2004 Multigun Nationals

[bgary]

Since this was the first-ever big USPSA multi-gun match, this is a great time to give feedback to the Board of Directors about what worked, and what can be improved.

Just as Mike Voigt did on the range, I'd like to open a discussion here, especially from among the shooters who were there.

What did you like? What did you hate? What would you change for next time?

Thanks,

Bruce

[uscbigdawg]

1. Drop EZWinScore. Use a time plus penalty scoring system, if only for 3 Gun. This allows fore changing target values, allowing for time bonuses in addition to points only for targets, etc.

2. Educate CRO's and RO's on 3-Gun. There were issues with CRO's not pre-loading shotguns REPEATED direction to do so from the MD and RM. Too, there is a lack of understanding of the firearms that are used in competition by the RO's and can lead to the use of unsafe and/or illegal equipment.

3. Some how, educate shooters on how to handle multiple guns and specifically how to unload their firearms. There was more than one occassion this weekend where I just shook my head with people being stupid with their guns and wanted to argue about it.

I am fully aware that USPSA cannot make these changes due to its responsibility to IPSC. However, if USPSA wants to keep up or compete with the likes of SMM3G and RM3G, there needs to be some fairly hefty changes to the scoring system. It is old and doesn't work with 3-Gun as it stands.

Rich

[wgnoyes]

I guess I don't see how changing which scoring program/system is used can speed up a match, especially when you have professional 10-key operators driving stats, as I presume were at this match.

[Sterling White]

1. Drop EZWinScore. Use a time plus penalty scoring system, if only for 3 Gun. This allows fore changing target values, allowing for time bonuses in addition to points only for targets, etc.

I agree with this now after having shot the MGM Ironman. Its too easy to game a stage and forego targets at long distances, punch a hale mary shot at each target, take the misses, and finish in the top percentages.

There should be a reward and penalty system in place to encourage the shooter to engage all targets even at the expense of time...aka "neutralizing" the target. A thought that came to me on the flight home was the airplane stage....all of the targets outside of the plane should have been taken outside of the plane before entering - both steel and paper....also engaging targets (those outside) thru ports within the plane, or windows, didn't make much sense.

Guess if I had a vote then I would like to see fewer stages, 10-12, with a higher round counts for each gun on each stage, reholstering the pistol allowed, all shotgun rounds carried on the body without staging them along the course of fire, and more steel.

It was a hard match and a good start to multi gun....would have enjoyed it more under different circumstance. Had a death in the family a day before. Wanted to tell those that I shot with and the ones that allowed me to shoot thru - thank you.

Sterling

[outerlimits]

sterling...was sorry to hear about what happened...we were on the same squad the 1st day. that must have been tough.

i agree on those stages that just begged to blow off the long range stuff. tommy t figured that out on stage 15, took the 4 misses and his HF was double everyone else. i wanted to shoot the damn targets though.

problem with the multi-gun stages was that in many cases, the rifle experts got hosed due to the fact the other aspects of the stage were other guns. oh well, same folks at the top, of course.

there were a high number of folks that got stung for not having a clear weapon....

[oddjob]

I enjoyed the match and so did my son. The stages were a good mixture of tough & easy courses. I did not have a problem with the multi-gun stages. This may be because I have shot multi-gun stages before (and got D.Q.'ed). Luckily I didn't DQ on this match.

I have no comment about the EZ score because I'm a computer idiot.

My only real constructive comment is along the lines of what Rich said about educating the R/O's. I was the last shooter on one stage and the first shooter on the very next stage. Well it takes a while to get 3 guns ready and the R/O stated to me that I should have been ready immediately and not take 5 minutes to get stuff together. I did not say a word .........just agreeing with the R/O and not wanting to start a discussion there delayings things even more. The same R/O then tells my friend later if he forgot to take his "Stupid Pills" after making a small error during the course. I will admit it was only one R/O who treated us like that. The rest were hard working, fun loving people. Some of the R/O's not seem to understand 3 gun difficulties with shooters while others (like Rich) knew exactley what to do.

More thought on the multi gun "procedure" for loading and clearing. I realize this can only be done on a case by case (course by course) basis.

All in all it was a good, fun time.

[Gary Stevens]

Not being familiar with the course, but how can you take 60 points in penalties, minus 40 for the misses and 20 points you didn't get, and double the hit factor?

My brain is running slow tonight and can't figure this one out.

[ErikW]

I could write a book the size of Bill Clinton's. Some things off the top of my head...

