Making Weight in SS

[ktm300]

The question is how do you calibrate a scale and , more importantly, what to do if the scale being used cannot weigh the same object twice and get the same number.

Perfect!

That is exactly the question that needs to be answered in the rulebook.

[sperman]

The only way to get that in motion is to run it up the chain of command. We can sit here and complain about it until we are blue in the face but until somebody talks to their AD nothing is going to happen.

Like Corey said, you should get in touch with Linda and let her know about your concerns.

[ktm300]

The only way to get that in motion is to run it up the chain of command. We can sit here and complain about it until we are blue in the face but until somebody talks to their AD nothing is going to happen.

Like Corey said, you should get in touch with Linda and let her know about your concerns.

I sent an email to NORI to ask for a clarification. I have not heard back from them. I will send one to Linda as well.

[Flexmoney]

We can sit here and complain about it until we are blue in the face but until somebody talks to their AD nothing is going to happen.

And,...

Go to your AD with a plan.

I'd suggest writing up the procedure and sharing it here... Let the collective have a look and work it out.

[Corey]

If you have a scale and you put an object on it and it reads 42.20 oz, removing the object and placing it back on should give you the same number. Exactly. If not, it should not be used.

Not necessarily. Depends on the technology of the scale. If you put the weight (check weight, powder, bullet, gun, w/e) down on a different spot on the load cell, the pressure internally can be different and produce a different result. Some scales are obviously going to be worse at this than others. Granted it wont be much, but that's the reason I like to have cushion on PF and with regard to gun weight.

[Skydiver]

If you have a scale and you put an object on it and it reads 42.20 oz, removing the object and placing it back on should give you the same number. Exactly. If not, it should not be used.

Not necessarily. Depends on the technology of the scale. If you put the weight (check weight, powder, bullet, gun, w/e) down on a different spot on the load cell, the pressure internally can be different and produce a different result. Some scales are obviously going to be worse at this than others. Granted it wont be much, but that's the reason I like to have cushion on PF and with regard to gun weight.

Part of the weigh in procedure should be something like: "Place gun on scale with muzzle down range and grip to the right. Repeat procedure with the grip to the left. The lower of the two values measured will be accepted as the weight for the gun. The shooter may request that the match official use a calibration check weight on the scale prior to each measurement attempt."

[steel1212]

We can sit here and complain about it until we are blue in the face but until somebody talks to their AD nothing is going to happen.

And,...

Go to your AD with a plan.

I'd suggest writing up the procedure and sharing it here... Let the collective have a look and work it out.

but..but...but... I don't mind the procedure I make weight :roflol:

Ok Ok Give me a week to recoupe from the battle and I'll get on it boss.

[SteveU]

If you have a scale and you put an object on it and it reads 42.20 oz, removing the object and placing it back on should give you the same number. Exactly. If not, it should not be used.

Not necessarily. Depends on the technology of the scale. If you put the weight (check weight, powder, bullet, gun, w/e) down on a different spot on the load cell, the pressure internally can be different and produce a different result. Some scales are obviously going to be worse at this than others. Granted it wont be much, but that's the reason I like to have cushion on PF and with regard to gun weight.

Part of the weigh in procedure should be something like: "Place gun on scale with muzzle down range and grip to the right. Repeat procedure with the grip to the left. The lower of the two values measured will be accepted as the weight for the gun. The shooter may request that the match official use a calibration check weight on the scale prior to each measurement attempt."

Good start. But why weigh twice if it makes it already? That will make the chrono take more than twice as long. How about a repeat weight only if the first is over, kind of like chrono is (don't need to shoot more than 3 if you make PF).

If you don't make it twice, calibrate scale with a 43 oz. standard weight, and try a 3rd time. 3 strikes and you are open.

And the scale can be calibrated with a 43 oz. standard weight at the beginning of each squad.

Although personally I like Corey's idea of a balance scale with an arrow that points to "Good" or "Open". That's less practical but way more fun.

[diehli]

Since there's a max weight, why do you need a scale that displays the weight at all? Set up some sort of balance scale with 43 oz on one side, et voila.

