I hate giving a DQ

[Poppa Bear]

Had a shooter tonight who is fairly new to the game. I could see he was a bit nervous after the first stage was completed and when I went into "If you are finished,unload and show clear" he forgot to drop the mag. He then released the slide, squeezed the trigger and got a DQ as he sent a round down range. A real nice guy and you feel so bad issuing a DQ when you can see it was the nerves that caused the screw-up. To his credit he took it well and hung around to help paste.

On my part I noticed that he forgot to drop the mag, but before I could stop him he let the slide go forward and squeezed the trigger.

[Maksim]

Had exact same situation. New guy. Put one in the berm before I could even say something. Shooter was trying to rush. No reason to get dq off of the clock.

[HI5-O]

Good thing no one got hurt and hopefully they won't do that again.

[gunguru]

No need to rush, easy to say when we have a few matches behind the belt, but remember the "rush" of adrenalin of your first match...

At my first match, I took the opposite way, yes I was under rush, but at the second I knew my cof was over, I immediatly drop the mag and rack the slide, without waiting for the UASC command.

The RO smiled a bit and said I "can wait for his command", but he said he prefered a lot a too safe shooter. But a one stage, I did it too fast, because instead of UASC, he asked us to "reload and make ready" for the immediate next stage... oopps.

[MarkCO]

Don't worry about it. For the vast majority of people, that first DQ is a great learning experience. In a few years, he will still remember it as a positive reinforcement.

Letting safety infractions slide reinforces poor procedures and happens way too much, especially with new shooters.

One of the things about stepping into the box and making ready before the actual command and self initiating "Un-load and show clear" is that if it becomes habitual, then an element of the safety has been compromised. The RO commands need to be heard and followed, not habitually chased under adrenaline. As a competitor, it actually reduces some stress to narrow the window to just "beep" to last shot and let the RO control everything else...that is after all their job.

[Sarge]

Don't worry about it. For the vast majority of people, that first DQ is a great learning experience. In a few years, he will still remember it as a positive reinforcement.

Very true for the "vast majority" as you noted.

Then again there is the guy I had to DQ last year who was also new but turned to go around a wall and basically pointed his gun straight uprange. It has been over a year now and he has never been to another match.

I don't dwell on that and neither should any RO who has to do what is necessary in the performance of his duties. I don't think any RO likes to issue a DQ. I know I don't. But the fact remains, it's our job if need be.

[GrumpyOne]

You didn't give him a DQ, he earned it. Yes, it sucks, but you go on with the match....

[ALBY]

I think we all understand that grumpy, but it does ruin my day to DQ a shooter.

[lawboy]

Don't worry about it. For the vast majority of people, that first DQ is a great learning experience. In a few years, he will still remember it as a positive reinforcement.

Letting safety infractions slide reinforces poor procedures and happens way too much, especially with new shooters.

One of the things about stepping into the box and making ready before the actual command and self initiating "Un-load and show clear" is that if it becomes habitual, then an element of the safety has been compromised. The RO commands need to be heard and followed, not habitually chased under adrenaline. As a competitor, it actually reduces some stress to narrow the window to just "beep" to last shot and let the RO control everything else...that is after all their job.

Oh. My. God. Thank you! I don't care if you invented USPSA. You need to wait for the RO to give the commands. The commands help insure safety. The commands help insure that the RO sees what is happening. The commands give the RO control of the pace of what is happening (which, in the OP's case, would have allowed him to prevent the DQ). The commands are there to insure that the shooter is actually finished with the course of fire (IF you are finished ...). The commands are IMPORTANT. I always wait for them. If the RO is distracted I will just wait until he/she gives the commands.

I slow shooters down all the time during ULASC, novice and veteran shooters alike. I will make them reopen that slide and SHOW me clear, then hammer down holster when I tell them to. It is absolutely all about safety.

[Poppa Bear]

The part that makes this more of a "Match Screw-up" is that the shooter is fairly new but not a total noob. He has shot enough to be calm under fire like he has done in the past.

