What is the call?

[Howard762]

Shotgun stage required shooter to start with chamber empty, but tube loaded or magazine inserted, lying flat on table. RO comes up to me (as RM) a shooter or 2 later and asks me what the penalty is and tells me what happened: Shooter retrieved shotgun and while running to shooting box racked the bolt (FNH SLP) and a round came out of the gun. He thinks it should be a DQ, but did not stop the shooter at the time. I didn't see it though I was on the stage at the time. I did talk to the shooter. He swears it wasn't loaded. I talked to witnesses. They said it came out with force, looked like it was ejected, and didn't just fall out. Th eshooter is a USPSA master, but is fairly new to multi-gun. So he understands range commands and procedures, but is not overly practiced in multi-gun procedures. I loooked at the IMGA rules (which we were using rather than USPSA) and there is no mention of this situation. The scoresheets were not being signed by anyone so that is not a factor. I know if it was at the end of a stage it would have been a DQ, but what about at the beginning of the stage as in this case?

Arguements for DQ:

- Shooter had a loaded gun when he wasn't supposed to.

- Shooter is responsible for the condition of his firearm

- Shooter probably loaded chamber at preloading table.

Arguements against a DQ:

- RO didn't check condition of chamber prior to stage. (But I'm not sure I've ever seen that on a preloaded shotgun)

- RO didn't stop the shooter and DQ him when he had the chance.

- Round may have come from tube not chamber.

- No one was ever downrange of the firearm so even if it did have a round chambered there was no safety issue.

- Equal chance that if the chamber was loaded it occured during "make ready" and RO should have had him make ready properly.

Looking forward to your opinions, Howard

[Benelli Chick]

Something similar happened at RM3G 2009. Shooter came to the line to load and racked one out of the gun! We have specific preload signs. He was DQ'd.

Your situation. RO needed to stop him, because after it all...it's hard to say what happened after the fact.

Bummer!

I was so upset about it at RM3G, we wrote it into the stage briefing on EACH stage and there are still signs at the preload table that say load tube only, you must have an EMPTY chamber.

It IS in the IMGA rules because that's a loaded gun before you come to the line on a cold range.

Best I can do! Sorry for you! Sucks to have this kind of thing happen!

Denise

Sorry! One more thought! If he did put in in the chamber at the load and make ready (under the command of the range officer), then he started the stage incorrectly and needs to reshoot it. It might be poor sportsmanship(depending on your rules) if he snuck it into the chamber, but it doesn't sound like he did since he jacked it out anyway. Sounds like the shooter didn't know it was in the chamber either...or he racked it to cover up the fact he realized it was loaded and didn't want to fire without racking the gun.

No matter what, I think it's kind of too late to figure out for sure...but it is something to be more clear about in the future.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Benelli Chick

[twodownzero]

No DQ if you can't verify that the round came from the chamber and not the tube. Can't DQ someone if you can't cite the specific rule they violated. It would be unethical to do anything else. I can see where you're going with the "it probably came from the chamber," but "probably" isn't good enough to send someone home.

Edited December 17, 2011 by twodownzero

[Lead-Head]

DQ the shooter for having a loaded gun when he wasn't supposed to.

DQ the RO for not knowing they were supposed to make the call immediately, and then call for the RM. Bringing it up 2 shooters later is too-late. Especially if the RO did not see it.

DQ the 2 witnesses for ratting out their squad-mate.

Wait, sorry, I was having a USPSA flash-back. That is DQing 4 too many people. Back to the point. No one should have been DQed in my opinion.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Lead-Head

[busyhawk]

DQ the shooter for having a loaded gun when he wasn't supposed to.

DQ the RO for not knowing they were supposed to make the call immediately, and then call for the RM. Bringing it up 2 shooters later is too-late. Especially if the RO did not see it.

DQ the 2 witnesses for ratting out their squad-mate.

Wait, sorry, I was having a USPSA flash-back. That is DQing 4 too many people. Back to the point. No one should have been DQed in my opinion.