[ChrisMcCracken]

Since there's a max weight, why do you need a scale that displays the weight at all? Set up some sort of balance scale with 43 oz on one side, et voila.

Technically you'd need two equal 43oz weights to calibrate the arms and make sure its balanced.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Erucolindon

[Skydiver]

Since there's a max weight, why do you need a scale that displays the weight at all? Set up some sort of balance scale with 43 oz on one side, et voila.

There is some merit to the simplicity of that idea.

With that setup, the match now has to have two 43 oz weights. One to be used for weighing, and the other for calibration to make sure that the fulcrum of the scale is at the exact center. Additionally the calibration steps should include swapping the weights just to make sure that one reference weight is not lighter than the other one.

Edit after: Chris was faster by being more efficient with his typing.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Skydiver

[z40acp]

The reason you need a scale is for the Production guns. I am sure they would want an accurate scale as well.

[ktm300]

Option #1

Have a standard calibration weight. 40 ounces would be a good choice as most of the production and SS guns are in that ball park.

Specify the scale has to be shielded from the wind

Specify the USPSA box has to fit on the scale without hanging over. This should mean the guns will fit on the scale without hanging over.

Specify the platform the scale is on must be level. (A tolerance would be good here, I just don't know how to specify how level something is, or a way to measure it. We have someone come in, set up and calibrate our scales.)

Calibrate the scale with the 40 ounce weight.

Put the calibration weight back on the scale and make sure it is correct. If you can't make the scale read the same weight twice toss the scale and all guns make weight.

Put the gun on the scale, if it makes weight, go to the next test. If not take the gun out and place it back on the scale. If the gun is the same welcome to open. If the weight is not the same toss the scale and all guns make it. I am assuming the scale only reads to .1 of an ounce. If it reads to the .01 of an ounce it can vary +-.05.

Notice zero tolerance on the repeatability of the measurement. .1 of an ounce is close to 3 grams or 50 grains. If we can't get closer than that we should not use the scale.

Option #2 just don't weigh the guns and get rid of the weight rules for SS and PROD. "It's not the bow, but the Indian"

[Skydiver]

Kudos to Matt. I think he has the beginnings of a very good weighing procedure in his Option #1.

[Argh, got sidetracked looking at rounding rules and tabbed back in and had a mouse button AD.]

I think the only thing missing in option #1 is stipulating the rounding rules for scales that are precise enough to go to 0.01 of an ounce or more. Should 0.05 always round up? Or always round down? Or follow the common round to even convention?

For example a production gun is listed to weigh 39.3 oz. The first attempt on the scale reports 41.35. The second attempt on the scale reports 41.31. Good or Open?

Similarly, another production gun is listed to weigh 39.4 oz. The attempts on the scale are 41.45 and 41.41. Good or Open?

Edited April 6, 2012 by Skydiver

[ktm300]

Thanks but I think option #2 would be much simpler.

[Skydiver]

Thanks but I think option #2 would be much simpler.

He! He! He! Since aftermarket basepads are legal for production, I would not be surprised by a proliferation of brass basepads. Possibly a run on Seattle slugs and black paint as well. Or a lot of DIY Sevigny Speedways but whose epoxy recipe is 1 part resin, 1 part hardener, and 1 part lead shot or tungsten filings.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Skydiver

[pvhendrix]

IF it is "not the bow but the indian". Why is everyone worried about the weight of the bow? There is a weight for SS and Production guns. Just make sure your equipment makes the standard. All of my SS guns make weight and all of my Production guns make weight. I just do not understand the concerns. Just as has been stated. The crono stands, if it goes down, those that didn't make PF prior to it going down are where they are. It does not change for anyone that has been through the process.

The other option is to present your concerns to your SC, AD and BOD. Petition for change with the governing body not here where it carries no weight.

[Skydiver]

The other option is to present your concerns to your SC, AD and BOD. Petition for change with the governing body not here where it carries no weight.

+1 for the advice. +10 for the pun.