The standard range commands are but a start. For multigun, I would precede LAMR with Shotgun, Rifle, or Handgun. Most of the shooters told to LAMR either questioned the empty chamber start or went ahead and chambered (or tried to) a round. By Sunday, my initial range command went something like this: "At this table, with the shotgun, make ready." (Because the shotgun was pre-loaded in the ready condition.) It was not possible to run my 3 gun stage (two pre-placed long guns and a hot-holstered handgun) with a single LAMR command. There were many questions and corrections. "Can I put one on the carrier?" "Can I leave the safety off?" "The pistol starts chambered, right?" "Hands at sides?"

Empty chamber starts were more hassle than needed, with hardly any additional safety afforded by this ready condition. The only benefit I can see is for situations in which a moving shooter grabs the gun from the table while moving, which can get the muzzle near the 180. An empty chamber makes it a little safer for a 180 breaker with his finger in the trigger guard.

Shooters needed all three guns on my stage. So when they walked to the RO, a shooter wore a holstered handgun and held a long gun in each hand. In many cases, the RO had to take and hold one long gun while the other was being made ready or unloaded. I said, "I've got it" or asked, "Have you got it?" during transfers for a little insurance in case of a mis-handled gun. There were also third-party "gun bearers" involved despite the lack of clear rules about them handling guns.

It was very common for squads (and sometimes shooters and ROs) to forget about the abandoned gun uprange and move forward of it before it was cleared and put away. The closer to a berm, the better. And the more props preventing movement in front of the gun, the better. And the on-deck shooter would frequently begin his walk-through while we were clearing guns downrange, putting himself within arm's length of the abandoned handgun on the table. A stage really needs a "charge line" for the squad to stay behind until the range is clear.

[George]

Howdy Bruce,

Looks like you guys had a heck of a week up there. I got blown out of the match when I ripped my leg open on a truck liftgate the Friday before. I just got back from having the sutures removed and can now walk a bit. To that end, I would like to see all of the stages re-designed so they can be shot standing in one place, then I could have competed this year

I laugh now, but that’s not what I was doing when I heard I was hobbled for a couple weeks. I wanted to be there so bad it hurt more than my leg did

But seriously Bruce. I may not have been there, but I am certain of one thing that was confirmed by reports from my friends, the match would have run a bit better with 2-3 less stages. When I saw the published squad schedule and figured out what the turn time requirements were I realized the schedule was gonna rush the shooters and trash the RO staff.

I also had reports from buddies about very inconsistent range commands and other RO things that made me realize there was another item for the post-mortem team to take a good hard look at.

The rest of the reports I got were basically great match, love the multi-gun stuff and so on.

It looked like there were quite a few DQ’s which might have something to do with long days and in-consistent range commands etc. The DQ ratio really was a bit too high IMHO.

3gun is one of the most incredible shooting sports going and USPSA recognizing multi-gun like this is a momentous thing.

All in all though, I think we ought to give Monte, Bruce, all of the match staff who worked their collective butts off a big THANK YOU!!!

--

Geoffrey (wish I was there) Linder

TY-11141

[SVI4ME]

Ok here is my take.....

1. Less stages more rounds with mulitgun. I was there from 9 at night and back AT the range at 6:30. I realize so did everybody else but it was tough while competing. And I was quite WOOPED come sunday morning when the alarm went off at 5:00.

2. RO/CRO have compasion. The first time many of the shooters EVER shot multigun. And I understand we needed to be prodid alone. Oddjob was told to HURRY UP while we were already 2 hours behind. Ask before slamming someone. I was told if I took stupid pills. But I let it pass so I didn't start anything. I would rather get my procedural than be called a dumbshit. If you don't have constructive comments, shut the hell up. I was tired too. My hat goes off to ALLLLLLLL the Cro/Ro's. 7am to 9pm, no thanks. But from me to all the officials...........THANK YOU for a great match.

3. I didn't mind the unloaded rifle or pistol but we have to do something about the shotguns. I miss alot so I want plenty of rounds. Takes a while to unload a Benelli shotgun with 3 rounds in the tube. And if you miss one bye bye for a 225.00 match.

That's it....... I am still licking my wounds from falling on the trailer stage. Messed up a brand new 30 round mag too. Still had a great time.

Thanks to all involved.

[Sterling White]

Not being familiar with the course, but how can you take 60 points in penalties, minus 40 for the misses and 20 points you didn't get, and double the hit factor?

Its actually pretty easy to figure...

For giggles lets say that on a stage there are a possible 160 pts.

Shooter 1 runs the stage in 80 seconds with 160 pts....HF is 2.

Shooter 2 runs the stage in 44.44 seconds with 100 pts after penalties and deductions....HF is 2.25

Shooter 2 gets the 6 misses but no fte because the targets were engaged.

