Chuck Anderson Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Does anyone think that the limitation of a 10 round magazine may be a disadvantage considering that USPSA eliminated the 10+1 limitation on a loaded start capacity? Now tube guys can run XRails in all matches and Saigas can have 12 to 20 round mags. Is a 12 round mag in the works? Reloading the Akdal will be much faster, but the 10 round mags "technically" put the gun at a disadvantage from the Saiga. Personally I would rather Firebird skip the 12 round design and focus instead on a big 15 rounder. Be a better equalizer and a more "useful" magazine than going from 10rds to 12rds. 15 rounder, OK. I'd rather have a 12 or 16 round magazine. Most SG arrays are set up as 4 or 8 round arrays. Not all, but quite a few. A 16 rounder would allow you to skip a load spot. 15 really wouldn't. 12 you're still light enough to manuever easily but have enough for an 8 and 4 round array or could still save a load somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Damn it Chuck quit all that thinkin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Does anyone think that the limitation of a 10 round magazine may be a disadvantage considering that USPSA eliminated the 10+1 limitation on a loaded start capacity? Now tube guys can run XRails in all matches and Saigas can have 12 to 20 round mags. Is a 12 round mag in the works? Reloading the Akdal will be much faster, but the 10 round mags "technically" put the gun at a disadvantage from the Saiga. Personally I would rather Firebird skip the 12 round design and focus instead on a big 15 rounder. Be a better equalizer and a more "useful" magazine than going from 10rds to 12rds. The problem with that from what I have seen is the spring issue. At this point the 10 rounders use AGP springs which are actually longer than Surefire 12 rounders. Im not an expert on spring rates etc. but for anyone who has seen the OEM springs I like the way they are square wound and look better. IF a similar spring but longer could be sourced that would be great. I know there are numerous manufacturers of springs but the cost and volume needed would be something to consider. I would bet the spring MFGs would do the engineering needed to come up with the spring rates and number of coils etc but what would the cost be? I will settle for STONE RELIABLE 10/12 rounders for glitchy 15 rounders. I think getting that many to stack and feed may be a challenge. If I had time and the shop Id sure like to try though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audifn Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Ok, Chuck you win...I'm with you on the 16 rounders. I still say skip the 12 rounders for now in favor of the bigger mag. In terms of reliability and springs and such...Take a look at the European IPSC shotgun guys... many of them have 15 to 20 round box mags that run pretty darn well. If they can do it, I'm sure we can too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Ok, Chuck you win...I'm with you on the 16 rounders. I still say skip the 12 rounders for now in favor of the bigger mag. In terms of reliability and springs and such...Take a look at the European IPSC shotgun guys... many of them have 15 to 20 round box mags that run pretty darn well. If they can do it, I'm sure we can too. Was not aware of that. Can you source a link for exactly what they are using? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Ok, Chuck you win...I'm with you on the 16 rounders. I still say skip the 12 rounders for now in favor of the bigger mag. In terms of reliability and springs and such...Take a look at the European IPSC shotgun guys... many of them have 15 to 20 round box mags that run pretty darn well. If they can do it, I'm sure we can too. Was not aware of that. Can you source a link for exactly what they are using? Thanks! My 20 round mag works great, too bad it only fits a Saiga! Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipplehead Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I heard from a little birdie that an 18 round mag is the goal before years end.That would would do the trick No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Ok, Chuck you win...I'm with you on the 16 rounders. I still say skip the 12 rounders for now in favor of the bigger mag. In terms of reliability and springs and such...Take a look at the European IPSC shotgun guys... many of them have 15 to 20 round box mags that run pretty darn well. If they can do it, I'm sure we can too. Was not aware of that. Can you source a link for exactly what they are using? Thanks! I have a source for +power springs for 15 round Saiga mags, but at $40 a pop, Im gonna keep looking... ETA: R&R sells springs for their 20 round mags for $25. Edited March 21, 2012 by gose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 My 10 rounders started out running pretty good but have pretty much turned to single shot. The stock 5 rounders run great so I know its not a gun issue. Trying to figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sako92S Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Take a look at the European IPSC shotgun guys... many of them have 15 to 20 round box mags that run pretty darn well. If they can do it, I'm sure we can too. Those mags are not allowed on IPSC matches anymore due to new rule change beginning of 2012. IPSC open division has new rule which allows 14 rounds on tube fed and 10 rounds on box fed guns. Before the rule change mag capacity was not limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 My 10 rounders started out running pretty good but have pretty much turned to single shot. The stock 5 rounders run great so I know its not a gun issue. Trying to figure it out. Saga or 1919? