45 keyholing

[TCBDoubleTap]

I started loading 45ACP with Clays, and may have started with too light a load.

I like the accuracy, but it appears that many of the bullets were tumbling.

Here's what I started with:

3.7 gr of Clays

Hornady 230 gr FMJ-RN

CCI 300 primers

OAL 1.250

Crimp 0.470

These were shot with a full size Kimber with a 5" barrel.

I've not seen this problem with any other loads with this same gun.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

Tom

Edited April 3, 2012 by TCBDoubleTap

[TCBDoubleTap]

Oops - forgot the picture...

[lynn jones]

you either have undersized bullets or you're over crimping

lynn

[Youngeyes]

I've experienced keyhole problems from too light a load or crimping issues. I believe 4GR is upper limit with clays for 45ACP, so check your crimp first. Book calls for 1.2 OAL so you might try reducing it slightly which will boost the velocity. Heavy bullets need some push to be stable.I don't use clays so I don't have first hand experience. What load did you use before starting clays and what velocities were you getting?

[leemoe83]

If your resize die doesn't resize enough and you run it through a Lee factory crimp die it can resize/reshape the bullet as well as the case if it is set to low (basically drastic over crimp). Had this issue with plated bullets, imagine it could happen with jacketed bullets to.

[Jaxshooter]

I use 4.0 gr Clays with a MG 230 gr FMJ at 1.245 OAL and a very light crimp. The crimp is just enough to get the bell out of the case. No problems with load.

[TCBDoubleTap]

I had been using 5.2 gr of WW 231 at 1.265 OAL with the same 0.470 crimp and had no issues.

I don't have a cron so I don't know what velocity I'm getting.

Tom

[buckaroo45]

I run 4.3 Clays, 230 Berry's, 1.250 oal, .469-.471 crimp in a 4" 625. PF @ Fla State USPSA was 172.

[reptoid]

Hodgdon Data for 230 FMJ shows 4.0gr. max barely making major at about 739 FPS and shows min @ 3.7grs. in the low 600's. Probably need to bump it up a bit

[TCBDoubleTap]

Thanks for the suggestions - I'll try a few different combinations of load and OAL - and recheck the crimp.

Tom

[Youngeyes]

I love 231 for 45acp. I shoot it out of a Colt XSE and get great groups. I use 5.5 Gr of powder, 230GR Hornady FMJ and an OAL of 1.25. Crimp die is set to only take out the belling. Chronos about 820fps. Clays is a much faster powder with slower velocity. I've used 700X which is similar and didn't like it. YMMV

PS get a chrono, you'll love it.

[Doc Hunter]

I would loose the Clays for something a little slower - 231 has been a go to.

[noylj]

Personal opinions:

1) Clays has shown some remarkable pressure spikes and I don't like it. That, along with less then 0.5gn between a light starting load and the max load means that, even if I do get good results with 200gn L-SWC, it would be the last powder I would look to for 230gn bullets of any type

2) Check your bullet diameter. As much as I love MG, PD, and Zero jacketed bullets, I have had some from Zero that are 0.0005-0.001" smaller than expected. This, combined with the very shallow grooves of far too many .45 ACP barrels could mean the bullet is not "locking" into the rifling. Too bad you can't just go to a 12BHN cast lead bullet of 0.452+ inches.

3) If you have any AA2, 231/HP38, Bullseye, Solo 1000, N310, or Nitro 100 (in that preference order), try it.

4) You have had good results with other bullet/powder combinations?

[TCBDoubleTap]

Personal opinions:

1) Clays has shown some remarkable pressure spikes and I don't like it. That, along with less then 0.5gn between a light starting load and the max load means that, even if I do get good results with 200gn L-SWC, it would be the last powder I would look to for 230gn bullets of any type

2) Check your bullet diameter. As much as I love MG, PD, and Zero jacketed bullets, I have had some from Zero that are 0.0005-0.001" smaller than expected. This, combined with the very shallow grooves of far too many .45 ACP barrels could mean the bullet is not "locking" into the rifling. Too bad you can't just go to a 12BHN cast lead bullet of 0.452+ inches.

3) If you have any AA2, 231/HP38, Bullseye, Solo 1000, N310, or Nitro 100 (in that preference order), try it.

4) You have had good results with other bullet/powder combinations?

2) I checked a random sample of bullets - 0.451" - exactly as advertised.

3) I have 231, N330 and N340.

4) I have had good luck with 231 - 5.3 gr at 1.265 OAL with 0.470 crimp. I read some good comments here about using Clays for 45ACP, so I thought I'd give it a try...

I loaded some rounds yesterday with 4.0 gr of Clays at 1.245 OAL and backed off the crimp to 0.471. I'll try a few of those next time I get to the range and see what kind of results I get. Worst case, I'll go back to 231 - which has worked well in all my guns.

Thanks again for the great suggestions!

Tom

[JON]

FWIW

Maybe your barrel is shot out. I had that problem once and went through all of the above and never checked the barrel.

