Unannounced Chrono stage at Level 1 Club Match

[Jim Norman]

It appears to me that this is for new shooters. They fail to demonstrate GH skills so they are not allowed to shoot or they demonstrate basic skills and are allowed to shoot as a Coached shooter, they are still learning and are not yet considered safe enough to be ledt on their own and finally the shooter passes at a level that allows them to shoot unaided.

Remember that this was written in 2000 and since then we have changed a few rules. We eliminated the holster check, we no allow coaching of all levels of shooter at a level one match.

This was not aimed at a USPSA member but at a first time shooter.

Apparently they are using this as a check on shooters that have experienced a certain number of safety violations. Right now according to the rules I believe that you cannot tell a member he cannot shoot a match, maybe we need a method to address chronic offenders? There cold be a problem of course, there are 12 weeks in three months, I have the opportunity to shoot maybe 10 matches and I do, I DQ twice, once for a dropped gun due to a broken holster and once for a 181 break of the 180. Shooter Two only shoots two matches and DQs grievously at both, shatters the 180 with a full 360 turn and at his next time at bat lets a round go over the berm. With the rules in place in WA, we both get the same treatment. I see this as a problem.

Do we need a way to deal with a patently unsafe shooter while trying to rehabilitate him? Yes. The question is how do we do it so that we address the right situation and don't beat the wrong person over the head with the rulebook.

[Nik Habicht]

Nik, Just for thoughts here, if one removes the scores for failure to chrono, or DQs the shooter for failing to attend the chrono at some point during the match, what in the end is the difference? In both cases the shooter is not going to the prize table. Now, if we tell a shooter to go to chrono and he refuses then there are ways to deal with that issue, Failure to follow the reasonable requests of the RO.

For sections that tracks shooter DQ's, it makes a difference. But yes, the effect in terms of scores is the same.

For my section DQ too many times in a short time period can be tough: http://northwestsect...rehabpopup.html

Woah, that's tough but I'm glad to someone doing something about it. 2 thumbs up!

I wish I had not read this LOL

I'm not so sure about two thumbs up. I don't understand how a card carrying member of USPSA can be denied entry into a match. I also have reservations about your home brewed Safety check. There is no rule for a holster to pass the test you created. Also, you have an RO evaluate a shooters abilities which determines at what level he can participate? From a USPSA rules perspective what allows your section to make a shooter participate as unclassified if he is already a USPSA classified shooter?

Who does this safety check pertain to Exactly?

Kevin:

Regarding the holster check, read page 20 of the rule book, section 5.2.6.

There's no provision for a holster check for every competitor.....

[Sarge]

Nik, Just for thoughts here, if one removes the scores for failure to chrono, or DQs the shooter for failing to attend the chrono at some point during the match, what in the end is the difference? In both cases the shooter is not going to the prize table. Now, if we tell a shooter to go to chrono and he refuses then there are ways to deal with that issue, Failure to follow the reasonable requests of the RO.

For sections that tracks shooter DQ's, it makes a difference. But yes, the effect in terms of scores is the same.

For my section DQ too many times in a short time period can be tough: http://northwestsect...rehabpopup.html

Woah, that's tough but I'm glad to someone doing something about it. 2 thumbs up!

I wish I had not read this LOL

I'm not so sure about two thumbs up. I don't understand how a card carrying member of USPSA can be denied entry into a match. I also have reservations about your home brewed Safety check. There is no rule for a holster to pass the test you created. Also, you have an RO evaluate a shooters abilities which determines at what level he can participate? From a USPSA rules perspective what allows your section to make a shooter participate as unclassified if he is already a USPSA classified shooter?

Who does this safety check pertain to Exactly?

Kevin:

Regarding the holster check, read page 20 of the rule book, section 5.2.6.

I just read 5.2.6 AGAIN and I don't see where it says

HOLSTER TESTS: Holster must pass jump test (16" (40cm) jump and twist).

5.2.6 refers to an unsafe holster. Plenty of shooters have their holster's retention adjusted to the point that they probably would not pass the test.