These are the type of things we were talking about at the match. To do something like this takes a lot of discipline and a great internal clock. Discipline - allowing only 1-3 quick shots per target and then move....and internal clock - calculating the time to engage all targets and then executing it so to hit the mark....it was a flaw in stage design that allowed this to happen. The reason that I like a penalty system of seconds added for targets not neutralized. Just some thoughts.

Have heard some about the pistol dq's....again my reason for a shooter being allowed to go back into the holster with a hot gun. The risk would then be with our speed holsters and retaining the gun while we ran to finish a stage....my ult. ghost did the job at the Ironman but it took a lot of mental focus to lock the lever into the forward position for positive retainment.

[ErikW]

Long range rifle steel needs to be worth more points. Ten might not be enough. Maybe even let the course designer and match director determine the value, within limits. When long range rifle is mixed with faster targets, there has to be a point balance to make the LRR targets worth engaging. Under the current system, this means more LRR targets and fewer hoser targets. I shoot the truck bed stage Thursday and it was obvious without even doing calculations that I should forget about setting up unsupported 130 yard shots on US Poppers with iron sights and throw a round at each while leaving the truck bed.

[Neil Beverley]

Hi All

I'm pleased that you have, in the main, enjoyed the match.

Well done to the guys at the top and well done to the others for surviving the match ! Commiserations to those that didn't.

For future reference:

2004 Rifle and Shotgun rules:

9.4.1.1 In order to recognize a difficult shot in a course of fire, a small number of metal and/or frangible targets may score double value for a hit. The use of such targets is restricted to not more than 10% of the total number of targets in the match. Their use must have been approved during the course review process and they must be clearly identified in the written stage briefing.

9.4.4 Each miss will be penalized twice the value of the maximum scoring hit available on that target, except in the case of disappearing targets (see Rules 9.2.4.5 and 9.9.2).

By applying these rules a miss will cost you minus 30 points and that shifts the balance dramatically. In the example discussed by gmw2b 6 misses would virtually wipe the stage. Virtually but not quite because if 6 targets are scored double then for the same number of targets on the stage the max points goes up to 190.

Actually I think he meant to say 4 misses? Even with 4 misses on double value targets the score would drop significantly:

150 points scored minus 80 penalty points so 70/44.44 = 1.58 HF,

compared to

190 points / 80 seconds = 2.38 HF

A stage (results) difference of 64 points.

The rules above were introduced specifically to tackle stages like this.

[uscbigdawg]

I guess I don't see how changing which scoring program/system is used can speed up a match, especially when you have professional 10-key operators driving stats, as I presume were at this match.

See Neil's example. The scoring program doesn't allow for added value targets. I suggest that the BOD visit either SMM3G and/or RM3G for themselves and see the scoring methods and efficiency for themselves (I know Mike and Don will be there but the other members should be there as well to see...and do it on your own dime not USPSA's). Oh, and I never said it would make the match faster. I just said it would be better. Much more spectator friendly (television opportunity?) and easier for competitors to track themselves against the field and one another.

Too, fewer stages and higher round counts do not make matches shorter. Yes you have fewer stages, but the per shooter time goes up by being on stage longer during engagement, scoring and resetting. In the end, it's probably a wash.

I have no idea why the 'old guard' cling to a dead piece of software and/or are so inflexible in adjusting it to meet the needs of the sport in which they provide. If you are unwilling to change it, consider then going back to the single gun format of the US3GN. The matches would be simpler to score (for staff) and you can be done really fast, as there will not be the number of shooters as there were this year. Multi-gun and the addition of Tactical division have brought in both 3-gun "specialists" and folks from other disciplines as well as additional LE and military personnel.

Just my two cents.

Rich

[Chuck Anderson]

I think the range commands could use a bit of work. By my last stage the LAMR command had apparently been reduced to, "You can play with your mags". I had to ask if this meant LAMR. He gave a similar command for the pistol. I also received a couple of oddball other commands. In a match with such a high number of DQ's I think that anything that can be done to make things more consistent would help.

Regarding the EZ WinScore scoring system. The match actually finished up close to the scheduled time. There was about a three hour delay getting the results finished, and I have no idea if they're right. The results at the match are different than the results on the USPSA site.

[Chris]

Overall, I think it was a good match for the first time USPSA has run a

multigun match. I know there were initial issues with stages designs and

scoring concerns but everything seemed to work out in the end.

I think everyone agrees that pistol 'A' zone only targets at 25+ yards

really sucks, espically shooting at it around corners. Score it as a

pistol stage or give us a US Popper to shoot at.

