Will the Shake-Up at the Top Amount to Anything?

[Skydiver]

Or maybe Glock is gonna start building limited and open guns in the factory.....

ROFL! Just imagining an Open Glock with a thumbrest... Will it once again be one size fits none...

Edited April 26, 2012 by Skydiver

[beltjones]

KC is going to have a tougher time at Steel Challenge if he's trying to win Open with a Glock.

[mhop]

I don't see Production becoming the predominant division at the highest levels of competition. It may become predominant by shear numbers with all the new shooters coming into the sport.

You don't believe it's already at the highest levels of competition, especially now that KC and JJ will be competing in it?

Not at all what I said. It does not take either of those guys to make Production a big deal. Bob Vogel does it every day.

When I think of something being predominant I think of it as what everybody shoots, especially at the higher levels. I don't know what would make a world class shooter want to give up an STI or SV to go shoot a caracal or a Glock. Well actually I probably do. $$$$$$

I think there are guys shooting at the top who are getting bored and want the challenge of shooting Production I guess.

When Limited and Open shooters become as rare as revolver shooters then you can call Production the predominant division of USPSA.

I agree. They are more than likely moving for money and/or challenge.

It's 100% about the money.

[bulm540]

After driving a F1 car, why would you drive a Yugo?

Handgun manufactures want production representation. Average Joe does not care about open guns, but a gun he can walk in to a store and buy. I look forward to JJ, Max and KC getting into IDPA. That will cause a shake up.

Kimi went to drove a Citroen hatchback

Montoya went to drive a family car

Barrichello went to drive a really ugly abomination. LOL

I agree it is about money but they still need to have a desire to compete in other divisions. I think it would be awesome to have those guys in IDPA.

Actually Kimi is back in F1. He drives for lotus reanult.

Them Indy cars are butt ugly.

Edited April 26, 2012 by bulm540

[kevin c]

What does it mean for the sport? More major gun sponsors? Production becoming the dominant division (over time)? Other thoughts?

It means HHFs for production may be going up!

Damn, and I was finally getting close...

[beltjones]

I think some people are going about this the right way and others aren't, and this community is small enough to have a pretty short memory.

KC was sort of with HK, and now he's with Glock. Clearly he's a marketable guy and he knows that all the guns in Production are so equal that it makes sense to just take the one that comes with a good paycheck. Good for him. I mean, does anyone really think the Nascar driver in the Miller car really chose it because he did a blind taste test of all the crap beers in the country and Miller was the winner? No. Miller came to the meeting with a check, and the team signed on the dotted line, and good for them.

However, others expect us to believe that the very best Production gun - after extensive testing - is a facsimile of a Glock 19 that isn't even on the Production list. That kind of message can't work out well in the long run for anyone.

[pjb45]

We have less than 20K members in USPSA, the fact of Glock, SA, HK, FN, etc. are willing to be a full time sponsor of a shooter(s) is awesome.

If Max, TT, KC, TGO, DS, etc. enhance their sales then it is a win-win for everyone.

Remember those guys have to put food on the table for their families, pay mortgages, etc. If they can do it by shooting, then my hat is off to them.

[Carlos]

. . .Will these guys make their presence felt immediately, or will it take some time to make the transition?

What does it mean for the sport? More major gun sponsors? Production becoming the dominant division (over time)? Other thoughts?

Experience suggests they will make an immediate impact.

While our president, Phil Strader, is best known for his accomplishments in Limited/Standard Division, he has won SSP IDPA using a really beat-up, bone stock Glock 17 (not a 34).

And the GTO won Production with an XD (2006? 2009?).

If it is any measure, recall also that some competitive GMs even tried out for U.S. Olympic "rapid fire pistol" - which is shot strong-hand only using very different open sight guns (Jarett was one of them; don't recall the others). They matched the best folks we had in the US at the time & could have gone on to represent us.

Point is, fast guys (and gals) are simply fast & they understand what it takes to win in USPSA. I predict an immediate impact.

This development is also VERY good for the sport & for USPSA's relationship with sponsors.

[atbarr]

We have less than 20K members in USPSA, the fact of Glock, SA, HK, FN, etc. are willing to be a full time sponsor of a shooter(s) is awesome.

Glock, IMHO supports the 'Shooting Sports' more than any other manufacture. USPSA is a small but important part of their sales. Ruger is #1 IMO, getting youngsters (future USPSA) in the Shooting Sports.

