2004 Multigun Nationals

[George]

Any suggestions will be welcomed

Yes, listen to what Kurt just said here and in the other US3G thread.

This is the guy you want to have wanting to shoot your matches and I am afraid we did not get a good grade this semester. It would be a big shame if we didn’t sit down and talk to this customer and listen to what he is saying. But I guess another Level I NROI seminar will do a better job of bringing in the paying customers.

We had 210 plus shooters at this years US3G, which is the best attendance at a US3G yet (there would’ve been 1 more if I hadn’t left a significant chunk of my leg on a truck power gate the week before). The real trick here will be to learn from every single thing that happened. If it was negative, reverse it. If it was positive, reinforce it. Businesses that do that keep customers. Businesses that stop on a dime and leave nine cents change (anyone remember where that came from?) are usually successful ones.

BTW, as far as satisfied repeat customers go I just checked and my check to the RM3G just cleared, which means I’m going to Raton this August. WooHoo, See ya all there for some 3 gun.

--

Regards,

[BDH]

As for cheating I mearly rigged a wind ventury to the end of the tube and let the afternoon gail force winds do the rest  

It wasn't so much the venturi, it was that somehow you filtered all the dust that was blowing around, and only sucked in the shotgun shells.......

I hope to see that again, and maybe someone can bring a high speed camera so I can actually SEE it.....

[mactiger]

Let's get a few things straight.

First, I think Kurt and many others have some good ideas to contribute to USPSA 3 Gun. I've never said differently. However, USPSA is constrained by their rules, which are different from all the other 3 gun stuff out there, except where they just copy our rules (as in "USPSA safety rules apply"). I see that Kurt has the freedom to change or "bend" his rules on the fly. USPSA unfortunately does not have that freedom.

Secondly, I've said that USPSA needs to either change to meet the needs of its customers or get out of the 3 gun business all together. Either way, from what I'm hearing here, this year's match didn't cut it, at least not on the level you should expect for a National Championship match.

Third, this was a Michael Voigt/Monte Leveaux production. Not a function of the USPSA board of directors. Comments and suggestions for improvement should be addressed to them, as I don't believe either one reads this forum. Perhaps this multi-gun stuff was a bit premature, because I don't think they had the time to take advantage of Kurt Miller's experience. (Don't feel left out, Kurt, they didn't ask anybody else, either.)

Fourth, while an NROI seminar certainly won't solve all the problems that this match seems to have experienced, adding long gun information to the seminars certainly won't hurt. It seems that one of the primary complaints was ignorance of the rules on the part of the staff. Educating range officers is one of the things that I do, along with the rest of the NROI instructor corps. It probably won't bring in the paying customers, but it might help to keep the ones we get.

Listening to Kurt won't help with that, though, as we have to teach our rules. But, as a member of the IPSC rifle rules committee, I'll be happy to seek his and others input and put it before the committee.

Fifth, this match was run under 4 disparate sets of rules, as far as I can tell: 14th ed. Pistol, 2004 Shotgun, 2004 Rifle, and the provisional multi-gun rules. None of these were distributed to the membership in a hard copy format prior to the match, and I'd be willing to bet that most of the members didn't even know they were in effect. So, it's not surprising that the staff was ignorant (or the shooters for that matter.)

Bottom line, and I've said it before: it was premature to announce and try to run this year's USPSA 3 Gun Nationals as a multi-gun match, since there were no rules to support it, nor people with multi-gun experience to run it. But that's just my opinion.

Troy

[George]

Step back from the trees, see the big green object come into focus, there, that’s it, the forest.

Just doesn’t get it doesn’t even begin to cut it here.

Monte and Mike brought true Multi-gun shooting to USPSA for the first time this year. I will go to any US3G that Mike and Monte put on again and I will keep going back to any match that gives me what I am looking for, namely the chance to shoot rifle, shotgun and pistol all at the same time and I will continue to put my money where the multi-gun stages are

--

Regards,

[ErikW]

An excerpt from my e-mail to SVI4ME about being rushed on a grueling schedule....