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 My 10 rounders started out running pretty good but have pretty much turned to single shot. The stock 5 rounders run great so I know its not a gun issue. Trying to figure it out. Saga or 1919? 1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audifn Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Take a look at the European IPSC shotgun guys... many of them have 15 to 20 round box mags that run pretty darn well. If they can do it, I'm sure we can too. Those mags are not allowed on IPSC matches anymore due to new rule change beginning of 2012. IPSC open division has new rule which allows 14 rounds on tube fed and 10 rounds on box fed guns. Before the rule change mag capacity was not limited. Yeah, I knew about the rule change, but my point was that the technology/knowedge for producing the higher capacity 12-20rd shotgun mags is already out there and can be adapted for what we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Take a look at the European IPSC shotgun guys... many of them have 15 to 20 round box mags that run pretty darn well. If they can do it, I'm sure we can too. Those mags are not allowed on IPSC matches anymore due to new rule change beginning of 2012. IPSC open division has new rule which allows 14 rounds on tube fed and 10 rounds on box fed guns. Before the rule change mag capacity was not limited. Well good, there should be a bunch of 11+ mags for sale now. Just need to figure out how to get them into the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Take a look at the European IPSC shotgun guys... many of them have 15 to 20 round box mags that run pretty darn well. If they can do it, I'm sure we can too. Those mags are not allowed on IPSC matches anymore due to new rule change beginning of 2012. IPSC open division has new rule which allows 14 rounds on tube fed and 10 rounds on box fed guns. Before the rule change mag capacity was not limited. Yeah, I knew about the rule change, but my point was that the technology/knowedge for producing the higher capacity 12-20rd shotgun mags is already out there and can be adapted for what we need. The technology is no secret and manufacturing is not really the challenge either. The $$$$$$ to put the mag into production is the major hurdle. In particular to the 1919 the receiver will not allow for the increased size a polymer magazine which is slightly cheaper and the startup money for metal magazines is prohibitive for the little guy who builds in our sport. There just really aren't that many idiots out there like us who want to pay a couple weeks pay for a set of mags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audifn Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Take a look at the European IPSC shotgun guys... many of them have 15 to 20 round box mags that run pretty darn well. If they can do it, I'm sure we can too. Those mags are not allowed on IPSC matches anymore due to new rule change beginning of 2012. IPSC open division has new rule which allows 14 rounds on tube fed and 10 rounds on box fed guns. Before the rule change mag capacity was not limited. Yeah, I knew about the rule change, but my point was that the technology/knowedge for producing the higher capacity 12-20rd shotgun mags is already out there and can be adapted for what we need. The technology is no secret and manufacturing is not really the challenge either. The $$$$$$ to put the mag into production is the major hurdle. In particular to the 1919 the receiver will not allow for the increased size a polymer magazine which is slightly cheaper and the startup money for metal magazines is prohibitive for the little guy who builds in our sport. There just really aren't that many idiots out there like us who want to pay a couple weeks pay for a set of mags Very true and I didn't know the receivers were too tight to handle plastic mags however, the cost effectiveness of poylmer over metal brings up another option....there is no reason that mag extensions can't be produced out of polymer instead of metal right? If thats the case, then someone should technically be able to more affordably create larger mag extensions right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodelta Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 One of my friends got his Firebird 1919 today, and I got to run a few mags through it. Extremely fast and flat shooting. My wife shot it, and noticed how little it