[HoMiE]

KC is going to have a tougher time at Steel Challenge if he's trying to win Open with a Glock.

Why? An open glock has won it before, Sevigny did it with an SJC.

I love shooting Open and I love shooting Production. I think it's a real challenge to try and beat open and limited shooters with production equipment. Anything to bring more shooters into the sport is a good thing. I didn't shoot for a long time because the perception was you needed a "race gun" to shoot USPSA. You can't blame manufactures trying to find good shooters to use their products or shooters trying to make a living, and of course it has to do with $$$.

Those of us that compete in practical shooting are a drop in the bucket compared to the average gun owner. I have seen tons of guns come into gunsmith shops to get customized and the aftermarket "race" goodies added to guns that will probably see less than 1k rounds go through them. More SIGs and Berettas have probably been sold because they get seen on the tv show 24 or because the salesmen says the M-9, 92FS is the weapon of choice of the US Army.

I just love the fact that the sport is growing and more shooters are coming out and firearm manufactures are putting money into and tv shows like Top Shot are giving competitive shooting visibility. The only thing it will do is a a few more guys will be added to the list of who can win a match on any given day.

[Seth]

Spec miata is a popular class for racing too. Doesnt make a miata any less dorky to drive!

[Bunchies95]

Spec miata is a popular class for racing too. Doesnt make a miata any less dorky to drive!

Yea but they usually put on an awsome show as the cars a cheap(ish) to repair so the drivers are willing to race closer.

[Seth]

I didn't say it wasnt fun. But it's still a miata.

There are plenty of guys like me that want the nicest, fastest gun we can afford. Production holds zero interest for me.

[motosapiens]

I think there are probably more than a few people who are interested in competition as way to improve their skills with guns they actually own and use for some genuine defensive purpose (concealed carry, duty, home defense, whatever), and the success of IDPA and the uspsa production and single-stack divisions show that not everyone wants to spend $2500+ for limited or open gun that has no real use outside of competition.

I suspect gun mfrs sell a heckuva lot more production/singlestack/idpa type guns than they do guns with giant magwells, optics, comps, etc..., so it makes sense to me that companies would want top shooters competing with those guns.

Pro MX did away with 'works' bikes many years ago, and one of the results is that production bikes are a lot more competitive now (similar to superbikes on the road). If production guns get better, that doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.

[DoubleL]

I am new to competitive shooting and reek of inexperience. I can add the FNG perspective and stir the pot a little...

I priced a sweet limited gun. I threw up a little in my mouth.

Not beginner friendly at all. I am sure the gun is worth every penny. I respect the decision to use one. It's just not real nice for a beginner.

More famous and sponsored shooters on production means more choices for guns and gear at that level in the long run. I could walk in to my LGS, plop down 700$ and walk out with the gun that so and so used to win whatever. Try that on limited or open or even SS.

I am of the belief that the elite of this sport could compete, and fiercely, with a HiPoint stuffed in their waistband while reloading from a back pocket. Certainly I couldn't.

More exposure at an entry level means more people joining. If that's what you want, then elite guys coming to PD is exactly what you want.

Stir that pot

[Seth]

It's easy. Speed is costs. How fast do you want to go?

Roflmao

[motosapiens]

It's easy. Speed is costs. How fast do you want to go?

Roflmao

i think for most shooters that aren't already masters, practicing is an easier way to get faster than spending $$.

Edited April 26, 2012 by motosapiens

[CHA-LEE]

The thing that confuses me about a big marketing push to put Production Division pistols in top end shooters hands is that our sport does not promote the “Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday” marketing strategy.

A very good example of this would be what didn’t happen after Ben Stoeger won the 2011 USPSA Production Nationals using a Beretta. Did USPSA Production shooters jump on the “Beretta is the best” bandwagon and dump their XD’s, M&P’s, CZ’s, Glocks and whatever else just because Ben won the nationals with one? I would venture to say that the answer is a resounding NO. To further this point no one can argue that Ben has been cleaning house in the Production Division at just about every major match he attends with his trusty Beretta. So the highly effective performance of a Beretta in competition has a lengthy track record making the Nationals win not a “Fluke”. I don’t pick Ben as an example to state that he is a bad promoter of what he uses. Its just a good example of someone using something completely different than the “Normal” but it does not trigger a cult following just because Ben can win with it.

