New 3 gun scoring

[Bear1142]

With all the discussions concerning the new multi-gun rules and the recent 3 gun nationals, I thought it prudent to offer up for discussion a revision to the 3 gun scoring system. While I spoke up about this new scoring system at the group discussion after the match, I can not take credit for it's design. If the originator wants to jump in and fess up, that's his decision.

After some lengthy discussion, the EASIEST way to fix the current scoring problem is this:

Score all rifles as major (.223, 7.62x39, .308, etc..)

Keep the major/minor power factors.

All minor scoring rifles require two rounds per target.

All major scoring rifles require ONE round per target that scores twice the

value. 1 A= 2 A's on scorecard, 1C= 2 C's on scorecard, etc..

BUT, you also get double the penalties. 1 miss= 2 misses, 1 no-shoot= 2 no

shoots, etc..

This system fixes the problem of shooting major pistol with minor rifle on a stage, no more A zone only targets. It requires no changes in the scoring program or scoring sheets. It brings .308 & major rifle back into a serious competitive status compared to the .223. It supports the current 308 trend in the industry (Armalite, Bushmaster, DSARMs, Springfield, etc..) and industry support is always a good thing, and it's the easiest and quickest way to integrate the change without a major overhaul or adopting a time based scoring system.

While I think its an excellent idea, there are some potential issues. The biggest concern I have it the new 6.8 SPC round. If the AWB goes away, then 28 round magazines will be readily available. You'll have a 28 round rifle that scores major with the recoil of about a 243. Add a good compesator and it will be even softer and flatter. The round will obsolete the .223 & .308 in competition and while I'm all for new designs and technology, I don't want to see everything made obsolete by one cartridge. Likewise I don't want the new 6.8 eliminated because it holds less rounds and recoils harder than the .223 for minor rifle. I don't have an answer for this one yet. The other issue are the middle grounds rounds that also make major, like the 260 remington. Several competitors have used a 260 to shoot major rifle. I think the answer is to move the major rifle power factor up from 320 to 350. The 308s will easily make the PF, but the middle range calibers will really have to step up to make the PF. No more cheatin' 120gr. 260 loads for major.

I realize there are other scoring system around and some have real merit. This is simply an attempt to correct the problem with the least amount of disruption or change. I think the other scoring systems should be seriously considered, but I also think this is the quickest and simplest all around fix, for right now.

Comments?

Erik

[Bill Sahlberg]

The Superstition 3 Gun, JP 3 Gun, and DPMS all have very successful matches running "time plus" with scoring made easy with 2 hits anywhere or one "A" hit. Add 5 seconds per miss, procedural, or no shoot. Quite simple and no varition of major / minor. No MSS whacky scoring system from USPSA which was created for "pistols only". 3 Gun is much different than Hi-Power, Skeet/Trap, and IPSC, we just need to forget about the "box" some are stuck into and make the scoring easy like these already successful 3 Gun Matches. No need to keep reinventing the wheel.......

[lynn jones]

erik,

oops. didn't retain the thought.

the scoring shouldn't be a problem for a good computer programer couldn't fix.

lynn

Edited July 2, 2004 by lynn jones

[Bear1142]

Bill,

How do you account for disappearing targets with the time based system?

Lynn,

I know is shouldn't be a problem, but it would have to be corrected and redistributed to all the clubs. As I stated before, this seemed to be the easiest and quickest fix with the smallest amount of change. I realize fixing the scoring system is always an option, I was just taking the path of least resistance.

Erik

[uscbigdawg]

Bill,

I agree with you whole heartedly. However, the only two flaws that I see with the IMGA system is that it doesn't acknowledge power (i.e. major vs. minor) and arguably doesn't acknowledge accuracy. I know one can fire 1 A in lieu of 1 D's, but let's face it, it's a lot faster to fire two bad shots than one good shot under this system.

My proposal is having major and minor rifle w/ .223 being minor. I do not want to discourage the .30 caliber rifle shooters and don't want to lump all of them in Heavy Metal/He-Man as some may want to use optics and then they're at a round count disadvantage if Open or Tactical are there only options.

The targets would be our current targets, although again, I propose switching to either the Amoeba's (Classic?) targets or the tombstones. If we want to stay with the humanoid targets, our current ones are fine or even adopting the IDPA target is okay. Basically, instead of points down, anything not an A is time added. Major gets a bonus in the time additions over minor. Everything in the end though is still time plus penalties.