#1. No where was it stated where and when the round got in the chamber (if it in fact was ejected from Chamber) was loaded...so no DQ if no safety issue! If shooters preloaded under the direction of another RO or on the line then shame on someone. If no safety issue then just a Procedural if in fact the RO can call it that the first time the shooter racked the bolt that a round came out of the chamber.

#2. Unless it is a safety issue DQing an RO is out of the question...really? As stated prior that RO should have stopped the shooter and addressed the problem right then since it seemed that the RO knew something wasn't right. If there is a question of safety, it is better to stop a shooter..and then called the RM to get a formal call. I agree that 2 shooters later is not a time to bring this up...but never to late to call the RM to clear things up even just for clarification.

#3. The RO did ask for opinions of the gallery but that is not a good call either. The RO is in charge of the shooter and is also responsible for the actions and safety for that stage and shooters...The RO makes the call and if the shooter doesn't like it or is in dispute over the call then follow up with the RM.

Next thing we will start using the camera to make the call...Just like the NFL!

Lead-Head...I know you were just pulling a leg but some out there take this to serious and don't know better.

Hope this helps,

Sincerely,

RLTW,

Busyhawk

[Lead-Head]

DQ the shooter for having a loaded gun when he wasn't supposed to.

DQ the RO for not knowing they were supposed to make the call immediately, and then call for the RM. Bringing it up 2 shooters later is too-late. Especially if the RO did not see it.

DQ the 2 witnesses for ratting out their squad-mate.

Wait, sorry, I was having a USPSA flash-back. That is DQing 4 too many people. Back to the point. No one should have been DQed in my opinion.

#1. No where was it stated where and when the round got in the chamber (if it in fact was ejected from Chamber) was loaded...so no DQ if no safety issue! If shooters preloaded under the direction of another RO or on the line then shame on someone. If no safety issue then just a Procedural if in fact the RO can call it that the first time the shooter racked the bolt that a round came out of the chamber.

#2. Unless it is a safety issue DQing an RO is out of the question...really? As stated prior that RO should have stopped the shooter and addressed the problem right then since it seemed that the RO knew something wasn't right. If there is a question of safety, it is better to stop a shooter..and then called the RM to get a formal call. I agree that 2 shooters later is not a time to bring this up...but never to late to call the RM to clear things up even just for clarification.

#3. The RO did ask for opinions of the gallery but that is not a good call either. The RO is in charge of the shooter and is also responsible for the actions and safety for that stage and shooters...The RO makes the call and if the shooter doesn't like it or is in dispute over the call then follow up with the RM.

Next thing we will start using the camera to make the call...Just like the NFL!

Lead-Head...I know you were just pulling a leg but some out there take this to serious and don't know better.

Hope this helps,

Sincerely,

RLTW,

Busyhawk

I was only being partialy serious.

Anyone with Elmer Fudd as his avatar, and a Mel Tillis quote from Cannonbal Run at the end of each post should be taken with a grain of salt.

If DQing ROs was a possibility, I would have been gone 3 squads into ROing at Blue Ridge the first year I worked it. I did not know what I was doing. There is a learning curve to everything, and good ROs are a huge part of a successfull match.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Lead-Head

[StealthyBlagga]

No DQ if you can't verify that the round came from the chamber and not the tube. Can't DQ someone if you can't cite the specific rule they violated. It would be unethical to do anything else. I can see where you're going with the "it probably came from the chamber," but "probably" isn't good enough to send someone home.

This is the correct answer. If the RO is not sure a specific rule was violated, he can't DQ the shooter.

[59Bassman]

One question - were chamber flags in use (as in mandatory) for this match? Not that it makes a whole heap of difference on the DQ, but if there were chamber flags in use, the round could not have been there prior to the shooter being downrange for the "load and make ready" command, correct?

[MarkCO]

No DQ if you can't verify that the round came from the chamber and not the tube. Can't DQ someone if you can't cite the specific rule they violated. It would be unethical to do anything else. I can see where you're going with the "it probably came from the chamber," but "probably" isn't good enough to send someone home.

This is the correct answer. If the RO is not sure a specific rule was violated, he can't DQ the shooter.

Concur.