But as I noted in my original post I could see how nervous he was as the stage ended, probably more of an adrenaline induced effect than the new shooter effect. Unfortunately it bit him because he brain farted, AD'ed and therefore DQ'ed.

[dhenry132]

those that have and those that will !

[frayluisfan]

This is a really interesting thread, and I am learning a lot, as I am fairly unexperienced at USPSA shooting. I've been on both sides of this issue.

The very first official USPSA match I went to was with a friend who was really into it, a very experienced shooter. All my previous experience was with informal fun matches at an indoor range with multiple lanes. Standard procedure was to have multiple shooters engaging targets on multiple lanes, as you've probably seen at your local indoor ranges. So on my first official outdoor match, when the shooter before me finished, I walked over to the berm at the back of the shooting bay, faced the berm at a range of about 1 yard (facing about 9:30, if 12:00 is straight down range), and carefully loaded my pistol. I then reholstered, and went back to the starting box. When I performed this procedure, all other shooters were straight down range, so at my 4:00 or further back. When the RO told me to load and make ready, I said, "Ummm...I already did." His eyes got pretty big, but when I told him exactly what I did, where and how, he explained the 180 concept to me (I had never heard of it before, having never shot at a formal match outdoors before). He let it go at that and I shot the rest of the match without incident. Was he right to let it go under those circumstances for a first time shooter who didn't know the rule and had driven 3 hours to attend the match? I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

Last summer, an experienced shooter (A class, I think) drove several hours to our local match, and as the first shooter of our squad on the first stage, lost control of his weapon on the intial buzzer. During the initial draw, the pistol went flying skyward, rotating in all directions, and came down to thunk and bounce on the ground. Since I was scorekeeping and was standing right behind the RO, I was scared spitless. The RO graciously but clearly DQ'd the shooter. I think he was right to do so.

Thanks again to all who have replied so far. I'm learning a lot.

frayluisfan

[Maksim]

This is a really interesting thread, and I am learning a lot, as I am fairly unexperienced at USPSA shooting. I've been on both sides of this issue.

The very first official USPSA match I went to was with a friend who was really into it, a very experienced shooter. All my previous experience was with informal fun matches at an indoor range with multiple lanes. Standard procedure was to have multiple shooters engaging targets on multiple lanes, as you've probably seen at your local indoor ranges. So on my first official outdoor match, when the shooter before me finished, I walked over to the berm at the back of the shooting bay, faced the berm at a range of about 1 yard (facing about 9:30, if 12:00 is straight down range), and carefully loaded my pistol. I then reholstered, and went back to the starting box. When I performed this procedure, all other shooters were straight down range, so at my 4:00 or further back. When the RO told me to load and make ready, I said, "Ummm...I already did." His eyes got pretty big, but when I told him exactly what I did, where and how, he explained the 180 concept to me (I had never heard of it before, having never shot at a formal match outdoors before). He let it go at that and I shot the rest of the match without incident. Was he right to let it go under those circumstances for a first time shooter who didn't know the rule and had driven 3 hours to attend the match? I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

Last summer, an experienced shooter (A class, I think) drove several hours to our local match, and as the first shooter of our squad on the first stage, lost control of his weapon on the intial buzzer. During the initial draw, the pistol went flying skyward, rotating in all directions, and came down to thunk and bounce on the ground. Since I was scorekeeping and was standing right behind the RO, I was scared spitless. The RO graciously but clearly DQ'd the shooter. I think he was right to do so.

Thanks again to all who have replied so far. I'm learning a lot.

frayluisfan

Example 1.

the bad is on you for assumming, the bad is on your friend who did not explain... but most of all, unless you were the first shooter, what were you doing not watching every other shooter on your squad before you? Didn't your club have some sort of a new shooter orientation? this is completely unreasonable thing to happen. Ie... if you have an RO watching your gun, why would you think it is ok to go downrange and load your gun by yourself? Has nothing to do with 180, and everything to do with listening and following directions. In any case, RM should of been called.

Example 2.