recoiled compared to my M1. I want one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Take a look at the European IPSC shotgun guys... many of them have 15 to 20 round box mags that run pretty darn well. If they can do it, I'm sure we can too. Those mags are not allowed on IPSC matches anymore due to new rule change beginning of 2012. IPSC open division has new rule which allows 14 rounds on tube fed and 10 rounds on box fed guns. Before the rule change mag capacity was not limited. Yeah, I knew about the rule change, but my point was that the technology/knowedge for producing the higher capacity 12-20rd shotgun mags is already out there and can be adapted for what we need. The technology is no secret and manufacturing is not really the challenge either. The $$$$$$ to put the mag into production is the major hurdle. In particular to the 1919 the receiver will not allow for the increased size a polymer magazine which is slightly cheaper and the startup money for metal magazines is prohibitive for the little guy who builds in our sport. There just really aren't that many idiots out there like us who want to pay a couple weeks pay for a set of mags Very true and I didn't know the receivers were too tight to handle plastic mags however, the cost effectiveness of poylmer over metal brings up another option....there is no reason that mag extensions can't be produced out of polymer instead of metal right? If thats the case, then someone should technically be able to more affordably create larger mag extensions right? Well yes and no. The plastic mag is cheaper to produce AFTER you pay for the mold. For what that mold will cost, you can build a truck load of metal mags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audifn Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Ah, Charles, That makes sense. I knew molds were expensive, but I didn't realize they were THAT expensive. In reality, I don't really care how they are produced or who produces them as long as we get some high capacity Akdal mags out of the deal =) Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Molds are certainly not cheap, but probably not quite a truckload. The issue becomes more complex, and expensive, when you want metal inserts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I cant explain why, but some of the early mags just refuse to work reliably The current MKA mags seem to be quite a bit better If the mag has a notch in the rear spine, at the bottom, its an early mag The new mags also have a plastic bolt lock Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 If the mag has a notch in the rear spine, at the bottom, its an early mag The new mags also have a plastic bolt lock Jim Ahhhh,,, maybe why Im having issues. I thought that was something you did as a mod. They are inbound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g929 Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) I just dont get it or is my lack of experience but so much technology in our side no 1 have been avel to make this matter simpler for all. I know thair is alot of computer tech that can help produce a decine using the same 5 round mag as a refrerance.. Please coret me if im wrong Edited March 29, 2012 by g929 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I cant explain why, but some of the early mags just refuse to work reliably The current MKA mags seem to be quite a bit better If the mag has a notch in the rear spine, at the bottom, its an early mag The new mags also have a plastic bolt lock Jim When Yancy and I compared factory mags at SMM3G I think we found at least three, maybe even four, different versions between us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Campbell Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) i've found at least 4 diferences, in 8, 5 round mags that I have. Now I have 2, 11 round Firebird mags and 4, 13 round mags that I made, they seem to work. 250 + test rounds. Still playing with the other two, trying to modify a sagia mag to work, I keep trimming thru the plastic and they crack or I cannot get them in the gun. The combo mags work, so far, 13 rounds. I'm still experimenting. Old retired guys have the time to play with this kind of crap. I'm shooting a 3 gun match this weekend and will only use my mags. I'm really hope that they work at the match as well as they work in practise. Otherwise I'm screwed. One thing I have found is that you must have a full stroke of the bolt, every time, when you are shooting or loading from cruiser ready, short stroking at any time does not work. It also seems, that the gun can cycle to fast, to pick up the next round, if you are using full powered slugs, but with a little breaking in of the gun and the mags this problem stops. The guys at the range I belong to, think I am completely NUTS. I go to the shot gun range and rip off 3 or 4 rounds. and change mags and do it again. If the mags run the first 3 or 4 they will run the the rest of the mag. Edited March 29, 2012 by Dave Campbell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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