HOWEVER, and please take this in the manner intended...with no rule to go back on, the gravest error lies with the MD and RM for not having a written set of rules. Making up a rule after an infraction is just as bad as breaking one IMHO. I've made a few enemies by saying this before, but "My match, my rules" oficiating as you see fit at the time is a huge liability and is NOT fair sport. Adopt a set of published and vetted rules and then abide by them.

[Howard762]

Bassman, They were not mandatory, but can you chamber flag a pre-loaded shotgun? I guess you can, but I don't know that I've ever seen it. They will be mandatory next time.

MarkCO, We did have a set of written rules. We stated before the match that we were using IMGA rules. They don't cover this, which we had never considered beforehand. Now we're trying to make sure it doesn't happen again. I'm trying to learn from past mistakes.

Here's what I've got so far, and I'm not complaining, I will gladly bear responsibilty for this. It is mine, and the RO's fault. I(as MD/RM) am responsible for making a policy that someone was overseeing pre-loading. Which they may not have been doing, and if they were might not have done it properly. I can fix that next time. I(again as MD/RM) should have made chamber flags mandatory, and I will do so next time. The RO should have checked the condition of the chamber, and the RO has to stop the shooter at the time of the foul, not later. I knew that, and instructed the ROs of that at least twice before the match. The shooter may or may not have done anything wrong and we will never know that because we as a staff failed in this instance.

I did not DQ the shooter, for the aforehand stated reasons, just so you know. I thought, and still do think it was the right call. It did not ruin an otherwise great match, but it has been discussed to death locally.

I appreciate your input.

[59Bassman]

Bassman, They were not mandatory, but can you chamber flag a pre-loaded shotgun? I guess you can, but I don't know that I've ever seen it. They will be mandatory next time.

The only way I can see it happening if the shooter had a flag is if there was a round dropped down into the chamber, followed by the flag, and a closed bolt. Something to keep the ejector from contacting it.

I have seen matches were a shotgun is pre-loaded with an empty chamber and closed bolt (to speed up the match). The bolt is then retracted far enough to insert the chamber flag, but not far enough to feed a round from the mag tube. It takes some getting used to, but it's possible to have a shotgun with a full tube and a chamber flag in an empty chamber.

Our local club sells chamber flags 2 for $5, they're available at each match.

[MarkCO]

Fair enough Howard.

Some chamber flags are very diffucult to put in with a loaded tube. Some stages at USPSA nationals required themn (while others did not) and I could not get the flag I had into the SLP with the tube loaded. Used a folded piece of cardbaord instead.

As for the Rules, I'm not sure IMGA is an "official" organization at this point, but there are several versions of the rules out there from the last 2003 update to some "specific" match rules that have been adapted from the base IMGA rules. I think a lot of us assume that the SMM3G rules are the defacto "IMGA" rules.

I have two very different views of pre-loading shotguns. As a CRO working a stage, I prefer to have everyone pre-load at one time. That way I can make sure it is done correctly and any manipulation not under my control is therefore a safety violation.

As a MD and a competitor, I prefer to have preloading done one at a time when "in the hole". This prevents full tubes from going into cases in the event of rain etc., helps the stage move along a bit faster and allows the competitor to keep their gun clean and or dry in dusty or wet conditions. In most mathces I have had no issues with the CRO allowing us to load on our own. With newer competitors, this can be an issue and from a MD perspective, you may then need an additional RO to watch a pre-load area.

Sounds like you have a firm grasp of it now.

[CJW]

You can certainly flag a shotgun with tube loaded; I do it all the time with my Benelli. Just load the tube, pull the bolt back part-way (like ghost loading) and insert the flag. Since I have not had my bolt modified for ghost loading (yet), I can't stage a round onto the carrier while the bolt it out of battery on the flag. On the other hand, if somebody could ghost load, it would be possible to be tube loaded, round on the carrier, and gun flagged---then when the shooter pulls the bolt back to remove the flag, if he's not careful, he could end up chambering the round on the carrier...