"I think he was right to do so. "

there is no think. Clearly a huge safety issue and was absolutely without a doubt a DQ. Nothing to think about.

Maybe we take safety a bit seriously around our local clubs, but it irritates the shit out of me that it seems so many other clubs use USPSA safety rules as guidelines and choose when to DQ a shooter, and choose to ignore what in their minds is "minor" stuff and only enforce a DQ when the shooter lets one go. In my eyes, when that round goes off, it is wayyyyyyyy too late.

Part of the reason I got into, and stayed shooting USPSA, and as heavily involved as I am now is because of the impeccable safety record. It is so safe because of the rules. Don't mess with the rules, and absolutely not the safety rules.

Edit: Driving 3 hours, or a 5 hour flight does not relieve you of common sense. It does not mean you can ignore the rules.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Maksim

[leewhiskey]

I agree with Maksim... New shooter or not, it doesn't matter. I have seen a new shooter draw on his first stage and sweep himself, DQ. That is not just a USPSA rule, but I would think that would be standard practice in any type of gun handling. Just like the 180, don't point your gun at other people... Most of our rules are common sense that should be known by anyone who has a gun.

In my opinion, simply put, DQ's "fix" things. When I DQ'd for missing my holster after hammer down holster, guess what happened, I am now very deliberate when I re-holster. I have no problem with a shooter that leaves the match after a DQ, their choice, go home and think about it. But the one that never comes back because he got DQ'd, those are the ones I don't want to shoot with.

[gunguru]

More than agree...

You manipulated and getting a gun in "hot" condition with people downrange????

To me, no matter if you did it "safely" according to you, it's unsafe to ALL other shooter, specialy those downrange. We all go downrange with the peace of mind than ALL firearm are safe and unloaded. If I was in charge, it was an Automatic DQ, as you get your gun out of the holster outside of safety area without the command of RO. You get a loaded gun before allowed to, another DQ. This is the official "rules" part.

Now the unnoficial "rude" part: A shooter doing this under my supervision will not only be disqualified, but surely will be refered to RM, but before doing this, he will be ask to leave with my big feet on his ass, at least, he will know the name of many saints. And maybe I will suggest him to do the Black Badge training again, or never came back (and I keep the F word to myself).

It's a MAJOR safety violation, manipulating a firearm and Ammunition while people are downrange, it's not a ruling thing, it's a BASIC SAFETY!!!! As a shooter, everybody on the line should know this.

And, to me, the RO who accepted this should see his RO licence revoked, as it's a MAJOR safety violation, and by giving you a favor, he didn't help anybody, but cautionned a hazardous situation. If I was a shooter with you, and seeing this situation, I left immediatly, I NEVER want to be on a range where someone accepted this kind of safety violation.

You think I'm little bit exessive, maybe, but beeing downrange when someone play with a loaded gun behing my back it's not my kind of "fun". I prefer to be a shooter than a classic popper.

[Sarge]

When the RO told me to load and make ready, I said, "Ummm...I already did."

I don't care how long you drove to get there you would have been done, period!

[frayluisfan]

This is a really interesting thread, and I am learning a lot, as I am fairly unexperienced at USPSA shooting. I've been on both sides of this issue.

The very first official USPSA match I went to was with a friend who was really into it, a very experienced shooter. All my previous experience was with informal fun matches at an indoor range with multiple lanes. Standard procedure was to have multiple shooters engaging targets on multiple lanes, as you've probably seen at your local indoor ranges. So on my first official outdoor match, when the shooter before me finished, I walked over to the berm at the back of the shooting bay, faced the berm at a range of about 1 yard (facing about 9:30, if 12:00 is straight down range), and carefully loaded my pistol. I then reholstered, and went back to the starting box. When I performed this procedure, all other shooters were straight down range, so at my 4:00 or further back. When the RO told me to load and make ready, I said, "Ummm...I already did." His eyes got pretty big, but when I told him exactly what I did, where and how, he explained the 180 concept to me (I had never heard of it before, having never shot at a formal match outdoors before). He let it go at that and I shot the rest of the match without incident. Was he right to let it go under those circumstances for a first time shooter who didn't know the rule and had driven 3 hours to attend the match? I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

Last summer, an experienced shooter (A class, I think) drove several hours to our local match, and as the first shooter of our squad on the first stage, lost control of his weapon on the intial buzzer. During the initial draw, the pistol went flying skyward, rotating in all directions, and came down to thunk and bounce on the ground. Since I was scorekeeping and was standing right behind the RO, I was scared spitless. The RO graciously but clearly DQ'd the shooter. I think he was right to do so.