Besides, what if a shooter has a problem doing a 16" vertical? I can lock my holster and defeat the requirement but I can't jump 16".

[RePete]

Nik, Just for thoughts here, if one removes the scores for failure to chrono, or DQs the shooter for failing to attend the chrono at some point during the match, what in the end is the difference? In both cases the shooter is not going to the prize table. Now, if we tell a shooter to go to chrono and he refuses then there are ways to deal with that issue, Failure to follow the reasonable requests of the RO.

For sections that tracks shooter DQ's, it makes a difference. But yes, the effect in terms of scores is the same.

For my section DQ too many times in a short time period can be tough: http://northwestsect...rehabpopup.html

Woah, that's tough but I'm glad to someone doing something about it. 2 thumbs up!

I wish I had not read this LOL

I'm not so sure about two thumbs up. I don't understand how a card carrying member of USPSA can be denied entry into a match. I also have reservations about your home brewed Safety check. There is no rule for a holster to pass the test you created. Also, you have an RO evaluate a shooters abilities which determines at what level he can participate? From a USPSA rules perspective what allows your section to make a shooter participate as unclassified if he is already a USPSA classified shooter?

Who does this safety check pertain to Exactly?

Kevin:

Regarding the holster check, read page 20 of the rule book, section 5.2.6.

I just read 5.2.6 AGAIN and I don't see where it says

HOLSTER TESTS: Holster must pass jump test (16" (40cm) jump and twist).

5.2.6 refers to an unsafe holster. Plenty of shooters have their holster's retention adjusted to the point that they probably would not pass the test.

Besides, what if a shooter has a problem doing a 16" vertical? I can lock my holster and defeat the requirement but I can't jump 16".

Any jump test that I know of is about 4" or so.

The RM can deem a holster unsafe.

QUOTE - "USPSA Handgun matches will not require the use of a particular type

or brand of holster. However, the Range Master may deem that a competitor’s

holster is unsafe and order that it be improved to his satisfaction,

failing which it must be withdrawn from the match. Divisions may

restrict a specific type of holster." unquote.

[sperman]

Any jump test that I know of is about 4" or so.

What jump test would that be?

[Punkin Chunker]

Nik, Just for thoughts here, if one removes the scores for failure to chrono, or DQs the shooter for failing to attend the chrono at some point during the match, what in the end is the difference? In both cases the shooter is not going to the prize table. Now, if we tell a shooter to go to chrono and he refuses then there are ways to deal with that issue, Failure to follow the reasonable requests of the RO.

The difference is that the shooter gets to finish the match.....

...shooting for fun...

And no, I couldn't support "reasonable direction of the RO" when we have a specific way to deal with the situation that is within the rules...

Well put.

But couldn't we make them wear a pink tutu or paint a red 'C' on their forehead or something?

And on the arbitration side -- if sanctions for failing chrono are going to be imposed, it sure better stand up to scrutiny on the procedures. I would anticipate the same people who squawk about a chrono would be likely to push the arb if the details weren't followed as they should be.

[West Texas Granny]

As far as trusting the published numbers from the ammo makers if they can't be trusted no chrono stage can be trusted.

That makes no sense whatsoever, particularly in view of the fact that published numbers from ammo makers relate to specific barrel lengths and specific firearms, and they (and people here) have said quite clearly that barrel length in particular, and firearm choice in general, make a difference.

This, by the way, is well-known. Not exactly an arguable point for anyone who actually understands the chrono process.

Also, what the chrono stage has to do (with respect to "trust," whatever you mean by that) compared to the published velocity of varied ammunition types, is a complete unknown.

Very simple. Any test equipment that is not properly maintained, calibrated, stored, operated with all variables accounted for cannot produce valid results. So I'm much more likely to trust the ammo makers numbers over the run of the mill chrono.