Just a thought. Man, finally re-hydrated from Reno and the world is lovely and happy.

Rich

[rhino]

The Superstition 3 Gun, JP 3 Gun, and DPMS all have very successful matches running "time plus" with scoring made easy with 2 hits anywhere or one "A" hit. Add 5 seconds per miss, procedural, or no shoot. Quite simple and no varition of major / minor.

I still think any time plus penalties scoring creates too much opportunity for one big mistakes on a small stage to ruin a whole match. With Comstock scoring, the weighting of stages helps defray the cost of mistakes on smaller stages and I think that's a good thing.

[uscbigdawg]

Rhino,

Doesn't that work both ways though? You could shoot a stage out of your a$$ (i.e. like a 90-95%), do so-so/crash and burn on another and they sudo balance out.

Rich

[Flexmoney]

Joey,

Another good point...and one I hadn't thought of until you mentioned it. Stage weight...I'll have to ponder that one for a bit.

[Flexmoney]

- The scoring software will have to work. The method of scoring (on paper, at the stage) will have to be simple.

We have a local club that does monthly 3-gun. I can tell you all, with a degree of certainty, if it isn't EZ (pun intended) to use and implement...it just ain't gonna happen.

At the month matchly...there aren't any dedicated RO's for the stages. Squads and RO's travel...and trade off.

- Time plus works, and is easy...but, not everybody has the software (nor do they know how to set it up).

- My fix...which should allow the current software...is to score the shooter at whatever is the LOWEST power factor they compete with. We do that with pistol already...if any of your ammo goes minor (or sub-minor) then it all scores that way.

Beven has pointed out that there might be a problem with this when shooting SG slugs on paper (no problem on steel...it has to knock down to score). I don't know that it would be a problem...as ALL shotgun is the same power factor (anything above 20g makes Major).

The "all ammo, one power factor" way would really open up the game to those that shoot the "he-man" stuff. They wouldn't need a seperate category...they could compete on equal footing...'cause they would be shooting/scoring Major.

I don't see pistol capacity being much of an issue. If everybody that shoots a AR in 223 wants to jump onto a 9mm for the extra capacity of 2-3 extra rounds (over a 40), then have at it. I know I'll design stages so that it won't be an advantage. Of course, it might be nice to show up in town to shot a 3-gun match and be able to buy 9mm off the shelf. (That would be my only reason to switch...too transport less ammo.)

And, with guys shooting Minor (AR's in 223)...the match becomes more about accuracy. I'm not sure if that's good or bad? It might scare some people. I know that the hit facotrs could/would go lower. That would make some of the "gun handling" less of an issue. If you can get your Alphas, you don't have to have the worlds best "set this gun down and pick this one up" technique. Nor, would the shooter have as much of an advantage with a 40 round rifle magazine.

I think it would make for interesting shooting challenges/test...I'm not sure how the purist would see it?

[uscbigdawg]

Kyle,

There are some "administrative" concerns over the proposal:

score the shooter at whatever is the LOWEST power factor they compete with. We do that with pistol already...if any of your ammo goes minor (or sub-minor) then it all scores that way.

With a major pistol and major shotgun, the average shooter is going to ask WTF? Because my rifle is minor, I have to shoot minor? I'm not shooting 3-Gun then. Just a thought. I'm opposed to making .223 major, but it would be necessary under this (but really if it was only for USPSA 3-Gun, I suppose it would be alright).

ALL shotgun is the same power factor (anything above 20g makes Major

Unless your rifle is scored minor, then all your guns are minor.

The "all ammo, one power factor" way would really open up the game to those that shoot the "he-man" stuff. They wouldn't need a seperate category...they could compete on equal footing...'cause they would be shooting/scoring Major.

I think the opposite. The guys with the big bores, less Kelly Neal and his masocist like, would be at a disadvantage (in theory) due to the amount of recoil and availability of mags, etc. Too, and this is going to spur a fireback, in CA unless you already have an AR-10 or FN-FAL, you're at a huge disadvantage, and really hits the sport in one of its most popular states (I know the same applies currently to AR's, but more folks have these than AR-10's & FAL's). For IPSC, there needs to be a recognition of power. However, if there is a USPSA 3-Gun exemption for this making .223 major, again, I suppose it would make life simple with Comstock scoring.

