SuperGrandmasters

[Ron Ankeny]

Kingman:

I made it deep into A class (maybe even bottom of Master) with a 1.5 second draw. As long as you shoot way above your "acknowledged ability level" (class) you will have folks who call you a sandbagger. Especially if you appear to delight in having a mis-match between your match performance and your classification. Ya might as well get used to it. Such is life.

The classification system only serves to group shooters based on their best performance (assuming no sandbaggers) on fairly simple courses of fire. It also serves as a huge postal match and gives folks something to shoot for (no pun intended). The obvioius answer has always been to shoot santioned level and higher matches (or locals for that matter) from scratch on a head's up basis. Forget about what is in your wallet, how do you shoot on game day comapred to the rest of the field? Unfortunately, most folks just aren't willing to do that.

[Kingman]

Yes, I know. Some of those very guys that are not happy with me won't go to large matches. OH well.

I do like shooting well. But the classifiers I don't think are a good indicator to some extent. For some reason I just can't operate as well on the simple 6 shot deals as I can on a big field course. I am probably one of the few that just can't get 100% concentration on those deals. The best one of mine so far is about 61% or so.

Heading to Tristate, midatlantic, and VAMD sectional this year. We shall see how I handle things then.

[Loves2Shoot]

Yes, I know. Some of those very guys that are not happy with me won't go to large matches. OH well.

I do like shooting well. But the classifiers I don't think are a good indicator to some extent. For some reason I just can't operate as well on the simple 6 shot deals as I can on a big field course. I am probably one of the few that just can't get 100% concentration on those deals. The best one of mine so far is about 61% or so.

Heading to Tristate, midatlantic, and VAMD sectional this year. We shall see how I handle things then.

Some people have excuses for everything. If you can kill the field courses, there is no reason you can't stand and shoot unless you don't want to. To some people winning their class means a lot so they don't put effort into classifiers. Winning a class by a large margin usually just means you are in the wrong class, but some people think it's cool, that's why they get laughed at so much.

[TMC]

For some reason I just can't operate as well on the simple 6 shot deals as I can on a big field course. 

I agree, classifiers are fast, short, low round cout drills concentrating on a fast draw gun manipulation. My draws are in the 1.50+ range which doesn't translate into a 85+% score.

All of the big and small matches I attend have large field courses where a speedy draw is not a critical as good course plan and execution. In local club matches I have on accasion won stages beating M's, and GM's who just murder me on the classifiers. Its an odd system when you win a stage or two and shoot 50% on the classifier.

Maybe I'm just getting by on base talent because I do not practice, I just go and shoot matches. If I do go to the range its for checking zero and gun function at the local public range were holsters or fast multiple shots are forbidden.

[Loves2Shoot]

For some reason I just can't operate as well on the simple 6 shot deals as I can on a big field course. 

I agree, classifiers are fast, short, low round cout drills concentrating on a fast draw gun manipulation. My draws are in the 1.50+ range which doesn't translate into a 85+% score.

All of the big and small matches I attend have large field courses where a speedy draw is not a critical as good course plan and execution. In local club matches I have on accasion won stages beating M's, and GM's who just murder me on the classifiers. Its an odd system when you win a stage or two and shoot 50% on the classifier.

Maybe I'm just getting by on base talent because I do not practice, I just go and shoot matches. If I do go to the range its for checking zero and gun function at the local public range were holsters or fast multiple shots are forbidden.

It's getting deep in here. The draw and reload are the things that are EASY to practice. I think some people are just afraid to move up in class so they could have real competition. I just don't get it, bragging about winning when you finish way out of your class.

[TMC]

It's getting deep in here. The draw and reload are the things that are EASY to practice. I think some people are just afraid to move up in class so they could have real competition. I just don't get it.

Sure the draw and reload are easy to practice but some of us don't. I don't stand in my house drawing my gun or doing reloads. I like the sport but it doesn't consume every spare moment. I use my guns at the range and that's it, at home I do other things because I have lots of other interests and commitments.

