF's and still grandbag.

[Detlef]

what? The HHFs have not been updated? *Man Down* surely has, as have multiple others. It's a slow process, but they *are* updated...

[Ron Ankeny]

Getting a card with an A or an M on it is pretty easy. Making GM is tough as nails. Staying at that level is another matter. Performing at that level in a real match is even tougher.

For the most part, folks seem to finish at matches pretty much in line with their classification. However, there are guys who shoot field courses pretty well who don't shoot quite fast enough on the "stand and deliver" classifiers to move up where they belong. Those guys will be called sandbaggers no matter what the circumstances when in reality the problem is the mis-match between the classification system and what is tested at a real match.

Then there are the guys who shoot the no movement classifier stuff like a bat out of Hades and they end up being classed higher than they can perform when it counts. Those guys will be labeled grandbaggers even though the real problem is the mis-match between what classifiers test and the skill set required on match day.

For instance, I have shot many of the Box A speed shoot classifiers across all divisions well enough to make Master, but on a 32 round field course I make stupid decisions, D class mistakes, and generally suck canal water. If the majority of courses are field courses I'll finish with the A shooters, given a boat load of speed shoots, I'll finish at or near the top.

Frankly I don't think adjusting percentages, adding a new class, etc., will change the order of finish at a match. We will always have first place, last place, and everything in the middle.

[Kingman]

Maybe a pro division or something.

People that are paid to shoot considered somewhat differently than the rest of the normal people.

[Alan Meek]

IIRC That was what GM class was suppoosed to be, the shooters that were competing for match wins

[Chriss Grube]

Leave it alone if it bothers you that much get out and practice the things you suck at. Everybody seems to go to the range and practice what they are good at not what they need to improve. There are fewer and fewer stand and shoot COF and more field courses. Look at the guys that are kicking butt. They are natural athletes that move fast. Let's face it most of us could spend a few more hours in the gym and on the range instead of sitting on our ass in front of a computer. I came home from the A8 and my butt was dragging. It's real easy to figure if you want to win drop a few pounds, work on upper body and endurance and maybe actually start practicing. You wouldn't go play B-ball without working on conditioning and expect to win this game aint any different.

[h4444]

Standard exercises versus what "Joe course designer" is going to throw at you is two totally different things.

The top guys figure out and execute their plans in attacking tough stages better. Anyone that shot the Buckeye Blast for instance would have seen that on in what Tilley and Starder did on stage 4 with all the steel and such.

Keep in mind while us guys in some of the lower classes are struggling with executing our plans on complex and high point value field courses. The top guys are burning those stages down. When they win the big stages by huge margins against the field of guys still learning the game,,,,,,it really shows in the final standings as the scores are weighted to take into count the value of those stages.

Getting a 65% score on a 60 point speed shoot versus a 55% score on a 160 point field course is a huge difference In the end, it boils down to match points,,,win big stages or perform well on the big stages and you'll improve quickly. The weighting in the scoring system makes a big difference and is why consistency is so valuable.

H4444

[Kingman]

I suck at everything, guess I really need work.

[Nik Habicht]

The top guys figure out and execute their plans in attacking tough stages better. Anyone that shot the Buckeye Blast for instance would have seen that on in what Tilley and Starder did on stage 4 with all the steel and such.

So, for curiosity's sake, and since I really blew Stage 4, how did Strader and Tilley attack that stage?

[Ron Ankeny]

It's real easy to figure if you want to win drop a few pounds, work on upper body and endurance and maybe actually start practicing.

Hmmm, in the last year I have lost 60 pounds, I dry fire daily, and live fire three times a week. In the last month I have shot over 3,000 rounds through my single stack and shot 8 or 9 local matches. So why ain't I a GM shooter whooping major butt?

[Chriss Grube]

Lack of talent? The same reason most of us will never beat Max or Todd or play in the NBA. Practice will only get you so far, natural ability might just have a lot to do with it. I can go shoot foul shots all day long and I'll bet I don't get drafted by the Lakers.

[Kingman]

Like I said.

All is very good when you start with the theory. I suck and work up from that point. You can do nothing but get better. That being said, I think everyone is capable of the high levels of performance. Its a subconcious thing, you have to want it. Then be willing to do what it takes.

I am quitting my job, starting a business in the industry for what. Not to get rich, but to make GM in 2 years. Lofty goal yes, but I will do it. Then I won't suck quite so bad.

[mpolans]

Lack of talent? The same reason most of us will never beat Max or Todd or play in the NBA. Practice will only get you so far, natural ability might just have a lot to do with it. I can go shoot foul shots all day long and I'll bet I don't get drafted by the Lakers.

I dunno...Shaq left, and I bet you can beat his free throw percentage!

[dpeters8445]

What I'm talking about is look at the open final results for almost all of the majors this year. There are some huge gaps in between the top couple of shooters and the rest of the field. The ,SuperGrandmasters," if you will, are beating some very good GM's by in some cases over 10 percent.

[Kingman]

At some of the matches the masters for instance they use pro versus sportsman. It works out well, the top guys that get paid to shoot are there, but I think they throw Master class shooter there as well.

[Chriss Grube]

OK, What will a SGM class do? They are still going to kick the crap out of everyone else. Since our scoring system is based off of what the top guy on a stage shoots the percentages are going to be the same. What do you do drop the percentages needed to move up in class? Then you have masters that can't shoot above a current B class score. Hell we already have enough of them. The only change I see is a chance for the current lower level GM to win a plague or a trip to the prize table. The only thing I see that might reflect the true ability is to do away with the current class system. You get one shot at the classifiers not 15. Only way you can reshoot is if the gun dies on you. Count all the classifiers not just the good ones. Look up some of the M and GM scores. 100, 90, 34, 10%. If you want to move up go for broke all the time. You either look like a superstar or crash and burn. Shoot enough classifiers and sooner or later you get enough good runs to move up. The crash and burn scores get tossed. Then you go to the big dance and get your ass handed to you by a C class shooter. If you can't step up to the line and shoot your class percentage on demand day in and day out are you really an A or M or GM? I think ego gets in the way for most people. Yep be nice to say I'm an M or GM but if you go get punked at every big match by guys 2 or 3 classes lower what have you really proven?

[TRNinTX]

Yep be nice to say I'm an M or GM but if you go get punked at every big match by guys 2 or 3 classes lower what have you really proven?

Well said Chriss. As I attend more of the major matches (shooting some but being "Range Dad" for BJ more often) it becomes perfectly clear that you have to perform on demand. The major matches present more challenges than the stand and shoot classifiers. Make no mistake, you have to be able to shoot well, but you also have to be able to break stages down, remember where that target stuck behind a vision barrier is at the end of the stage and be able to see the most effecient way to move through a course of fire.

The top dogs don't need to shoot classifiers, they already know what their abilities are.

[Kingman]

Well my actual line would kinda be like have a pro group, and then the non pro. You could have a match winner for the pro group with your normal top20 or so shooters that get paid to shoot. Then you could have a match winner for the rest of the normal folk that shoot.

Chriss you do have a good point about the percentages though. Maybe do something along the lines of the a sgm that is the 97% and up, winning more than one area match, nationals etc.

Don't know really but I have been noticing some of the differences between GM's and really high pro gm's.

I am a C class shooter so me getting punked is pretty easy right now. Thats kinda why I just shoot classifiers at an easy to maintain speed. I don't hose em, but I don't go so slow grandma can beet me.