Being rushed sucks. The RO/shooters were trying to shoot 14 of the 15 stages Thursday. It was ridiculous. I think I was first on bays 2, 3, and 4 before I called bullshit. The best thing to do is set an order and rotate through it so nobody does last-to-first stages. Don't let the RO's shuffle the deck; tell them you have an order before you hand in your stickers or scoresheets. We need much more time to determine the stage gun and gear requirements, reconfigure belts for that gear, clean magazines, and load magazines. Only then we are ready for the stage briefing and 5 minute walk-through. Five minutes is pretty short for some stages. In hindsight, what I would have done at that match is get our shit together before arriving at the stages so we'd be ready and unrushed, no matter how hurried the ROs were.

Y'know, I don't think the competitors gave a rat's ass about the new rules. They just wanted to shoot. The only problem with the rules was the shotgun 8.1.1.2 capacity restrictions, of which nobody was aware. The RM came by early on and explained to us the consequences of this rule and how we should handle it, and I assume he did so for every stage requiring a shotgun as the second or third gun. Remember that the empty chamber, loaded one round less than division capacity maximum thing was for pre-positioned shotguns when you started with the rifle or handgun. When you started with the SG, you could have a round chambered and be full at 9 or 11. Don't make the mistake of calling these situations bad ROing, as they are perfectly proper.

[mactiger]

George, it appears that not only are we not on the same page, we aren't even in the same book.

Have a nice day.

Troy

[Sterling White]

Secondly, I've said that USPSA needs to either change to meet the needs of its customers

I'll second this!

Third, this was a Michael Voigt/Monte Leveaux production. Not a function of the USPSA board of directors. Comments and suggestions for improvement should be addressed to them, as I don't believe either one reads this forum.

I hope that your voice is not the voice of the BOD because if it is, there are some real problems. Michael has some good ideas and I feel like his AD's should work with him to make it happen.

Perhaps this multi-gun stuff was a bit premature, because I don't think they had the time to take advantage of Kurt Miller's experience. (Don't feel left out, Kurt, they didn't ask anybody else, either.)

I started 3 gunning just last year, this being my 3rd major 3-gun match with about a dozen or so club level 3-gun matches. Having said that multi-gun stages are the way to go provided the staff running match has the logistics down (pre-loading...etc).

At the MGM ironman....the RO's coached shooters thru huge stages. In my oppinion this provided the RO and shooter a thread to work together - some good chuckles at the end of each stage too.

One thing that I've been thinking about is the fun factor....what is it?

High round count multi-gun stages with coaching (if needed) , challenging shots, wide-open shots, moving, shooting and moving, lots of steel, a solid match format, squads big enough but small enough to get everything done, and a happy go-lucky match staff !

Guess it's feeling whooped at the end of the day with a smile!

3 cents!

[mactiger]

I hope that your voice is not the voice of the BOD because if it is, there are some real problems.

Nope. I'm only speaking for myself.

[bgary]

Kimel:

I would have expected the "august" USPSA to contact the othere XYZ 3-gun matches and GET A CLUE!!! I have been instrumental in puttng on " large" 3-gun matches for the last 5 years, matches that generated 200-250 shooters, and no one burned a path to my door, even after I made it clear that the knowledge was available. Since I am NOT one of the great NROI baptized, sanctified, ratified, It all falls on deaf ears. My mental picture is of a board member with both hands clamped over his ears saying " la la la la" as I try to tell him what to expect! I am not sure that there is a great big list of what to do, but there is a damn big one of what NOT to do, but I am sure you guys will figure that out on your own, as it seems that you sure don't want any knowledgable help. KURT A. MILLER

My mental picture is of a board member with both hands clamped over his ears saying " la la la la" as I try to tell him what to expect!

Speaking as a member of the Board of the "august" USPSA, I'm sorry you feel that way... for a number of reasons:

1) I *did* go to the experts when writing the provisional USPSA multi-gun rules. I not only pored over the IMG, SMMG and SOF rules, I came here to the benos forums and asked the experts. Many of the things in the first cut of the Multipgun rules came straight out of these forums.

2) The rules are certainly not perfect, but... they are the best first cut I could do in the time that was available. Keep in mind (assuming you already know) that in March of this year, we had a dilemma - Monte had designed and Michael had approved a match that would have been totally illegal under the existing USPSA rules. The options were to either let our National Championships be an illegal match, or to try to slam some rules together to make the match work, for the good of the shooters. We chose "B". We never expected this first cut would be perfect. What we were going for was rules that would allow the match to happen, and allow us to see what worked and what didn't.

