sperman Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 However, if a club is getting big turnouts for a match, I can see the issue. Lots of clubs simply do not have the ranges/facilities needed. If you have a 4 stage match and you get 80 shooters, that's a 20 member squad, which sucks. I can see members complaining about shooting the same amount but it taking all day to do it. I don't like to sit around waiting forever at majors, let alone a club match. Any ideas on how to solve this issue without turning away new or other non-member shooters? Raise the match fee's. If you still get 80+ shooters at $30/ match make it $40. Eventually you will make the price higher than some people are willing to pay. In the mean time you are putting money in the bank so that somewhere down the line you can add more bays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ask the county if upgrades done by the club could come out of the rent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Multiple attempts to get the County to add shooting bays have been rejected for lack of funds. I would definetively love to see more bays at this range. Even with all the range limitations, the club puts really good and fun matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Any ideas on how to solve this issue without turning away new or other non-member shooters? Simple. Pre-register. Accept the first XX registrations. Stat person can have the information entered prior to match day to save their post-match effort. It worked at clubs in VA and PA where I used to shoot. Speeds up registration, too... if information doesn't change, they dont have to fill anything out. Requires a bit of extra effort (responding to emails, keeping track of who is signed up, etc. For the response, you could just send out a list a day or two prior saying "the following people are in...") -rvb Edited January 17, 2012 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdm74 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Any ideas on how to solve this issue without turning away new or other non-member shooters? Simple. Pre-register. -rvb Easiest way to do it. You could even give the members who help out with set up..etc,a few days early notice to register. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 If the range is available could you possibly set it up Saturday and let the members shoot it then let the main match shoot on Sunday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Any ideas on how to solve this issue without turning away new or other non-member shooters? Simple. Pre-register. -rvb Easiest way to do it. You could even give the members who help out with set up..etc,a few days early notice to register. absolutely. you need ROs and setup-up crew and stats folks, etc to be on the list. Or if you have a dedicated group of folks committed to being there to work the match, just reduce the number of slots by that amount, so they always have room to be there. -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jollymon32 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) There is a lot more to this situation than what the OP mentioned. Main issue is that the Club's not for profit standing is in jeopardy due to the large number of non-member shooters. Different proposals are being evaluated to satisfy the IRS requirement of having a min % of revenue coming from members. Also, the only USPSA event is once a month. If any issues surrounding the requirement of being a member to shoot, it would only apply to this monthly shoot. Edited January 17, 2012 by Jollymon32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Just throwing a extra bit of information: The NRA provides range improvement grants. I know my club took advantage of such a grant to rework and raise some some our berms a couple of years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Jollymon32 wrote: There is a lot more to this situation than what the OP mentioned. Main issue is that the Club's not for profit standing is in jeopardy due to the large number of non-member shooters. Different proposals are being evaluated to satisfy the IRS requirement of having a min % of revenue coming from members. Missouri, the SHOW ME state, is right next door. So somebody please show me the federal tax code that spells that out. Like I said, I am a member of two clubs (well, 3 clubs total, and a 4th whenever I can make it up to PASA park, PASA requires membership also to shoot their matches, but it is just $15 dollars and you get your first match free). So two of the clubs I have membership to have two different policies about shooting matches by non-members. At the one club, it is a 3 matches only by non-members. If the IRS tax code specifically spells out only X percentage of money revenue can be from non-members, then that rule doesn't make all that much sense. And at least by what I have seen/heard who is a member vs. who isn't a member isn't tracked all that closely, if at all, especially if it really is something required by a federal agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck223 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) For tax purposes, I believe some not for profit clubs have to be wary. When a large portion of club revenue comes from non-members, it might be an easy leverage point when dealing with nuisance neighbours. In some cases, the worst a club might have to fear is a change in tax rate or corporation status. Depending on the individual