[Jim Norman]

WTG,

The problem with your theory is that you fail to take into account the differences in individual firearms. Two supposedly identical guns firing rounds from the same batch held at the same temperature at the same time of day with the moon in the 7th house and Jupiter aligned with Mars will very likely return different bullet speeds. The MFG test gun might be a fast barrel or a slow barrel and it might be 5" or 6" or 12" how does that correlate to the shooter's 4-1/4" barrel? What type of rifling does the test barrel have? Was the temperature and elevation and Relative Humidity the same as where you are?

The new CED Chronos are what is used at the Nats and most Area Matches. There are others true, but this is what is used. I hve one, it is very close to what Nats or Area report back to me on my loads. I do have it set up with IR screens in a box. Thi si snot hard to do. the box is cardboard, teh IR screens are powered by a 12v lawn tractor battery.

Sorry, but factory ammo is not better than the loading manual. It ma or it may not give you the results you expect, that is why we test. Different batches of heads, powders, brass, primers, all can affect the load in addition to the gun.

[Thomas H]

Very simple. Any test equipment that is not properly maintained, calibrated, stored, operated with all variables accounted for cannot produce valid results. So I'm much more likely to trust the ammo makers numbers over the run of the mill chrono.

Ah. So you don't understand the testing procedure used by ammunition manufacturers, the restraints upon the use of that data, and the situations in which that data is valid. Nor do you understand a chronograph. And you have not paid attention to any of the specific details carefully listed in this thread regarding why published velocities are most likely not going to be accurate for your specific firearm.

That does indeed clear things up.

Going back to the point of this thread, and leaving behind people who willfully ignore well-known facts...

...having a chrono stage (announced or not) at a local club match is a very good idea, IMO. As has been said---it helps people by giving them experience with chrono stages, providing data on their specific loads, and making sure that everyone is conforming to the rules that are required if you want to run an actual fair USPSA match.

Other than chrono stages can slow down a match if not done properly, what isn't to like about having a chrono stage? Several people here have already given ideas on how to integrate a chrono stage without bogging down the match---so what's the problem?

[aztecdriver]

Very simple. Any test equipment that is not properly maintained, calibrated, stored, operated with all variables accounted for cannot produce valid results. So I'm much more likely to trust the ammo makers numbers over the run of the mill chrono.

You really need to stop making assertions without knowing the facts. It's not a "run of the mill" chrono and it's not run willy nilly. Read the requirements of section C2. Those requirements are what must be followed to produce valid responses - otherwise declared power factor will be used.

You also need to understand that the published numbers are for SPECIFIC test barrels of a published length. Every firearm is different, even from different guns within the same model. I've got two G34s, same barrel, two different results. You are required to make power WITH YOUR EQUIPMENT. It's validated by a piece of equipment, checked by the procedures in C2.

This is not hard. Read C2 before telling me how it sucks - and try making an argument about the procedures, not that it just sucks and what people perceive as being an accusation.

[UW Mitch]

I always loved when they chrono - before last year I didn't have one of my own, so it was an extra opportunity to gather data on my loads to confirm the data I collected using friends chronos. I've always loaded with a safe buffer to allow for variation in atmospheric conditions. If you're loading your own ammo an "you had no idea your ammo didn't make power factor" then you're a moron for loading without testing. If you're buying ammo, most factory ammo would make PF. It's fun to watch a guy shit himself when they announce a chrono stage!

~Mitch

[West Texas Granny]

Very simple. Any test equipment that is not properly maintained, calibrated, stored, operated with all variables accounted for cannot produce valid results. So I'm much more likely to trust the ammo makers numbers over the run of the mill chrono.

You really need to stop making assertions without knowing the facts. It's not a "run of the mill" chrono and it's not run willy nilly. Read the requirements of section C2. Those requirements are what must be followed to produce valid responses - otherwise declared power factor will be used.

You also need to understand that the published numbers are for SPECIFIC test barrels of a published length. Every firearm is different, even from different guns within the same model. I've got two G34s, same barrel, two different results. You are required to make power WITH YOUR EQUIPMENT. It's validated by a piece of equipment, checked by the procedures in C2.