Lots of confusion with loaded guns and empty chambers, I could never keep

it straight from stage to stage. I don't know if there is a RO meeting

before or during the match, but maybe its a good idea. It would give them

an opportunity to see what others are doing and ask questions and share

solutions to issues or problems.

Other than getting a water truck for next time, thats all I can think

about.

[wgnoyes]

The scoring program doesn't allow for added value targets.

But...it does. You can have 10pt steel now in long gun stages. We do it all the time at South River Gun Club. We did it at the Area 6 3-Gun.

If you want a mix of 5pt and 10pt steel/frangible targets (not recommended but possible), that's more cumbersome but the workaround is that you define the 5pt'ers as paper targets and just score them as A's or nothing.

ezws is hardly "dead" or "inflexible". I've scored matches for 12 years and seen dos ezscore, dos mss, winmss, and ezwinscore (i.e., the region-approved scoring systems). ezws beats out all the rest hands down, no contest.

Bn

[uscbigdawg]

The A Zone only is the problem on multiple levels.

Stage crew: You're asking stage crew to paint how many targets for a major match so that only the upper and lower A-zones are available. The number of targets on say a shotgun stage with slugs, is huge. Probably after every squad you would want to change targets if the shots were within 20 yards. Anything beyond that now you have lower classed shooters, probably barely hitting the target, much less getting it into the A-zones. Why can't the B-D zones be available for slug shots (I know they can, but it requires some pretty clever scoring system manipulation)?

CRO/RO crews: Additional tracking of which targets (on the score sheet versus the stage) are "regular" vs. added value targets. If you have a stage with rifle paper with full scoring available and shotgun slug targets with A-zone only, oh and let's throw in pistol targets with full scoring available, that would be a nightmare for scoring. I can just see T1-T5 are pistol targets. T6-T10 are A-zone only. T11-T15 are full scoring. Every stage to simplify the management of this will be shoot a bank of targets. Clear gun. Go through doorway in the wall (that's a bay wide). Retrieve second gun and engage second gun's targets. Clear gun. Go through doorway or shoot through port in second wall at that gun's targets. Fun.

Stats: We all know that we can just call it double or triple value and mark it as a hit on the score sheet. Stats though needs to be sure to value that target (or targets) on that stage correctly.

EZWinscore is good (at best) for USPSA pistol. For multi-gun scoring and stage design it's a headache. You have to design stages around the scoring system to a greater degree than say time plus. As Erik said (and I haven't done the math yet) at double value, the rifle steel on the stage was questionable if it was worth it. That's purely a scoring issue and not a stage design issue. The stage is what it is. If by the math it doesn't work to shoot at something, that's a scoring problem.

Oh well. That's why SMM3G and RM3G has the CONSISTENT numbers that they have and sell out months before the match date with 50-60 on a waiting list.

Rich

P.S.

ezws is hardly "dead" or "inflexible".

I never said EZWS was inflexible, I said that the BOD and/or whoever is in charge of "development" of the scoring software is inflexible. I can make the scoring do whatever I want it to do. It's simple mathematics. Whether or not the value of the targets stays within the "Red Book" is another issue. I can't have double steel on certain stages, because if that's the case, as I recall, all the steel on the stage has to be double value. That's not what we're trying to accomplish. I can't have 15-20 point steel. I can't have time bonus targets (although we do it all the time ). It's just not fun designing stages around such things.

[Neil Beverley]

I've seen 3 or 4 comments now which raise the issue of empty chamber starts.

For clarity, and based on the 2004 Shotgun and Rifle rules, I would advise that the default is that the safety catch (to be applied) is only a requirement for a loaded chamber start. If the chamber is empty then the safety is optional at the competitors discretion. Please see below.

(SG) 8.1.1.1 Loaded (Option 1): magazine filled and fitted (if applicable), chamber(s) loaded, hammer and/or sear cocked and safety catch engaged (if the shotgun is designed to have one).

(SG) 8.1.1.2 Loaded (Option 2): magazine filled and fitted (if applicable), chamber(s) empty and the action closed.

(SG) 8.1.1.3 Unloaded (Option 3): fixed magazine must be empty, detachable magazines removed and chamber(s) must be empty. The action/bolt may be open or closed.

However, please note the rule below which gives scope for an organiser to insist on the safety catch being applied if specifically stated in the written briefing. ROs can't make it up as they go.

8.1.3 Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different to those stated above. In such cases, the required ready condition must be clearly stated in the written stage briefing.

[uscbigdawg]

Neil,

We would love to start with all guns loaded. However, isn't there a rule about being more than a meter (or meter and a half, can't remember) away from a loaded firearm? If so, on all the stages, in a loaded condition, competitor's would have been DQ'ed.