Thanks again to all who have replied so far. I'm learning a lot.

frayluisfan

Example 1.

the bad is on you for assumming, the bad is on your friend who did not explain... but most of all, unless you were the first shooter, what were you doing not watching every other shooter on your squad before you? Didn't your club have some sort of a new shooter orientation? this is completely unreasonable thing to happen. Ie... if you have an RO watching your gun, why would you think it is ok to go downrange and load your gun by yourself? Has nothing to do with 180, and everything to do with listening and following directions. In any case, RM should of been called.

Example 2.

"I think he was right to do so. "

there is no think. Clearly a huge safety issue and was absolutely without a doubt a DQ. Nothing to think about.

Maybe we take safety a bit seriously around our local clubs, but it irritates the shit out of me that it seems so many other clubs use USPSA safety rules as guidelines and choose when to DQ a shooter, and choose to ignore what in their minds is "minor" stuff and only enforce a DQ when the shooter lets one go. In my eyes, when that round goes off, it is wayyyyyyyy too late.

Part of the reason I got into, and stayed shooting USPSA, and as heavily involved as I am now is because of the impeccable safety record. It is so safe because of the rules. Don't mess with the rules, and absolutely not the safety rules.

Edit: Driving 3 hours, or a 5 hour flight does not relieve you of common sense. It does not mean you can ignore the rules.

To answer your question, Maxsim, no, there was no "new shooter orientation", and there was no run-down of any of USPSA's rules. There was no RO watching my gun, and no explanation of any standard protocols. Why do you assume that a brand new (to USPSA) shooter would pick up this kind of thing on the first stage? Have you forgotten the nerves and sensory overload you exprienced at your first match? Some things that we take for granted as "basic" or "obvious" are only basic or obvious because that's what we've been taught, and what we have seen reinforced over and over. And the driving 3 hours reference in my post was not meant as an excuse for "ignor[ing] the rules." In order to ignore rules, one must first be made aware of them. I was totally unaware of the rule. Maybe you should step back a minute and take a deep breath before you assume that I ignored/disregarded instructions.

[rupie]

It is the clubs responsibility In my Opinion to make sure no one ever touches a gun at your event that hasn't gone through a new shooter briefing, with all commands, basic safety stuff etc. Then they should assign these people if they didn't come with experienced friends to someone to help them through the day. There is way to much going on to not help new shooters if you want them to be safe, enjoy themselves and come back next month.

[Poppa Bear]

I did a potentially DQ'able offense several years ago when I was still fairly new to the game. I was competing using a concealment holster that made the RO a little uneasy. He asked me to go to the safety table and adjust its position to a bit farther forward. The bay we were in had several tables against the berm so I made the incorrect assumption that they were the safety table he was referring to. I was using correct procedures for utilizing the safety table even if it was not one of the approved ones. One of the embedded RO's came over and counseled me on the potential to be DQ'ed for my mistake, but acknowledged that they had made a mistake by failing to point out the approved tables. He gave me directions to the closest safety area and I have not made that mistake since.

[Maksim]

This is a really interesting thread, and I am learning a lot, as I am fairly unexperienced at USPSA shooting. I've been on both sides of this issue.