3) Having said that, fundamentally it is worth noting that USPSA is a different sport than IMG, SMM3G, RM3G, etc. USPSA (IPSC's) unique heritage is strongly rooted in the concept of balancing Speed, Accuracy and Power. All of the suggestions that I have seen for "improving" USPSA, do so at the cost of throwing out at least one of those things. That may or may not be the right thing to do... we'll look at it seriously, but we are not going to do it on a whim.

4) Also bear in mind that the USPSA rules have to work for more than one match, more than once a year. Whatever we put on paper has to work for both ends of the spectrum... the National Championships with NROI-trained ROs and staff, and the 5-shooter club match in the woods somewhere, where all they know is what the rulebook tells them. There are something like 400 clubs and over 5000 USPSA matches a year, including club, section, area and national-level matches. The huge *variety* in our matches is a large part of why our rulebook is as thick as it is, and why we have to be so careful when we change things.

5) More than anything else, though, what I would note here is that in the last 6 months you have seen more responsiveness from the USPSA Board, more willingness to change the sport according to member input, more flexibility in rules development, and more support for Multigun than there has EVER been before. If it is not enough for some, so be it. But it is *hardly* a picture of "hands clamped over our ears."

To those who have made constructive comments about what we're trying to do, thank you, I appreciate them, and believe me the Board is paying attention. To those who are GHPing (local term, stands for "going home pi$$ed") over what we haven't done... I think you're going to miss out on an exciting time for USPSA shooting, as a sport and an organization.

$.02

Bruce

USPSA Board member

[uscbigdawg]

Monte had designed and Michael had approved a match that would have been totally illegal under the existing USPSA rules.

FYI, multi-gun stages HAVE been done in USPSA 3-Gun Nationals in the past.

Rich

[bgary]

Yup. I was there (in stats). And, they were not legal.

And, it set a really bad precedent, on a number of levels, not the least of which was having the head of the IPSC rules committee in charge of a USPSA National Championship match that didn't comply with our own rules.

All of that is water under the bridge. The question in front of the Board *this* year was, do we want to have an illegal match again, or do we want to do something about it. Clearly, the 3-gunners (and I am one) really enjoy Multigun, so we took a stab at bringing it into the USPSA game.

Not to drag you into the black hole of USPSA politics, but I think it is fair to note that there are some conflicts built into the USPSA organizational structure. One of those is

-- The Board has responsibility for the maintaining and revising the rules,

has authority over the budget, and the bylaws

but

-- The President has authority over all decisions regarding the Nationals.

So.... in theory the President can say "I'm going to run the National match with whatever rules I want, and I am going to spend all the money in the checking account doing it." And, in theory, the Board can't do anything about it... except remove the President. That's obviously not a good outcome.

This spring, we (the Board) had a choice to make. Either let the match happen, knowing it is totally illegal, or find a way to "force" the President to run the match under the existing rules, or... find a way to make the match legal. We chose the latter. I - personally - wrote the multigun rules, because in my opinion if we had tried to do them by committee we would still be talking about them two years from now (so, please forgive me if I am sensitive to comments about Board members not doing anything...)

Anyway, bottom line is, the thing got done the wrong way in the past. We tried to do it a better way this year. I think that what happened on the ground last week in Reno was "more good" than an illegal match, and much "more good" than a traditional 3-separate-matches 3-gun tournament. But, that's just my opinion.

Bruce

[bgary]

Oh, and I forgot to add the punchline...

Yes, as someone commented earlier, I agree, the ADs should work better with the President.

I *also* think that goes both ways. The President can do a much better job of working with the ADs.

We have different responsibilities, and we are set up to be "checks and balances" for each other. If we all work together, we can not only avoid doing bad things, we might even get some good things done...

Bruce

[uscbigdawg]

I think that what happened on the ground last week in Reno was "more good" than an illegal match, and much "more good" than a traditional 3-separate-matches 3-gun tournament. But, that's just my opinion.