situation, that might not be a horrible outcome. For other clubs, they might be enjoying a reduced property tax rate based on being a not for profit F&G type association. It's a pretty hard whallop to the pocket book if the irate neighbours trigger an IRS audit, creating a potential drain of cash for income taxes and an increase in property taxes. As for barring non-members, I think it is short sighted. If space and time is limited, and members are being squeezed out, I can see reserving a large block of slots for the home club, but not an outright ban. Edited January 17, 2012 by Canuck223 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) As for barring non-members, I think it is short sighted. If space and time is limited, and members are being squeezed out, I can see reserving a large block of slots for the home club, but not an outright ban. What was the old American Express slogan? "Membership has its privileges." Edited January 17, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Our club is non profit as well and most of our match participants are non members. I have never heard of any issues regarding tax issues. I'll bring it up at our next meeting and see what I can learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 If the object is reduce the number of shooters, requiring club membership is a good way to do it. Around here, people join the club that is close to them and convenient, and they help out at that club, but they still shoot events at the other local clubs. I've been an officer in 2 different non-profits (motorcycle club and trail advocacy club), and I never heard anything ever about the source of revenue (member vs non-member) being any issue whatsoever. We never even tracked it... at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jollymon32 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) Jollymon32 wrote: There is a lot more to this situation than what the OP mentioned. Main issue is that the Club's not for profit standing is in jeopardy due to the large number of non-member shooters. Different proposals are being evaluated to satisfy the IRS requirement of having a min % of revenue coming from members. Missouri, the SHOW ME state, is right next door. So somebody please show me the federal tax code that spells that out. Like I said, I am a member of two clubs (well, 3 clubs total, and a 4th whenever I can make it up to PASA park, PASA requires membership also to shoot their matches, but it is just $15 dollars and you get your first match free). So two of the clubs I have membership to have two different policies about shooting matches by non-members. At the one club, it is a 3 matches only by non-members. If the IRS tax code specifically spells out only X percentage of money revenue can be from non-members, then that rule doesn't make all that much sense. And at least by what I have seen/heard who is a member vs. who isn't a member isn't tracked all that closely, if at all, especially if it really is something required by a federal agency. Read IRS tax code for 501©7 organizations. Whether it makes sense to you or not is irrelevant, it is tax law. See http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopicg80.pdf Specifically states precedent where if more than 17% of revenue comes from non-members the exception status is at risk. Edited January 18, 2012 by Jollymon32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Read IRS tax code for 501©7 organizations. Whether it makes sense to you or not is irrelevant, it is tax law. See http://www.irs.gov/p.../eotopicg80.pdf Specifically states precedent where if more than 17% of revenue comes from non-members the exception status is at risk. Simple! Raise the membership fee. Oh wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I like the PASA-style "you must be a member to shoot and it costs $20 but your first match is free" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Jollymon32 wrote: There is a lot more to this situation than what the OP mentioned. Main issue is that the Club's not for profit standing is in jeopardy due to the large number of non-member shooters. Different proposals are being evaluated to satisfy the IRS requirement of having a min % of revenue coming from members. Missouri, the SHOW ME state, is right next door. So somebody please show me the federal tax code that spells that out. Like I said, I am a member of two clubs (well, 3 clubs total, and a 4th whenever I can make it up to PASA park, PASA requires membership also to shoot their matches, but it is just $15 dollars and you get your first match free). So two of the clubs I have membership to have two different policies about shooting matches by non-members. At the one club, it is a 3 matches only by non-members. If the IRS tax code specifically spells out only X percentage of money revenue can be from non-members, then that rule doesn't make all that much sense. And at least by what I have seen/heard who is a member vs. who isn't a member isn't tracked all that closely, if at all, especially if it really is something required by a federal agency. Read IRS tax code for 501©7 organizations. Whether it makes sense to you or not is irrelevant, it is tax law. See http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopicg80.pdf Specifically states precedent where if more than 17% of revenue comes from non-members the exception status is at risk. Okay, cool! Thanks for answering my question. Yeah, I hear ya, it's from the .gov , so I expect it to be about as clear as mud. Yeah, shred, you're right about PASA's membership and first match free deal. Somebody already mentioned this about just re-writing the club's charter to include an "event only membership level". Sounds to me like a perfectly legal loophole approach to get people to shoot more USPSA matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I like the PASA-style "you must be a member to shoot and it costs $20 but your first match is free" Can I apply that "free" match to a major? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 A local club is playing with the idea of requiring that the shooters become paid club members in order to shoot a local (Level I) match. Do you agree or disagree? Sounds like a few members are trying to kill of matches. We have members at our club who would love to do the same. I HATE asshats who want to repress shooting sports just so they have no conflicts of using the club they seem to think they own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadslinger275 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 It is a violation of the USPSA's rules to hold a USPSA match and then not allow a card carrying member to shoot there, subject to some very narrow exceptions with the permission of NHQ. In other words, if you want to have a "members only" club, don't hold USPSA matches. This is what I have been told also. If this is a huge issue to you I suggest calling your Area Director and seeing if this is the case. I would have to join 6 clubs in my section just to shoot all my local matches... insanity!!! I don't make that kind of money and I don't know many shooters that do!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 It is a violation of the USPSA's rules to hold a USPSA match and then not allow a card carrying member to shoot there, subject to some very narrow exceptions with the permission of NHQ. In other words, if you want to have a "members only" club, don't hold USPSA matches. This is what I have been told also. If this is a huge issue to you I suggest calling your Area Director and seeing if this is the case. I would have to join 6 clubs in my section just to shoot all my local matches... insanity!!! I don't make that kind of money and I don't know many shooters that do!!! And some clubs also have "work hours" required to maintain membership... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 A local club is playing with the idea of requiring that the shooters become paid club members in order to shoot a local (Level I) match. Do you agree or disagree? Sounds like a few members are trying to kill of matches. We have members at our club who would love to do the same. I HATE asshats who want to repress shooting sports just so they have no conflicts of using the club they seem to think they own. Actually, at the one "local" club I have been talking about...well...making that requirement cuts both ways. We have a large enough faction of IDPA'ers/USPSA'ers/steel shooters who are big enough "rabble rousers" that we can get enough of us practical pistolero's to the meetings to vote on stuff....or vote against stuff... One of the IDPA co-match directors is now the range's treasurer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 It is a violation of the USPSA's rules to hold a USPSA match and then not allow a card carrying member to shoot there, subject to some very narrow exceptions with the permission of NHQ. In other words, if you want to have a "members only" club, don't hold USPSA matches. This is what I have been told also. If this is a huge issue to you I suggest calling your Area Director and seeing if this is the case. I would have to join 6 clubs in my section just to shoot all my local matches... insanity!!! I don't make that kind of money and I don't know many shooters that do!!! And some clubs also have "work hours" required to maintain membership... The same club/range I have been babbling about has a yearly membership fee of $250. If you work 16 hours of "work time", you will get $100 knocked off the next year's membership fee. Our USPSA'ers used to set up on Saturday, and then shoot the match on Sunday. I think those setter upper's got 4 hours worth of work credit. What I used to do on match day was put my shop vac in the back of my truck, shoot the match, help tear down a bit, and then go over and vacuum out the trap and skeet houses. Bot-a-boom-bot-a-bing! I quickly got $100 knocked off my membership fee. So, are work hours required at this particular club? No. Is there a financial incentive to do some work time? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jollymon32 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Several novel ideas are being considered; First shoot is no longer free, shooter pays the normal fee and gets a membership. Problem is that current membership is $50 per year and shoots are $20. Only way that would be fair is if membership is reduced to $20 for everyone. Another idea, non-members pay $30 instead of $20, and after 5 shoots, they are automatically given membership. Regarding any USPSA issue, the salient point is that there is ONLY one USPSA event a month. If indeed USPSA rules do not allow the exclusion to a shoot based on membership (a concept that has yet to be substantiated) then this would only apply to that one shoot, not the 5 other shoots occurring during the month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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