The very first official USPSA match I went to was with a friend who was really into it, a very experienced shooter. All my previous experience was with informal fun matches at an indoor range with multiple lanes. Standard procedure was to have multiple shooters engaging targets on multiple lanes, as you've probably seen at your local indoor ranges. So on my first official outdoor match, when the shooter before me finished, I walked over to the berm at the back of the shooting bay, faced the berm at a range of about 1 yard (facing about 9:30, if 12:00 is straight down range), and carefully loaded my pistol. I then reholstered, and went back to the starting box. When I performed this procedure, all other shooters were straight down range, so at my 4:00 or further back. When the RO told me to load and make ready, I said, "Ummm...I already did." His eyes got pretty big, but when I told him exactly what I did, where and how, he explained the 180 concept to me (I had never heard of it before, having never shot at a formal match outdoors before). He let it go at that and I shot the rest of the match without incident. Was he right to let it go under those circumstances for a first time shooter who didn't know the rule and had driven 3 hours to attend the match? I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

Last summer, an experienced shooter (A class, I think) drove several hours to our local match, and as the first shooter of our squad on the first stage, lost control of his weapon on the intial buzzer. During the initial draw, the pistol went flying skyward, rotating in all directions, and came down to thunk and bounce on the ground. Since I was scorekeeping and was standing right behind the RO, I was scared spitless. The RO graciously but clearly DQ'd the shooter. I think he was right to do so.

Thanks again to all who have replied so far. I'm learning a lot.

frayluisfan

Example 1.

the bad is on you for assumming, the bad is on your friend who did not explain... but most of all, unless you were the first shooter, what were you doing not watching every other shooter on your squad before you? Didn't your club have some sort of a new shooter orientation? this is completely unreasonable thing to happen. Ie... if you have an RO watching your gun, why would you think it is ok to go downrange and load your gun by yourself? Has nothing to do with 180, and everything to do with listening and following directions. In any case, RM should of been called.

Example 2.

"I think he was right to do so. "

there is no think. Clearly a huge safety issue and was absolutely without a doubt a DQ. Nothing to think about.

Maybe we take safety a bit seriously around our local clubs, but it irritates the shit out of me that it seems so many other clubs use USPSA safety rules as guidelines and choose when to DQ a shooter, and choose to ignore what in their minds is "minor" stuff and only enforce a DQ when the shooter lets one go. In my eyes, when that round goes off, it is wayyyyyyyy too late.

Part of the reason I got into, and stayed shooting USPSA, and as heavily involved as I am now is because of the impeccable safety record. It is so safe because of the rules. Don't mess with the rules, and absolutely not the safety rules.

Edit: Driving 3 hours, or a 5 hour flight does not relieve you of common sense. It does not mean you can ignore the rules.

To answer your question, Maxsim, no, there was no "new shooter orientation", and there was no run-down of any of USPSA's rules. There was no RO watching my gun, and no explanation of any standard protocols. Why do you assume that a brand new (to USPSA) shooter would pick up this kind of thing on the first stage? Have you forgotten the nerves and sensory overload you exprienced at your first match? Some things that we take for granted as "basic" or "obvious" are only basic or obvious because that's what we've been taught, and what we have seen reinforced over and over. And the driving 3 hours reference in my post was not meant as an excuse for "ignor[ing] the rules." In order to ignore rules, one must first be made aware of them. I was totally unaware of the rule. Maybe you should step back a minute and take a deep breath before you assume that I ignored/disregarded instructions.

Still the issue is, did you not watch any other shooters in your squad as to how and what they were doing?

In any case, if you are going to your first match, you better know the general rules, not just show up and wing it.

My first match, I had an experienced shooter, like you did, tell me how things went and I watched everyone else. The first things out of my mouth were...

1. What are the rules?

2. What will get my DQ'ed?

At our local clubs, we have all new shooters go through a brief orientation, and then we also run a newbie class once or twice a year, especially with all the new people that my forum is getting into the sport.

USPSA was my first gun competition, so when I went to IDPA, I did not assume, I asked.

In any case, it is up to you to know the rules. No one is going to win their first match, and the number one concern should be safety, and number two is watching other shooters. I don't believe you did either, as if you did, you would not of gotten dq'ed gotten a warning for doing something really stupid.

The only excuse you can give is "It was my first match and I was the first shooter."