And, with guys shooting Minor (AR's in 223)...the match becomes more about accuracy. I'm not sure if that's good or bad?

Definitely a good thing, but you're right. Some folks WOULD get scared.

That would make some of the "gun handling" less of an issue. If you can get your Alphas, you don't have to have the worlds best "set this gun down and pick this one up" technique.

Unfortunately, I think this is going to consistently be a problem with "pistol" shooters, shooting 3-Gun. The 3-Gun shooters this weekend, were significantly safer on the transitions on my stage than folks that you can tell, don't shoot significant amounts of 3-Gun. There were more than a few times it was flat out scary (I literally had to take a sec and catch my breath on one guy).

All in all, I think we're on the right track. Despite all the bickering, whining and disagreements, the optimist in me says that the best thing going right now is that we are discussing it. That DEFINITELY wasn't happening a year or two ago.

Rich

[Chris]

All major scoring rifles require ONE round per target that scores twice the

value. 1 A= 2 A's on scorecard, 1C= 2 C's on scorecard, etc.. BUT, you

also get double the penalties. 1 miss= 2 misses, 1 no-shoot= 2 no shoots,

etc..

Cool, now I can shoot a 40 round rifle course with a 20 round mag and never

reload. I don't see how thats really fair. I have to shoot the same

target with my pistol twice and its major.

[Flexmoney]

Rich,

Thanks for responding. I need the feedback so I can figure this stuff out (not that it really matters what I think).

score the shooter at whatever is the LOWEST power factor they compete with. We do that with pistol already...if any of your ammo goes minor (or sub-minor) then it all scores that way.

With a major pistol and major shotgun, the average shooter is going to ask WTF? Because my rifle is minor, I have to shoot minor? I'm not shooting 3-Gun then. Just a thought. I'm opposed to making .223 major, but it would be necessary under this (but really if it was only for USPSA 3-Gun, I suppose it would be alright).

I'm looking at this as a shooting test. So, I have to wonder how it makes a difference...as a shooting test. But, if the customer doesn't/can't see it that way, then it won't work.

How about this for the purists...if some of your ammo doesn't do the job...your still dead? (Ok...I don't want the discussion to go down that road, just trying to look at it from a different angle.)

QUOTE 

ALL shotgun is the same power factor (anything above 20g makes Major

Unless your rifle is scored minor, then all your guns are minor.

I don't see that as a problem. All legal gauge shotguns are the same. And, the only place this comes up is on slug shooting. 223 guys shoot (thier SG slugs) for accuracy...he man gets a break and scores Major (evens the playing field).

QUOTE 

The "all ammo, one power factor" way would really open up the game to those that shoot the "he-man" stuff. They wouldn't need a seperate category...they could compete on equal footing...'cause they would be shooting/scoring Major.

I think the opposite. The guys with the big bores, less Kelly Neal and his masocist like, would be at a disadvantage (in theory) due to the amount of recoil and availability of mags, etc. Too, and this is going to spur a fireback, in CA unless you already have an AR-10 or FN-FAL, you're at a huge disadvantage, and really hits the sport in one of its most popular states (I know the same applies currently to AR's, but more folks have these than AR-10's & FAL's). For IPSC, there needs to be a recognition of power. However, if there is a USPSA 3-Gun exemption for this making .223 major, again, I suppose it would make life simple with Comstock scoring.

hmmm...I am having trouble seeing your perspective? The way I see it, if the guys shooting AR's(223) are Minor...that means they have to slow down and shoot Alphas (with rifle, pistol, and SG slugs). That lowers the hit factors.

As the hit factors go lower...accuracy plays more of a role...the non-shooting activities (reloading a 20 round M1 mag) play less of a role.

As it currently stands...the He-man guys have very little chance of competing (I'm sure some can now, but that is not the norm.) This gets them closer to the game. I don't know if it would play out that they would be truely competitive, maybe they would be more so? It would certainly close the gap.

QUOTE 

And, with guys shooting Minor (AR's in 223)...the match becomes more about accuracy. I'm not sure if that's good or bad?

Definitely a good thing, but you're right. Some folks WOULD get scared.

That could be the largest hurdle.