This is not hard. Read C2 before telling me how it sucks - and try making an argument about the procedures, not that it just sucks and what people perceive as being an accusation.

C2 does not address calibration of the chronograph, it's care or maintance therefore it is run of the mill,willy nilly and subject to erroneous results. Running ammo through an uncaliberated piece of equipment is the equilvant of you guessing the power factor based on how much noise is generated when the gun is fired.

This is still a valid statement:

Any test equipment that is not properly maintained, calibrated, stored, operated with all variables accounted for cannot produce valid results.

[RePete]

A chrono is a delicate piece of equipment and I don't know anyone who owns a chrono, whether cheap or expensive, that throws them about.

This is how I store and carry mine PACT. It's in a breakdown shtgun case.

Edited February 21, 2012 by RePete

[Supermoto]

C2 does not address calibration of the chronograph, it's care or maintance therefore it is run of the mill,willy nilly and subject to erroneous results. Running ammo through an uncaliberated piece of equipment is the equilvant of you guessing the power factor based on how much noise is generated when the gun is fired.

This is still a valid statement:

Any test equipment that is not properly maintained, calibrated, stored, operated with all variables accounted for cannot produce valid results.

Wow, you really hate the chrono. Its pretty simple, if you are the only one that didn't make declared PF...its not the Chrono.

[Nik Habicht]

Very simple. Any test equipment that is not properly maintained, calibrated, stored, operated with all variables accounted for cannot produce valid results. So I'm much more likely to trust the ammo makers numbers over the run of the mill chrono.

You really need to stop making assertions without knowing the facts. It's not a "run of the mill" chrono and it's not run willy nilly. Read the requirements of section C2. Those requirements are what must be followed to produce valid responses - otherwise declared power factor will be used.

You also need to understand that the published numbers are for SPECIFIC test barrels of a published length. Every firearm is different, even from different guns within the same model. I've got two G34s, same barrel, two different results. You are required to make power WITH YOUR EQUIPMENT. It's validated by a piece of equipment, checked by the procedures in C2.

This is not hard. Read C2 before telling me how it sucks - and try making an argument about the procedures, not that it just sucks and what people perceive as being an accusation.

C2 does not address calibration of the chronograph, it's care or maintance therefore it is run of the mill,willy nilly and subject to erroneous results. Running ammo through an uncaliberated piece of equipment is the equilvant of you guessing the power factor based on how much noise is generated when the gun is fired.

This is still a valid statement:

Any test equipment that is not properly maintained, calibrated, stored, operated with all variables accounted for cannot produce valid results.

Actually the chrono is calibrated -- or at least checked for consistency from day to day -- using the calibration ammo and RM's gun or guns.....

There's even a requirement for the results being consistent within a certain range from day to day....

Dual chronos serve to validate each other. And smart RMs still check dual chrono set-ups with the calibration ammo/guns each day for consistency....

[Flexmoney]

None of this discussion really matters.

The fact is the procedure is set in the rule book...for all levels of matches. If somebody wants that changed, they'd need to do the work needed to present their case and get the rules changed.

[co-exprs]

Charlie,

I shot that match as well and was a little surprise by "who" didn't make declared major. Not intentionally I'm sure, but you expect GMs to be on top of thier equipment. I'm all for it as well. Especially considering it was right before a major national match and at one of the most competitive local matches in the state. I don't think it needs to be a habbit, but once in a great while just enhances the game and sort of keeps honest people honest.

Mike

[Mitch Harrington]

I'm pretty sure I also shot this match, if it was in Pueblo the Sunday before Nationals. I was on my way back from a week of R&R in the Woodland Park area and decided to shoot a club match on my way back home. There were a few groans as well as a few cheers when it was announced there was to be a chrono stage. A couple of guys packed their stuff up and left. I have to admit that I found that more than a little amusing.

Personally, I like the idea of a "surprise" chrono stage, ESPECIALLY the week before Nationals. It gave me another opportunity to verify my load. It also satisfied my curiousity as to how much the elevation would affect my load (next to nothing).