I know this is getting off topic but having people complain about what amounts to a lack of total commitment, as the reason for a low classification and fear of competition is a bit much.

[TommyGun]

Just going out and beating a few M's and GM's at a local level doesn't mean you are ready to compete with the Big Dogs. If you have the Top competitors at your local club, and you are beating them then you are much better than you are giving yourself credit for.

On the other hand, if those M's and GM's you are constantly beating can't compete with the top guys at the Major matches then you are just beating their cards that they probably can't keep up with anyway. Mute point................

And if you can't shoot the little classifiers, what about the newer field courses that require more rounds and some movement. I know you have probably seen some of those. If that is your game then you should be spanking those, and earning that next rank.

Untill then play the game. Get to those Bigger matches that the "Super GM's" will be at and see how you stack up against them. Also see how the local M and GM's stack up. If your top local shooter can only muster 75% of Max at a major, and you can shoot 80% of him at the local match, then it all boils down to you really being 60% of the top shooters out there. Even if you rack up 90-95% of your local guy, that still only puts you at 67-71% of the The Best out there.

Don't get caught up in beating a few local guys that have the card unless they are out there proving themselves on the field. That will give you a flse sense of security and lead you to alot of negative emotions later down the road.

Hope to see you at Mid-Atlantic, and Tri-State.

TGun

[dpeters8445]

Untill then play the game. Get to those Bigger matches that the "Super GM's" will be at and see how you stack up against them. Also see how the local M and GM's stack up. If your top local shooter can only muster 75% of Max at a major, and you can shoot 80% of him at the local match, then it all boils down to you really being 60% of the top shooters out there. Even if you rack up 90-95% of your local guy, that still only puts you at 67-71% of the The Best out there.

TGun

Alright, TGun gets it,

This is what inspired me to start this thread. Although the local GM's and some of the GM's that I know are placing very well at the majors, the percentage gap is what suprized me. That's why I asked myself the Question, Do we need a classification higher then GM? If no is the answer, and I'm sure that people woundn't want there classification letters recalibrated, then I guess many people will end up finishing under there classification at majors whenever one of the Big Dogs shows up. I personally don't have a problem with this, I am just trying to make a point that I noticed. Looking at the major match results from this year, you can clearly see that in most cases. Max and Chris are beating the rest of the field by a classification letter or better. This is the gap that I'm talking about. However, since most of the majors have been on the East coast so far this year, Maybe when we get into the majors on the west coast, we will have another group of GM's to compare Max and Chris to and maybe they will fill in some of the void in the overall match results.

Doug

[Sam]

I believe the biggest difference between match results and classifier results is that they don't hold your bad classifier stages against you.

Look at the classifer scores of people who really let it all hang out trying to get that M card. There will be scores anywhere from 100% down to 45%. Sedro doesn't use the very low or very high scores to calculate your average. But, in a match, you go all out and shoot 45% and you get to keep it.

The people who shoot comfortably within their classification know their own ability, and they aren't attempting to go beyond it. It doesn't matter if they are shooting a classifier or a major match.

People getting wild and lucky on classifers is the reason for the disparity in performance.

Luck comes through for you on occasion. But, skill serves you every time.

[Ron Ankeny]

Ah, just deleted my ramblings. I agree with you Sam, to a point. Here's where we part company. When a C class shooter starts whooping up on the majority of A class shooters ( and Masters) in matches something is wrong. I generally assume (ass/u/me) guys who are C class but routinely perform on match day at A class levels are in C class for one of three reasons. The classification system hasn't caught up with them because they haven't had the opportunity to shoot classifiers. They tank the classifiers by throwing hopers that don't hit the mark. Or they are comfortable in C class and don't want to move up.

[TommyGun]

Sam,

I really wish my 8%er recently would have counted, then I too would still be in A class.

Now I've made M just like I really should be. I've been hanging around that level for a while, kinda glad to move up. I got tired of being called a sandbagger back when I was B class.