QUOTE 

That would make some of the "gun handling" less of an issue. If you can get your Alphas, you don't have to have the worlds best "set this gun down and pick this one up" technique. 

Unfortunately, I think this is going to consistently be a problem with "pistol" shooters, shooting 3-Gun. The 3-Gun shooters this weekend, were significantly safer on the transitions on my stage than folks that you can tell, don't shoot significant amounts of 3-Gun. There were more than a few times it was flat out scary (I literally had to take a sec and catch my breath on one guy).

My bad...I wasn't clear on what I was saying here. My point wasn't about safety (which, of course, needs to be there), it was about hit factors and keeping the foucs on the shooting.

Bear (Erik Lund) posted that he felt that he would need to focus a lot of training time on switching guns to be ultra competitive in shooting multi-gun (Erik, just paraphasing here). Bear is clearly competitive in 3-gun...but, he sees the need to place quite a bit of focus on some of the non-shooting aspects of the sport. Of course, that is important and needs to be there...but, perhaps we coulod give it a bit less weight in the outcome of the match?

All in all, I think we're on the right track. Despite all the bickering, whining and disagreements, the optimist in me says that the best thing going right now is that we are discussing it. That DEFINITELY wasn't happening a year or two ago.

Ahem!

My fix would change the game. Nearly everybody would be shooting Minor power factor. Accuracy would become more important.

[uscbigdawg]

hmmm...I am having trouble seeing your perspective? The way I see it, if the guys shooting AR's(223) are Minor...that means they have to slow down and shoot Alphas (with rifle, pistol, and SG slugs). That lowers the hit factors.

Kyle - I think the problem here is that despite having a major pistol and a major shotgun (I know they all are), but because .223 is a minor caliber (in USPSA scoring) all my guns are minor. I understand the concept completely as it's how we derive Open vs. Limited. If one gun is Open, you're all Open.

The issue is scoring vs. equipment (there shouldn't be a big diff, but I think this is a medium sized one). 90% of your competitors now in USPSA will now instead of competing with one gun down to minor, will be competing with ALL guns at minor. Obviously the field is level, but psychologically you ask, why even have a major and minor then. Your alternative is to buy another rifle in a major caliber (until the PF is dropped a tick more for 6.8 SPC and/or another reliable caliber, with adequate load data) rather than being able to run with what you have and what is the "norm".

However, this can be "worked around" if USPSA decides to make .223 major for Open and Limited, with a provision that if they decide to add HM division, that it be .30 caliber only, etc. and has it's own PF.

Whatcha think? The thinking is that we can use the same software, the closer we get to making the guns major scoring....I think .

Rich

[kurtm]

Bear1142:

In the time plus type scoring the disappearing targets are usually treated as bonus or time off targets, so you have to balance benifit to time to shoot.

For the time plus system, it is easy to differentiat between major minor right at the target by allowing "major" to have an A or two hits anywhere, while "minor" has to have one A or AT LEAST A; C D, some times I have tweeked this even more, and demanded at least C, C out of minor. Since the time added or subtracted is handled right at the "target" ( r.o. calls the hits ) the score program remains simple. KURTM

[Mig]

Bear1142,

Spoke with you at the match on this and feel this system would have merit and should be explored.

[Tom Freeman]

Time plus Minor. D is scored as a miss. Two C or better hits required.

Time plus Major. Two hits anywhere, time stands.

Could work ???

[benny hill]

OH ! HELL, Let's just put all the idea's in a hat, draw one out & SHOOT SOME.

[Alan Meek]

I'll add my obervations from the after action Qback seat.

These are strictly based upon observations of the threads that have been posted.

There has been a lot of discussion of the EZWinScore and how it relates to Three Gun / Multi Gun Matches.

When you enter a competitor's info for Rifle you have the option of recognizing Major/Minor.

Now the USPSA BOD approved MultiGun rules to make the multigun concept feasible within USPSA rules and approved scoring programs. In the MultiGun rules a multigun stage is to be designated as a Rifle Pistol or Shotgun stage as the Primary gun This would then default to the scoring being handled for the declared power factor of that primary gun. Additional guns for that stage would only then engage targets that have the equivalent of a single "A" hit there by negating the major/minor scoring issue if the addtional gun's power factor does not match the primary gun. This was to be accomplished by the use of Steel, Pepper Poppers and Targets with only the A zone available via the B,C, and D zones covered by hard cover. Now while this is probably not the best long term solution it did provide a feasible solution.