For the record, I'm for starting with all guns loaded, safeties on, etc. I'm also for grounding loaded guns so long as they are pointed in a 'safer' direction (i.e. towards a berm or in such a way that competitor and RO's will not cross the muzzle).

Thanks for the info.

Rich

[mactiger]

There's going to have to be some thought on renewing membership. I'm definitely not RO'ing Nationals again.

Rich

Why not?

Troy

[rtr]

I don't mean to hijack this thread, at my local 3 gun matches we often have a loading area for shotgun stages, it is located right next to the berm and well behind the actual shooting area, the on deck shooter is allowed to load his shotgun (tube and chamber) under the supervision of another shooter, the gun then stays there pointed into the berm (and supervised) and is then transported to the start line once the range is clear with the muzzle always pointed into the berm or downrange once the range is cleared. Is this not really legal per USPSA rules?

[uscbigdawg]

Troy,

I love the game, but the organization and how it takes far too much to reach simple decisions. Rulebooks should address three things. Safety, Equipment and scoring.

I hate to bring up the same animal, but IMGA's rules are 4-5 pages. That's it.

Safety: Don't point your guns at yourself, fellow competitors, RO's and spectators. Handle guns in the safe area. Done.

Equipment: If you're going to shoot X Division these are the rules. Done.

Scoring: Here's how we score. Done.

The fact that we have to have regimented start and finish commands or you get a re-shoot is ridiculous. That commands are updated in IPSC because it's the RO's fault that the gun isn't empty is ridiculous. FYI. If I leave a round in a gun and it goes bang when I don't want it to....IT'S MY FAULT!!!

IPSC's rulebook is far too convoluted and you could probably rip out 2/3's of the pages and it would still have too much info. There is a ton of info that is meant to address the lowest common denominator and that's a shame. People with the responsibility to own firearms should know better and after RO'ing this weekend, it is apparent that there are a few that need to hang out with some Boy Scouts, because I've seen 5 year olds with better firearms handling.

I see a lot of people in our sport that make decisions that are either scope locked on pistol only (i.e. don't have a F'ing clue about 3-gun) and/or envoke their own personal issues when it comes to rules management rather than listening or appealing to the membership for what they want. I know membership is by and large stagnent when it comes to participation. However, when you get it, from forums like this or other means (come up and tap me on the shoulder) there needs to be some listening happening. Heck, as smooth and as popular as SMM3G is, they still insert questionaires into their match bags and solicit input from competitors. USPSA has its source for information, if only from the Top 16. These guys have been there and done that. Get their input.

RO'ing this weekend was fun as I had a good crew on my stage and for the most part enthusiastic and upbeat competitors (except for the guy that swept me three times with empty guns and torched a round off just past 3 meters clearing his pistol ). Just don't think I'll do it again, as the level of competitors in USPSA 3-Gun, just don't have the fundamental gun handling skills or respect for firearms as I've seen in other places. On top of that, the jackass'es want to argue it (like the ass who torched a round in the side berm at about 179 degrees and did so with the pistol upside down...I was looking well into the magwell. I advised him not to do that again, and he wanted to debate 180 directions. I pointed out that he didn't break 180, rather the manner in which he cleared his pistol was unsafe.).

I'm do to get my CRO status in September. I probably will get it, for the sake of having it, but doubt I'll ever RO again.

Rich

[uscbigdawg]

rtr,

We were pre-loading this weekend as well (except for the CRO next door to us, that despite being told by the MD and RM to do so, refused and forced my crew to sit for a minimum of 2 hours per day waiting on his squads).

This is "legal" as far as I can tell.

Rich

[davidwiz]

This is somewhat related to this topic, if not, moderator pls move to appropriate area. IPSC/USPSA is one of, if not the only, shooting sport were the members have a direct say in how the sport is run. We, the members, elect the Area Director and President. There are a few other shooting sports that I can think of that claim to be democratic and inclusive, but lock-out the participants when it comes time to make the rules and the direction of that particular sport.

USCBigDawg, pls don't go. As others have said, this was the first time that this match was run. There are bound to be some things that didn't work out. Hopefully, the people running the match will listen to these constructive comments and make the appropriate corrections.

As for you witnessing poor gun handling skills, be thankful that you as an USPSA RO are allowed to do something about it by DQ'ing the shooter. There are other shooting sports where that is frowned upon because then it wouldn't be "fun" for the competitor.

As for the rude RO behaviour that people have recounted here, I do hope that you relayed your concerns to the RM and to the NROI. ROs who do that give all of us ROs a bad name and should not be allowed to RO again.

-David