Keep shooting.......

TGun

[Kingman]

Here is my story. I had not fired a gun for about 10 years. I shot my first match June 4, 2004. I have been shooting almost every weekend since then, when I am off. First classifier there 49% and I finished at that level. Local match at Fredericksburg VA.

I don't have time to practice draws etc because of my line of work I literally am not home for a week at a time. I work at a group home for people that are developmentally disabled, so I can't very well have guns there either.

I have fairly consistent 1.5 draws, but have fairly quick transitions and splits. I do well on the field courses with movement I think at least. The stand and shoots I eat it agains masters with a sub 1 draw because their is almost no way to catch up with that slow of draw.

Bang and Clang I shot 3.34 overall but had a 1.7 draw onto the left popper. So that means that my draw was almost the whole time of the person that shot it at 100%.

[TommyGun]

Kingman,

You are very local to me. I don't see any of those 80% local match finishes. Maybe you mean stage finishes?

Anyway I'd be very happy to help you make a few improvements if you are interested. I can probably get that draw down by .2-.4 just in a few minutes.

TGun

[Kingman]

Tommygun - pm'd you

Always need help

http://members.libcom.com/actionpistol/july.html

5 King, Robert A16577 U Open Major N N N N 389.2180 80.59%

[shred]

I have a pretty slow draw and made it well into M. I don't think I've ever drawn under 1.0 in a match setting. Of course I'm only a paper 92%-- no way I can shoot that against the big boys across 18 stages at a major-- I haven't got the consistency... Anyway,

The trick to doing well on classifiers is to A: Pick the right classifiers. B: Get ALL the points. Dropping 6 points on a 60 point stage is 10% of the points. You now need to shoot 12% faster to make up for that. Sooner or later you fall off a cliff because you can't get any more speed.

[TommyGun]

The trick to doing well on classifiers is to A: Pick the right classifiers. B: Get ALL the points. Dropping 6 points on a 60 point stage is 10% of the points. You now need to shoot 12% faster to make up for that. Sooner or later you fall off a cliff because you can't get any more speed.

Shred,

Isn't that just the point we're talking about. Grandbagging as they call it doesn't get you anywhere close to performing well against the top guys. Major match performance does.

I think the trick is to mentally prepare youself for one stage at a time at the big matches. If you blow one stage go to the next and shoot it as good as you can. Alot of people think that if you blow one, you have to BURN DOWN the next one. When in reality you just give up more points on it because you CRASH and BURN , because you can't shoot it as fast as you think you can.

As for draw speed, I've gotten mine down to .86 at 7yrds, with a .97 average. I still have about a 1-1.10 in major match performance. I do agree that draw speed is not very relevant to overall match finish, but think about this. 10 satges 10 draws average of 1 sec., same 10 stages with a 1.5 average. Now you are 5 seconds off the pace. If the match has a average HF or 9 then you're 45 match points down before you start. Thats 5% before you start pulling the trigger............

Just a thought,

TGun

[shred]

Isn't that just the point we're talking about. Grandbagging as they call it doesn't get you anywhere close to performing well against the top guys. Major match performance does.

As for draw speed, I've gotten mine down to .86 at 7yrds, with a .97 average. I still have about a 1-1.10 in major match performance. I do agree that draw speed is not very relevant to overall match finish, but think about this. 10 satges 10 draws average of 1 sec., same 10 stages with a 1.5 average. Now you are 5 seconds off the pace. If the match has a average HF or 9 then you're 45 match points down before you start. Thats 5% before you start pulling the trigger............

My point was aimed at the "poor-me, I can't draw under a second, I'll never be a master" crowd mentality. It's a scam. Don't fall for it.

The truth is the big boys rarely draw under 1 in a match either. Duane posted some stats about the Steel Challenge super squad (and in the SC, the draw is everything-- sometimes half of your run-time is the draw and there are 34 of them in the match) and how most of them never drew under 1 even there.