In reality USPSA shooters tend to use whatever gun is most popular at local matches. This is mainly driven by people knowing that if a large group of local shooters are using the same type of gun there will be a larger pool of resources to leverage when it comes to optimizing, maintaining and repairing that type of gun. Most new shooters like to be told what they need verses figuring it out on their own.

From the general gun purchasing public perspective I don’t think that any amount of USPSA match sponsoring, promotion or “Joe Blow used our pistol to Win XYZ match” propaganda makes any difference to the customers walking into their local gun store to buy a gun. These customers will usually purchase a pistol by how it looks, fits their hand, or by the recommendations/opinions given by the sales staff.

If I was a Marketing Manager for a gun company I would approach this from the same vantage point as Rudy Project has. Instead of sponsoring/employing a few Top Level GM’s to win the major matches, it would make more sense to sponsor a large team of “Local Talent” shooters that mainly compete at the local match level. This strategy would be a lot more effective in getting products to penetrate into the local shooting scene. The vast majority of competition shooters spending decisions are made by local experience and representation. The challenge with this strategy is keeping a fine balance between sponsoring enough local shooters to get a local presence but not saturate the local shooting scene with too many sponsored shooters.

[JThompson]

I spoke with Max and he will be shooting Single Stack at all the Area matches this year.

JT

[jar]

A very good example of this would be what didn’t happen after Ben Stoeger won the 2011 USPSA Production Nationals using a Beretta. Did USPSA Production shooters jump on the “Beretta is the best” bandwagon and dump their XD’s, M&P’s, CZ’s, Glocks and whatever else just because Ben won the nationals with one? I would venture to say that the answer is a resounding NO. To further this point no one can argue that Ben has been cleaning house in the Production Division at just about every major match he attends with his trusty Beretta. So the highly effective performance of a Beretta in competition has a lengthy track record making the Nationals win not a “Fluke”. I don’t pick Ben as an example to state that he is a bad promoter of what he uses. Its just a good example of someone using something completely different than the “Normal” but it does not trigger a cult following just because Ben can win with it.

Part of the problem is that Beretta doesn't sell the Elite series anymore, so even if you wanted to buy Ben's gun, you can't.

I think the obvious case study is Dave Sevigny. I haven't been shooting that long (2007), and I went straight in to competition, so I'm a bad judge. My impression is that Dave did a lot to popularize the Glock in competition shooting and that that spilled out in to the general public. Does anyone have a better feel for that?

[motosapiens]

The thing that confuses me about a big marketing push to put Production Division pistols in top end shooters hands is that our sport does not promote the “Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday” marketing strategy.

A very good example of this would be what didn’t happen after Ben Stoeger won the 2011 USPSA Production Nationals using a Beretta. Did USPSA Production shooters jump on the “Beretta is the best” bandwagon and dump their XD’s, M&P’s, CZ’s, Glocks and whatever else just because Ben won the nationals with one? I would venture to say that the answer is a resounding NO.

I believe that if 4 out of the top 5 shooters drove beretta, then you would see a more noticeable change. I I would also be willing to guess that there are some shooters that might have been influenced to consider or test a beretta, or maybe even dust off their old gun, based on Ben proving that the gun is not an insurmountable handicap. Part of the key of course is whether people feel like they can easily get the same or similar characteristics out of their own beretta.

[dskinsler83]

I think it is what it is...I think it's funny it's drawn this much if a response. Let these guys shoot where they wanna who cares why they are doing it. If we all got paid for it we would do what ever too. Also not all of them shoot for a living. Most are marketing reps per say. Some teach classes and some train agencies. Ben chose not to become a sponsored shooter and still shoots what works for him. I'm glad to see a change up it keeps our sport thriving. Kinda like if there was one team in a certian sport that won all the time you'd get tired of watching the same crap happen every day every game. Change is good change keeps it fresh! I think it's great that hopefully one will be able to shoot the exact gun these new production shooters are gonna shoot. And it won't cost as much as a limited gun. Besides all that it will help market production class to everyone...it's the fastest growing class in USPSA with out a doubt and this will only bring in more new shooters to help uspsa and shooting sports in general thrive for a long time I hope.