Jon

[superdude]

i can't tell from that target that your bullets are tumbling. if thin paper targets are just hanging without lying directly against a firm backing, bullets produce tears like that. I'd suggest trying it again, and shooting at a piece of cardboard. something like an IPSC target. make sure it is held firmly in place. then you can see how the bullet is oriented as it passes through the target.

for what it's worth, all the holes seem to be torn in the same direction. i'm not entirely sure what that means. either the bullets are all tumbling the same or it's evidence that it's just a loose hanging target.

[whistlepig]

Try superdudes suggestion first. I agree with him. If you like the accuracy I'm betting you aren't key holing

[johniac7078]

i can't tell from that target that your bullets are tumbling. if thin paper targets are just hanging without lying directly against a firm backing, bullets produce tears like that. I'd suggest trying it again, and shooting at a piece of cardboard. something like an IPSC target. make sure it is held firmly in place. then you can see how the bullet is oriented as it passes through the target.

for what it's worth, all the holes seem to be torn in the same direction. i'm not entirely sure what that means. either the bullets are all tumbling the same or it's evidence that it's just a loose hanging target.

I was thinking the same thing. For me, I get a very similar picture with a hanging paper target. With a cardboard backer, no tumbling. Also as you point out, tumbling rounds should give random tears. These dont seem to be random, but are on the bottom where the paper would be loose.

[pskys2]

If they are tumbling you will usually see a profile of the nose of the bullet, those pix look like a tear.

Revo shooters swear by Clays, always liked it in a 1911 also.

You can go down to .468 for Taper Crimping without problems with Jacketed Bullets, you'll start seeing bulged cases if you go too tight.

With Plated Bullets you can cause problems with too tight of a crimp that results in cutting thru the plating.

[njl]

Have you pulled a bullet to check for "ring around the bullet" from overcrimping? Have you chrono'd this load? I've done 3.7gr Clays with 230gr FMJ, and other than being a little slow, had no problems with it. You could also shorten the OAL a few hundreths.

[TCBDoubleTap]

If they are tumbling you will usually see a profile of the nose of the bullet, those pix look like a tear.

I agree - these are the paper tearing, not a hole made in the profile of the bullet. If I push the torn paper back up there's a clean bullet hole. Just not sure what's causing the tear.

I did some experimenting with different loads. At 3.7 and 3.8 grains I still see this same tearing, but at 4.0 grains I get clean holes in the paper.

I'm not too worried about it since these are just plinking rounds - just think it's odd...

Thanks for everyone's comments and suggestions.

Tom

[njl]

It's probably just a matter of velocity. At lower velocity, instead of cutting through the paper, it's tearing it. Switch to corrugated cardboard for targets and see what you get for holes. At 3.7gr and your OAL, depending on the gun, you're probably only getting 650-690fps.

[pikedrop]

Personal opinions:

1) Clays has shown some remarkable pressure spikes and I don't like it. That, along with less then 0.5gn between a light starting load and the max load means that, even if I do get good results with 200gn L-SWC, it would be the last powder I would look to for 230gn bullets of any type

2) Check your bullet diameter. As much as I love MG, PD, and Zero jacketed bullets, I have had some from Zero that are 0.0005-0.001" smaller than expected. This, combined with the very shallow grooves of far too many .45 ACP barrels could mean the bullet is not "locking" into the rifling. Too bad you can't just go to a 12BHN cast lead bullet of 0.452+ inches.

3) If you have any AA2, 231/HP38, Bullseye, Solo 1000, N310, or Nitro 100 (in that preference order), try it.

4) You have had good results with other bullet/powder combinations?

2) I checked a random sample of bullets - 0.451" - exactly as advertised.

3) I have 231, N330 and N340.

4) I have had good luck with 231 - 5.3 gr at 1.265 OAL with 0.470 crimp. I read some good comments here about using Clays for 45ACP, so I thought I'd give it a try...

I loaded some rounds yesterday with 4.0 gr of Clays at 1.245 OAL and backed off the crimp to 0.471. I'll try a few of those next time I get to the range and see what kind of results I get. Worst case, I'll go back to 231 - which has worked well in all my guns.

Thanks again for the great suggestions!

Tom

It is my opinion that you need to take about three steps back and stop. Let's start by finding out what the groove diameter is for this particular barrel. Slug it and measure the largest diameter that you can attain - that is the groove diameter. Now, in order for cast bullets to fit properly, they MUST be at least 0.001" larger than the groove diameter. So add 0.001" to the groove diameter and that is the sized diameter that your cast bullets MUST be in order to fit properly. Key-holing is a result of cast bullets being too small for the intended bore, or reducing their diameter even further by running the cartridges through a factory crimp die.

[Postal Bob]

In that picture, it does not look like keyholing. Large hanging paper targets move when hit, and cause the paper to tear like that. I shoot 200 LSWC, and they make worse looking tears than that. But when shooting large cardboard targets, they cut really large, clean holes. Shoot some other types if targets before you go changing your loads.

[superdude]

In that picture, it does not look like keyholing. Large hanging paper targets move when hit, and cause the paper to tear like that. I shoot 200 LSWC, and they make worse looking tears than that. But when shooting large cardboard targets, they cut really large, clean holes. Shoot some other types if targets before you go changing your loads.

already stated, examined, and understood. read post #16, #18 and #21.

Edited May 9, 2012 by superdude