[Jim Norman]

Interesting that some people packed up and left. One must assume that they knew they would not make their declared PF. Seems that just maybe there was a little bit of dishonesty????

[bbbean]

A couple of guys packed their stuff up and left.

I can't imagine such a thing. Other clubs must draw a different breed of shooters than I'm used to shooting with. If I didn't trust that the other shooters were making a good faith effort to play by the rules, I'd find another game.

BB

[West Texas Granny]

None of this discussion really matters.

The fact is the procedure is set in the rule book...for all levels of matches.  If somebody wants that changed, they'd need to do the work needed to present their case and get the rules changed.

When you look at the title of the thread you see the second line which poses the question. Benefit or Detriment. Yet instead of addressing that question the thread drifts away from the question. Many point to "the rule". Yet those responsible for enforcing "the rule" do not enforce it. Instead people point to "the rule". See we have "this rule". Its in your rule book you got when you became a member. So you have "a rule". Tell me what's  the use of a having a rule that's not enforced by the very people charged with that duty. The Match Directors. The RO's the section,area and BOD's but you don't mind jumping on an individual shooter and say there's "this rule" yet turn around and abdicate their responsibility when it comes to enforcing "the rule". It's the MD and RO's who are running the match not some shooter who shows up to shoot.

I've only shot level one matches and in the near 4 years of shooting those matches I've yet to see a chronograph stage. In fact I've never shot a chronograph stage. I would like too so I could get some baseline data for the ammo and guns I use. Of course my guess as to the reason I haven't see a chronograph stage is that to keep costs low and people shooting any money generated is funneled first into fees for USPSA, the range and then other equipment necessary for the match with a chronograph being simply a luxury that some clubs simply cannot afford thus leaving chronograph stages/issues to the level 2 and 3 matches.

Now my view of the question posed was an unannounced chrono stage when there had never been one was a detriment because it was saying that those running the match thought someone was cheating and you had to prove your innocence. The counter argument presented to me was if you had nothing to hide then there is no problem.  If that is truly what you believe then you would have no problem with a Law Enforcement Organization coming into your home to search it without a warrant. After all if you have nothing to hide...

[Jim Norman]

You need to get out more. I have seen Chronos at a number of Level 1 Matches. We do it a couple times a year now. used to be less, but then we'd also get together and chrono and let people know that we were doing it so that they also had the opportunity to shoot our chronos.

The rule says how you must run the chrono IF you run it, in the absence of a chrono you use the declared PF.

Now some people get torqued if a chrono is set up, not our problem really. If your club has NEVER run a chrono and all your shooters load their own and don't have a chrono, maybe before I'd run a chrono at the match, I'd announce that AFTER the next match or on a day preceding the match a chrono will be available.

It really isn't a "We'll get you" scenario here. And if any of your shooters are headed out to L2 or L3 matches, you are doing them a favor by running a chrono.

[Sarge]

in the near 4 years of shooting those matches I've yet to see a chronograph stage. In fact I've never shot a chronograph stage. I would like too so I could get some baseline data for the ammo and guns I use.

If you have been shooting for 4 years you are 3 years and 11 months overdue on buying your own chrono.

[SteveU]

I've only shot level one matches and in the near 4 years of shooting those matches I've yet to see a chronograph stage. In fact I've never shot a chronograph stage. I would like too so I could get some baseline data for the ammo and guns I use. ing into your home to search it without a warrant. After all if you have nothing to hide...

See? So for you think how cool it would be to go to a match and have a chrono stage!

[SteveU]

Now my view of the question posed was an unannounced chrono stage when there had never been one was a detriment because it was saying that those running the match thought someone was cheating and you had to prove your innocence. The counter argument presented to me was if you had nothing to hide then there is no problem.  If that is truly what you believe then you would have no problem with a Law Enforcement Organization coming into your home to search it without a warrant. After all if you have nothing to hide...

Logical error in your argument: False choice. I support random chrono use in USPSA AND the 4th Amendment. You CAN have both. Live it.

(man. I must be really bored to jump into this one)