Where were you when every other shooter went ahead of you? Did you not watch what they were doing?

[Poppa Bear]

Still the issue is, did you not watch any other shooters in your squad as to how and what they were doing?

In any case, if you are going to your first match, you better know the general rules, not just show up and wing it.

My first match, I had an experienced shooter, like you did, tell me how things went and I watched everyone else. The first things out of my mouth were...

1. What are the rules?

2. What will get my DQ'ed?

At our local clubs, we have all new shooters go through a brief orientation, and then we also run a newbie class once or twice a year, especially with all the new people that my forum is getting into the sport.

USPSA was my first gun competition, so when I went to IDPA, I did not assume, I asked.

In any case, it is up to you to know the rules. No one is going to win their first match, and the number one concern should be safety, and number two is watching other shooters. I don't believe you did either, as if you did, you would not of gotten dq'ed gotten a warning for doing something really stupid.

The only excuse you can give is "It was my first match and I was the first shooter."

Where were you when every other shooter went ahead of you? Did you not watch what they were doing?

At our club even if the shooter is very experienced we never let a new to the range shooter go first for the first couple of stages just so that they can get an idea of how we operate. They are also given the option of never going first if that is their desire.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Poppa Bear

[frayluisfan]

Poppa Bear and Rupie: The club where I now shoot has a mandatory 1 hour clinic for new shooters. It's given right before each match. Until you attend the clinic, you don't shoot at that range, period. They are also very good about shepherding newbies through the stages, making sure they are mentored the first couple of matches, and making sure that ROs know who the new shooters in the squad are. This is all very comforting to me as a fairly new competitor, and is something I would encourage all clubs to consider adopting. It takes a lot of the intimidation out of the first couple matches, and helps people who are new to USPSA feel a lot more at ease. After a few matches, my confidence built enough that I feel more comfortable, rather than just nervous.

The first match I shot, which I referred to in a previous post, was quite overwhelming. Trying to watch other people's technique, scratching my head about equipment other shooters were using, etc. etc. produced sensory overload pretty quickly.

One other thought. Newbs like me are naturally more prone to making mistakes. If that happens, even if you have to send me home, I'm cool with that. But a patient, detailed explanation of how the rule works and why it must be enforced makes it easier to swallow. Jumping all over Newb's case, and ripping him a new one...well, that doesn't exactly enhance the learning process. And it certainly doesn't grow the sport, or make people want to come back next time.

In this sport, as in other I've competed in, it's apparent that some people's behavior contributes to the growth of the sport, while others chase prospective competitors away.

[Canuck223]

It is the clubs responsibility In my Opinion to make sure no one ever touches a gun at your event that hasn't gone through a new shooter briefing, with all commands, basic safety stuff etc. Then they should assign these people if they didn't come with experienced friends to someone to help them through the day. There is way to much going on to not help new shooters if you want them to be safe, enjoy themselves and come back next month.

It's stories like this that make me take stock of how it works in Canada. Here we have a course to take before we start shooting IPSC. I've waffled back and forth on if it's truly needed, since other corners of the universe seem to exist fine without it.

[Canuck223]

Only once have I ever had to DQ a guy and regretted doing so. Not because the guy hadn't earned it, but because it was a predictable result of the courses design.

It was a moving vehicle stage. The shooter was perched at the back of a pickup truck dressed up as a half track. The stage was fixed time, (the driver simply steered the course foot off the gas at idle).

The problem was the course was a serpentine path. The targets were shot as they appeared, and naturally shooters would scan in the path of the curve.

Nobody anticipated the 6' 5" competitor locking his toes into the sandbags and anchoring his beltline to the tailgate. On the tightest curve, his muzzle was 15-20 degrees past the 180. nearly pointing at the safety table.

[reichebrown]

I had to DQ a young shooter once. It was a gun on the table start and the shooter just sat down and took his gun out without instruction. It was my first DQ and it sucked that it was a young shooter. The kid took it like a man though and I don't think he will make that mistake again. Now if only some of the adults I shoot with could take penalties like him.