Absolutely. Mike, Monte and the crew in Reno (and those that helped the crew in Reno), deserve a huge thanks for putting this match on when a lot of folks were against it. See you guys in Raton.

Rich

[kellyn]

I guess I'll weigh in as well.

1) USPSA is a democratic organization unlike the benevelant dictatorships that run SMM3G (Herr Furbee), RM3G (Lords Kurt, Blaine, Eric, and Jimmy) and NA Tac (his excellency KyleL). So cut them some slack when it comes to making rules. I'm sure things would run more smoothly if Mike Voigt was declared Dictator but that's not going to happen so just accept the rancorous debates that go along with the democratic process. That being said the other organizations' matches do run more smoothly and have simpler rules so if we do elect Mike dictator, it should be for life.

2) Scoring. If I was dictator, I would impose the following scoring system for 3 Gun:

Each stage is worth 100 points. Each stage is scored time plus penalties. Fastest time wins the 100 points.

Either Target Neutralization system or the Enos style system (time added for points down) could be used to add penalties. I would modify the target neutralization as follows:

1 A hit or A/B hit with anything neutralizes a target

1 C hit with major rifle or slug neutralizes a target

2 hits anywhere else with anything else (major/minor rifle, major/minor pistol, slugs)

Failure to neutralize is +5 sec

2 mikes or failure to engage is +10 sec

No shoots are +10

3) Major rifle

Clearly there is a movt afoot to make .223 major. the rationale being 1) it's the most commonly used military rifle cartridge and 2) it would be easier to score. Well 9mm pistol is the most commonly available military pistol cartridge and I see no movt to make it major so #1 theory does not really fly with me. #2 does have some merit but I thought practical shooting was supposed to spurn development so I would major a seperate category. But I would lower the power factor so that the new 6.8 could make it with a standard load. My proposed scoring system of 1 C hit with a major rifle would also make .308s competitive.

4) Speed Unloading

I agree it's dangerous. I myself prefer to shoot shotguns dry or with rifles/pistols drop a mag and fire a SAFE shot into the berm or a target. I personally do not care for the machinations that go along with racking slides under stress (witness Jimmy's hand) but I also recognize that some shooters (including some very good ones) fire unsafe (yet not DQable) shots when unloading.

BUT dropping and abandoning loaded guns on tables has disadvantages as well. It is safe most of the time but under the stress of competition some shooters will simply toss their weapon down and one time one gun is going to go spinning off a table and go off when it hits the deck. IT WILL HAPPEN. Therefore some sort of container is necessary.

5) Multigun

USPSA gave the people what they asked for: multigun stages! But I think the pendulum swung too much the other way. Not every stage needs to be multigun. Only 3 stages (one of which was thrown out) involved the use of 1 gun. I would reduce the multigun stages to no more than half the match. That would alleviate the time it takes to deal with with clearing multigun stages and the issue of how to transition between gun.

6) Tactical class

No one has mentioned the success of the Tactical class. Here at it's very first 3 Gun Nationals, it's the biggest class! Despite the bitching and moaning by some on how the class was enacted, it is a great success!

7) Stages

I thought the stages were challenging, thoughtful, and fun. This was by far the most difficult 3 Gun Nats I'd ever shot. IMHO this is a good thing. I think KurtM is spoiled by the quality of his local monthly matches.

8) DQs

This is supposed to be a national level event so know your equipment before you even sign up.

9) KurtM

Is the god of shotgun loading. But so is Jeff Cramblit!

10) Erik Lund

Someone posted that Erik should have taken second in Tactical b/c Benny Hill was not penalized for his 2 misses on stage 8 and Erik should have won stage 8. After looking, this is true! Sorry, Erik. I'm glad we both took the same thing off the prize table. On the other hand, they threw out the ONE stage that I BURNED down (Stage 9).

11) ROs

Thanks for all your help and hard work. That's a tough job to RO. You have to deal with shooters of all skill levels and temperments and even the occasional cheater. You had to deal with new rules. On the other hand, I think Greg Coker from North American Tac needs to run an RO school. For some reason, USPSA gets a lot more hostile ROs than the other 3 gun matches. Kurt and I should never have had to litigate with ROs to get fresh paint on long range steel. This is the Nationals and every squad (especially those with Limited rifle shooters) should have freshly painted targets. A national championship should not be decided by the fact that an RO does not want to paint.