[ktm300]

IF it is "not the bow but the indian". Why is everyone worried about the weight of the bow? There is a weight for SS and Production guns. Just make sure your equipment makes the standard. All of my SS guns make weight and all of my Production guns make weight. I just do not understand the concerns. Just as has been stated. The crono stands, if it goes down, those that didn't make PF prior to it going down are where they are. It does not change for anyone that has been through the process.

The other option is to present your concerns to your SC, AD and BOD. Petition for change with the governing body not here where it carries no weight.

I could care less about weight except for the fact that I ran into a scale that was off enough to screw up my day. It was poorly set up and I spent a match fee, and travel, etc to shoot a match with an 8 round open gun with no comp and no dot. My gun makes weight and I can prove it on a top notch scale calibrated by a company that charges a lot of money to do it. When you get bumped into open because you don't make weight with a gun you know makes weight then you start to care.

Edited April 6, 2012 by ktm300

[ktm300]

For example a production gun is listed to weigh 39.3 oz. The first attempt on the scale reports 41.35. The second attempt on the scale reports 41.31. Good or Open?

Similarly, another production gun is listed to weigh 39.4 oz. The attempts on the scale are 41.45 and 41.41. Good or Open?

Most of the scales you see would say 41.3 twice and welcome to open.

If the scale goes to the 1/100 of an ounce both of your examples would show the weight to be within .05 so again welcome to open.

[Skydiver]

For example a production gun is listed to weigh 39.3 oz. The first attempt on the scale reports 41.35. The second attempt on the scale reports 41.31. Good or Open?

Similarly, another production gun is listed to weigh 39.4 oz. The attempts on the scale are 41.45 and 41.41. Good or Open?

Most of the scales you see would say 41.3 twice and welcome to open.

If the scale goes to the 1/100 of an ounce both of your examples would show the weight to be within .05 so again welcome to open.

39.3 + 2 = 41.3. This should be good according to D4.18 as I understand the rule.

On the other hand, for single stack, if the gun weighs in at 43.05 and then again at 43.01. I'd say the gun should be good assuming that 43.05 and 43.01 get rounded down to 43.0.

[warpspeed]

If the scale being used is not properly calibrated then the results of any use of that scale should not be used. This is all basic stuff guys.

I'm really surprised that anyone running a match where a scale is needed to verify the weight of a pistol would let something like this slide. It would seem they would pay a little more attention to detail.

[Braxton1]

I agree with weight restrictions, but also agree that something must be done to ensure consistency. Somebody showing up with a postal scale that they bought at the local Mart-Mart and then trying to bump me to Open is a no-go in my book.

I like the calibration weight idea. Make it a reasonable weight (I'm thinking 35.0 ounces; midway between the lightest Production guns and the weight limit of a Single-Stack.). Just because a scale is accurate with the 30 gram check weight that you stole from your reloading scale doesn't mean that it's gonna be accurate at 40 times that weight.....

Like Corey said, we should have some leeway built into our guns to allow for small variables like wind, altitude, and location of the range on top of an iron ore deposit. I am not showing up at your match with a G-34 that weights 27.9 ounces. Mine weighs 27.2 on my "traceable to the National Institute of Standards" scale, but I've had it weighed at matches at up to 27.8 oz. Same gun, same mags, different scales.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Braxton1

[pskys2]

Just curious what is the weight differences of Standard Wood (not slimlines) and G10?

Had Pachmayr on my Caspian Race Ready w/std guide rod and it came in at about 42 oz. but my scale isn't very accurate.

Put on a pair of old chopped up wood grips and the weight fell to 39 oz. much more comfortable within the weight restriction.

But I want a decent pair to put on, wood or G10?

[Koppi]

Having won Open at the SS Nationals last year due to a weight problem. With a gun I know was 41.5, weighed at USP office the week before. I agree we need a better system than the food scale which was purchased at the local Wallyworld. It may be the same for everyone but, that does not mean it is correct! or fair. I'm up for a recall vote of the rule--anyone else?

Well

I live and learned now the same Gun weighs 2oz's less as does the back-up.