My problem right now is I want to run 100% on every stage. At local matches that means I can win pretty frequently. At big matches, 100% is pushing too hard. One of these days I'll get the balance right.

[gmshtr]

Here is my take on this debate.

If you go to a major match where there are more than 5 top competitors, then there's a good chance that you're not going to shoot at your potential as it relates to your classification percentage.

Here's why. All of your true "top" shooters are just about equal in ability. Some are more natural, where some have to work their butts off, but they're still competitive with each other. At a big match, the winner is going to be the "SGM" who has the best/most consistant match. If one of those 5-10 top guys have a great match, then there's a good chance that there will be a number of top GM's that won't even manage 95%.....ie. 1999 Limited Nationals.

The classification system works, as long as the shooters make it work. How many times do you see someone take a classifier differently than they take the rest of the match? I see it in EVERY match. My advice to newer shooters is to shoot it like you would the rest of the match...and be careful! It's a hard road ahead if you shoot them over and over, or get into a rush to move up. I made the same mistake and had to spend a year in GM bottomfeederville. Such an ugly place.

Phil

[BSeevers]

I made the same mistake and had to spend a year in GM bottomfeederville.  Such an ugly place.

Phil

Isn't that over by 1 Alpha/1Mike-burg?

[Loves2Shoot]

I do agree that draw speed is not very relevant to overall match finish, but think about this. 10 satges 10 draws average of 1 sec., same 10 stages with a 1.5 average. Now you are 5 seconds off the pace. If the match has a average HF or 9 then you're 45 match points down before you start. Thats 5% before you start pulling the trigger............

Just a thought,

TGun

How many draw from holster with a target to shoot after the draw in a major match are there? Not many, I think at last years nats there were maybe 4 or 5 in the whole match. Over a 10-15 second stage worth 120 points average you drop 6 points taking half a second more. That is still 95% so you are more like down 12 points for the match if you have a .5 extra on your draw which still leaves you at 98% so more like 2% down with a 1.5 draw, which is pretty common for the average C-B class shooter.

I have a decent draw and it gains me so little.

[TommyGun]

I do agree that draw speed is not very relevant to overall match finish

Isn't that what I just said............Just depends on the match layout.

TGun

[MTrout40]

This is what inspired me to start this thread. Although the local GM's and some of the GM's that I know are placing very well at the majors, the percentage gap is what suprized me.

Doug

Doug,

Maybe the local GM's your talking about just need to practice more!!

PS. This is a hit on myself and not intended to flame anyone else.

[TMC]

I also agree that a sub 1 sec draw won't get you much in a major match but from a 1.00 to a 1.60 on a 6 sec classifier is 10% and that's allot.

[TommyGun]

Matt,

Looks like you did OK at Area8, nothing to hang your head about

Those guys are just hard to catch, but I'm gaining on them. I guess a few misses for me didn't help last weekend either

See you at Area 3 ???

TGun

[Sterling White]

The classification system works - it doesn't need to be rebuilt, changed, or trashed !

Here are some of the ways that I've used the system.... $.02 worth!

- its an indicator tool that shows how I rank or should stack up against others...proof is in the pudding after a major match.

- its a track record of past performance so I can plot my trend over time

- gives me an indication how I'm progressing in the skills mix (draw, accuracy, movement, speed...). I can look at classifiers that I've shot numerous times and get an idea

- can be used as a prediction tool when I plan my match schedule

I believe that a person should be able to back their classification up at a major match.....otherwise its just a piece of paper or you had a bad day. I try to shoot my game everytime I roll into a match - if you bring yours and kik my butt with a B card...cool. Either I did something wrong or your good but I'm not going to loose any sleep because I'm in it for the long haul and will look forward to meeting again.

The true test of a persons performance are at the Nationals (aka when the fat lady sings!) or as a Phil mentioned "when 5 top competitors show".

I encourage everyone to shoot their best because it enhances my performance! See you at area 3??