That's all I have for now.

[kurtm]

OK Bruce, I see what you mean. From the USPSA board perspective, you guys were changing at warp speed. When you put it in context I see the problems you face. Don't think that your efforts were for naught, you are at least answering what your cutomers are asking for.

I don't mean to just sound like a whiner, I really don't! The things brought up by all the guys that have been doing this for years, were the same. No speed "unloading"!! when we stated it was dangerous it was with over 15 years of multi-gun experience. No mutually supporting stages. I.E rifle targets that couldn't /wouldn't get painted because the ENTIRE range had to be shut down to do so, because they were in the impact area of all the other ranges. The quick anser was NOT to paint, and let me tell you that as an iron sight shooter it was damn hard to see a washed out gray target in a dust storm at the end of the day. To hit one target I had to literally find a land mark and guess the target from that location, you know about a foot to the left of the big bush, in line with the break in the bush. I don't think recon by fire is a fair way to compete, especially when the morning guys got a freshly painted target! No excess weapons handleing, I.E running to a table that has ALL 3 guns sitting on it, chamber empty. Since we aren't advancing past the firearms they easily could have been hot! avoiding all the problems of racking, jacking, and contortions while the shooter is tring to figure out the stage while shooting. Like I said there is quite a list of what not to do.

I do think it was great that multi-gun was finaly done, and I hope USPSA as a whole can work it out, but I think it will be a long hard battle. I don't envy your job! As for the hands over the ears, well it looks like that from the outside, but since you explained it, it may be a bit more like what can I get all these other guys to do and accept. Thanks for the post! KURTM

[Flexmoney]

Kurt,

- How big should squads be?

I am thinking that there is the (1) current shooter, (2) on-deck shooter...who might be loading guns, (3) the in-the-hole shooter...could they supervise loading the on-deck shooter?, (4) the shooter who just finished, and deserves a cycle to de-energize ...and, (?)a number of stage resetting shooters. Should squads have at least 8 shooters?

- How long should the walk-thru be? Seem like 5 minutes isn't always enough?

- How long should it take to cyle a shooter thru a multi-gun stage? I know, for pistol, we budget 4...but, usually run them is less than 3 minutes.

[widegun]

[administrator note]

I removed this entire post. It was a personal response to another post (which I also edited).

And, I removed the one that followed it (by a different member)...that was a response to this one.

Edited June 30, 2004 by Flexmoney

[outerlimits]

i had no problems with any of the great folks who worked this match. i really like [RO #1], but [RO #2] can sometimes be rather gruff, especially given the circumstances surrounding the long days last weekend.

on the airplane stage, my 30rd mag dropped from my ar-it wasn't seated (my fault)...after trying to get the damn thing in, finally opening the bolt and then ramming it home, i realized the mag somehow got 31 rds in it (again, my fault). anyway, finally finished the stage and after clearing, [RO #2] shoves the timer within 6" of my face and says "it took you 30 seconds to get your first shot off"...for a minute, i thought i was back at MCRD in 1972. before i can say anything, he says something like "no one took that long to do that". in disbelief, all i could muster was "what the hell did you want me to do"...anyway, i digress.

having done this game since 1985, done numerous nationals/areas/sectionals, etc,, and have been level II for many years, i still appreciate the jobs these fine folks do at these matches...especially the marathon of last weekend!

Edited June 30, 2004 by Flexmoney

[Flexmoney]

[administrator hat on]

Thread opened!

I'd like to refer everyone to the Forum Guidlelines (click here).

Especially this part:

Attitude

Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful. Please – no antagonistic or quarrelsome tones.

[RiggerJJ]

Bruce,

Oh yea, I forgot one other thing...

The lack of TROPHIES was VERY unprofessional, whatever the reason. There was NO reconition (other than overall Match Winner, congrats Teran!!!) for anybody. It was almost a free-for-all at the prize table... Granted, the encroaching storm had some effect... another neg for Reno... And keeping the overall scores "a secret" until the prizes were distributed added to the free-for-all. The overall scores should have been posted, that way (at other matches I have been at) the winners will be standing in appropriate order at the prize table, and prizes are distributed in an orderly manner...