I am hopeful that in the near future (before the next Three Gun Nationals) that EZWinScore has been revised to score multi-gun stages and the need to impose restrictions of the above solution. I would suggest that the program be modified that allowd the configuration of the stages allow you to desiginate the number of targets to be engaged by each gun in a multi-gun stage. The Score sheet could be then designed with sections for each gun and subtotaled individually. Data entry would then have the same subsections.

In addressing the low hit factors and the potential gaming of stages. USPSA while it promotes Accuracy, Power and Speed. Speed becomes the preferred ddenominator in scores. It is generally accepted that handguns are effective to 50yds yet the majority fo all stages shot are within 10-20 yds. I would suggest that in the process of course design diligence be paid to design courses of fire that are challenging but are also capable of being run in average times of the 30 sec window. I would also suggest that the range of target engagement noexceed 50yds for the majority of shotgun targets to be engaged with slugs and keep the rifle target engagement to not exceed 200yds with the majority of the targets set closer. You can always increase difficulty by adding no-shoots and hard cover to limit the available scoring areas.

Alan

[benelli2]

well while we're at it, let's change the rules and make 9mm able to make major in limited pistol like it is in open class, we all run the same barrels anyway. That will take care of the minor pistol problem

[rhino]

We could make it really simple and use something like the Paladin System where targets are either neutralized or they are not. Then assign the number and type of hits required depending on the gun/caliber and have at it. A neutralized target would score X points no matter what you shot it with, and one you didn't neutralize would be -Y points.

Then divide by time.

[Meathead]

Keep current system and fix the scoring software.

[Sterling White]

Eric,

The proposal sounds OK....will need to ponder it a bit before making any hard conclusions. Simple is good!

Sterling

[hopalong]

How about this?

In a multi gun stage, say 8 paper,(16 shots) 9 steel close with pistol and 12 frangible targets (shotgun).

rifle for the paper, pistol for the steel and shotgun.

Score like this.

rifle- whatever PF it makes

pistol and shotgun do not matter now that they are Hit/miss targets.

this now can be scores as a single gun in Winscore and for those who do stats can put it in the "rifle match" to make match percentage or put it in a 4th match for "combo stages" for its own match percentage.

it may take a little more thinking on the stage designers but the stages can be designed to use ezwinscore and use more than 1 gun but as far as the scoring program goes it thinks it is 1 gun.

I know what about stages with pistol and rifle both shooting paper, use the power factor of the gun that makes up the majority of the stage, tell your competitors that before hand, As on the match entry form so all will know, and they will either come shoot and live with it until someone reworks winscore or not show up to shoot. In my opinion the shooters want to shoot and if the scoring is the samd for all they dont give a ratts butt.

We did not have any Multi gun stages at the Misssissippi 3-gun just for this reason (scoring), but, boy did I want to have some.

Sam Keen

[Bill Sahlberg]

Sam,

If you used the "time plus" Superstition 3 Gun, JP 3 Gun, and DPMS scoring system that already works the scoring is made simple regardless of what gun is used or major / minor. If you have ever run or scored a 3 Gun match you appreciate the simplicity and ease of this scoring. Why penalize a shooter using a 12 ga shotgun and a .45 acp because he chooses to shoot an AR-15 over a .308? I have been to 3 Gun matches since 1991 and the major calibers have always been very rare.

[rhino]

In a multi gun stage, say 8 paper,(16 shots) 9 steel close with pistol and 12 frangible targets (shotgun).

rifle for the paper, pistol for the steel and shotgun.

Score like this.

rifle- whatever PF it makes

pistol and shotgun do not matter now that they are Hit/miss targets.

this now can be scores as a single gun in Winscore and for those who do stats can put it in the "rifle match" to make match percentage or put it in a 4th match for "combo stages" for its own match percentage.

That's how we did it for out last 3-Gun match. We had a rifle-pistol stage, where you started with pistol and whacked pepper poppers, then shot paper targets with the rifle. I scored it as a rifle stage and everything worked out nicely.

Using "digital" targets may be the best way to go in the end ... if it's either down/not or broken/not, then power factor only matters by making it easier or harder to knock it down or break it. It's pretty much the same thing as using paper with only the A zone available, but less annoying to the shooters!