[Strick]

A very good example of this would be what didn’t happen after Ben Stoeger won the 2011 USPSA Production Nationals using a Beretta. Did USPSA Production shooters jump on the “Beretta is the best” bandwagon and dump their XD’s, M&P’s, CZ’s, Glocks and whatever else just because Ben won the nationals with one? I would venture to say that the answer is a resounding NO. To further this point no one can argue that Ben has been cleaning house in the Production Division at just about every major match he attends with his trusty Beretta. So the highly effective performance of a Beretta in competition has a lengthy track record making the Nationals win not a “Fluke”. I don’t pick Ben as an example to state that he is a bad promoter of what he uses. Its just a good example of someone using something completely different than the “Normal” but it does not trigger a cult following just because Ben can win with it.

Part of the problem is that Beretta doesn't sell the Elite series anymore, so even if you wanted to buy Ben's gun, you can't.

Yeah, using Ben is a bad example. He does not shoot for Beretta and they don't use him for marketing. Beyond that, they would not market a gun they don't even make.

Also how many times has it been said on this very forum......"if sevigny can win with it...." or "leatham doesn't have a problem with the XDm...."

I don't think you see the win on sunday/sell monday concept in the other divisions because most don't know who is building the gun only what parts are used.

[CHA-LEE]

A very good example of this would be what didn’t happen after Ben Stoeger won the 2011 USPSA Production Nationals using a Beretta. Did USPSA Production shooters jump on the “Beretta is the best” bandwagon and dump their XD’s, M&P’s, CZ’s, Glocks and whatever else just because Ben won the nationals with one? I would venture to say that the answer is a resounding NO. To further this point no one can argue that Ben has been cleaning house in the Production Division at just about every major match he attends with his trusty Beretta. So the highly effective performance of a Beretta in competition has a lengthy track record making the Nationals win not a “Fluke”. I don’t pick Ben as an example to state that he is a bad promoter of what he uses. Its just a good example of someone using something completely different than the “Normal” but it does not trigger a cult following just because Ben can win with it.

Part of the problem is that Beretta doesn't sell the Elite series anymore, so even if you wanted to buy Ben's gun, you can't.

I think the obvious case study is Dave Sevigny. I haven't been shooting that long (2007), and I went straight in to competition, so I'm a bad judge. My impression is that Dave did a lot to popularize the Glock in competition shooting and that that spilled out in to the general public. Does anyone have a better feel for that?

The thing that Glock does differently than any other pistol manufacture is its GSSF match. I would venture to guess that their GSSF match, which is totally geared towards non-competition shooters getting a chance to shoot their Glock in a simply competition environment, does a whole lot more in penetrating the local shooting market from a marketing perspective than having a few top level shooters win every single major USPSA match.

[CHA-LEE]

A very good example of this would be what didn’t happen after Ben Stoeger won the 2011 USPSA Production Nationals using a Beretta. Did USPSA Production shooters jump on the “Beretta is the best” bandwagon and dump their XD’s, M&P’s, CZ’s, Glocks and whatever else just because Ben won the nationals with one? I would venture to say that the answer is a resounding NO. To further this point no one can argue that Ben has been cleaning house in the Production Division at just about every major match he attends with his trusty Beretta. So the highly effective performance of a Beretta in competition has a lengthy track record making the Nationals win not a “Fluke”. I don’t pick Ben as an example to state that he is a bad promoter of what he uses. Its just a good example of someone using something completely different than the “Normal” but it does not trigger a cult following just because Ben can win with it.

Part of the problem is that Beretta doesn't sell the Elite series anymore, so even if you wanted to buy Ben's gun, you can't.

Yeah, using Ben is a bad example. He does not shoot for Beretta and they don't use him for marketing. Beyond that, they would not market a gun they don't even make.

Also how many times has it been said on this very forum......"if sevigny can win with it...." or "leatham doesn't have a problem with the XDm...."

I don't think you see the win on sunday/sell monday concept in the other divisions because most don't know who is building the gun only what parts are used.

I used Ben for the example because he is NOT sponsored by Beretta. His use of a Beretta is a perfect example of a shooter being able to pick whatever gun he wants to succeed with and then proving that what he uses is able to get the job done. You would think that his choice to use that brand of pistol would hold a lot more weight than another shooter being paid to promote a brand they may or may not feel is the best.

Edited April 26, 2012 by CHA-LEE