Another angle of my point is, does anyone who was there at the "awards ceremony" know who won Junior, Senior, Super Senior, or Lady in their respective divisions? (without looking...) Or their respective Class winners? And what the **** happened to Law and Military??? (another thread... sorry...)

uscbigdawg, As for burning rounds unnecessarily to speed unload;

While it is the condition that was present during most of the DQ's, I have to disagree and say that it is not the condition which caused the DQ's. SMM3G this year had 273 competitors and I think the number of DQ's was less than 10. There are hot guns down range and you ground cold guns in a match where time is a bigger factor. Lack of shooter familiarity with their own equipment and carelessness is what caused the DQ's.

It's a pet-peeve of mine, unloading on the clock IS unsafe, and the number of DQs that resulted from NOT having an unloaded firearm grounded or "abandon" is proof of that... At this match, at SMM3G, etc... Unfamiliarity? Sure, that is a major reason, but I think if we could ground a loaded firearm ON SAFE pointed toward a safe place (45 degrees down, into a sandbag bunker) is MUCH safer that having rounds going over the berm, or having unknown loaded firearms uprange pointing in unknown directions that Joe Target Taper could bump into, etc...

Personally, I do it this way, I think this is the safest (and fastest), but I may be wrong;

Pistol; drop the mag, rack the slide multiple times on the way to the grounding table...

Shotgun; do a GOOD round count when loading, plan for several (2-4, depending on the shotgun round count) makeup shots, and unload it by shooting at the last target until the shotgun is empty, and I check the chamber/follower to make sure before grounding it...

Rifle; same as pistol, but I am slower at this because I am left handed. Sometimes I drop the mag and shoot the last round...

Again, the match had GREAT STAGES, (I love multi-gun!) the perfect number of stages, and MOST of the staff were great too! The RM Carl was AWSOME, he should get an award of some kind, talk about over and above the call of duty!!! I met him on tuesday, he was very friendly, helpful, relaxed and composed, and that did not change thoughout the match, how did you do it, Carl?

JJ

[ErikW]

My big problem with grounding loaded guns is that the ROs have to turn their backs on the squad and the squad is antsy to move forward and do stuff. Did I already mention how many times the on-deck shooter came within arm's reach of an uncleared pistol? With a third RO or a physical barrier to keep the squad back on a multigun stage, this would be less of a concern for me.

The more I think about unloading vs. abandoning loaded, the more I think you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Racking the slide under pressure induces short-stroking, which results in the rare ejector detonation. Firing the round has its problems, like not looking where the gun is pointed, missing the berm, etc.

As this is specifically a 2004 USPSA 3 gun post mortem, I want to address the seemingly bizarre combination of A zone only targets. Realize that the match officials had the stages approved 5 (?) months ago and USPSA pulled the rug out from under them by instituting the provisional multigun rules 2 (?) months ago. The scoring problem introduced by the designated or primary gun was what led to targets with A zones only. I would have redesigned the courses, but I don't know if the staff had that option with only two months left.

What's important is that USPSA makes changes and fixes now and not two months before the next 3 gun nationals.

[ErikW]

I am merging "post-mortem" type posts from the "results or cool reports" topic into this one, and vice versa. Constructive criticism here, reports about how you shot and what you saw there in the other topic.

[rhino]

We could avoid the unloaded/loaded "grounded" guns if we allowed dropping the long gun to a sling and no one got antsy about holstering pistols in the middle of a stage.

[oddjob]

I have a simple question. There are times when I like to shoot my M-1 Garand in 3 gun (try it...it's fun!!!). Under the rules at the Nats I guess I couldn't load my rifle....Could I??? I shot my AR there and it was fine, but I am curious as I do like to shoot different guns at the local 3 gun matches.

[uscbigdawg]

From RiggerJJ:

I think if we could ground a loaded firearm ON SAFE pointed toward a safe place (45 degrees down, into a sandbag bunker) is MUCH safer that having rounds going over the berm, or having unknown loaded firearms uprange pointing in unknown directions that Joe Target Taper could bump into, etc...

For the record, I'm for grounding hot guns.

Rich