I have no clue if that's what happened to the shooter described in the OP, but it is one possible explanation of what might have happened. If I were the shooter, I don't think I could honestly argue against a DQ, as the status of the gun is clearly my responsibility, but I'd have some unkind thoughts about an RO who didn't verify an empty chamber at start, either...

Edited December 19, 2011 by CJW

[dmshozer1]

Fair enough Howard.

Some chamber flags are very diffucult to put in with a loaded tube. Some stages at USPSA nationals required themn (while others did not) and I could not get the flag I had into the SLP with the tube loaded. Used a folded piece of cardbaord instead.

As for the Rules, I'm not sure IMGA is an "official" organization at this point, but there are several versions of the rules out there from the last 2003 update to some "specific" match rules that have been adapted from the base IMGA rules. I think a lot of us assume that the SMM3G rules are the defacto "IMGA" rules.

I have two very different views of pre-loading shotguns. As a CRO working a stage, I prefer to have everyone pre-load at one time. That way I can make sure it is done correctly and any manipulation not under my control is therefore a safety violation.

As a MD and a competitor, I prefer to have preloading done one at a time when "in the hole". This prevents full tubes from going into cases in the event of rain etc., helps the stage move along a bit faster and allows the competitor to keep their gun clean and or dry in dusty or wet conditions. In most mathces I have had no issues with the CRO allowing us to load on our own. With newer competitors, this can be an issue and from a MD perspective, you may then need an additional RO to watch a pre-load area.

Sounds like you have a firm grasp of it now.

Don't put the chamber flag in the chamber.

After loading the tube, pull the bolt back just enough to insert the pointed part of the flag

between the bolt face and chamber.

[Nik Habicht]

Howard,

here's my take: If the RO supervising the preload saw the shooter chamber a round, in an area where that was not appropriate/where the shooter knew the chamber needed to remain empty, then match DQ.

If the RO running the shooter -- from Make Ready on -- is positive that the shooter did not rack the gun during between Make Ready and the Beep, and then saw a round cycle out of the action after the beep = match DQ.

If the RO running the shooter isn't positive of that, thinks maybe the shooter could have racked the gun during Make Ready, then reshoot (under USPSA rules.)

Essentially the takeaway points are this: You need a very experienced RO, who is familiar with the different types of shotguns, to supervise a preloading station. That RO needsa to walk the shooter to the start position, and supervise him/her until the handoff to the RO running the shooter is accomplished.

[whistlepig]

I was only being partialy serious.

Anyone with Elmer Fudd as his avatar, and a Mel Tillis quote from Cannonbal Run at the end of each post should be taken with a grain of salt.

This should be supplemented by a Terry Bradshaw quote................

[Lead-Head]

I was only being partialy serious.

Anyone with Elmer Fudd as his avatar, and a Mel Tillis quote from Cannonbal Run at the end of each post should be taken with a grain of salt.

This should be supplemented by a Terry Bradshaw quote................

Yesss!!! Somebody gets it!

[glock34shooter]

Well lets actually get the other side of the story from the RO since it was me. As the shooter started the stage and immediately racked his shotgun a round was ejected from the chamber. It did not dribble out, it came out in a manner consistant to hand ejecting or shooting a round from a shotgun. The shotgun worked for the entire stage, so it was not broken, ie rounds coming directly from the mag tube and falling out of the ejection port. I let the shooter continue because I did not know if it was simply a penalty or a DQ. There was no safety issue at any time during the shooting of the stage. After the shooter/team was done with the stage, I went to his team mate and made him aware of the situation and started looking for the MD for a ruling (penalty, stage DQ, or match DQ). I was not able to find the MD immediately because he was not on the stage. I did find the MD a few minutes later while he was talking to the shooter about the same incident. I explained to him the situation and I told him I did not know what his match rule was for this situation. He stated he did not have a rule, and asked me my opinion. I told him at the matches I run it would be a DQ, but it was ultimately his call. Now there are other things going on that the OP/MD did not say about the shooter, but that is between him and I. I am utterly insulted by the insinuation I did anything wrong, as opposed to the shooter taking responsiblity for his mistake.

In response to the OP's listed concerns. I have been to (shot and ROed) many matches (local, state, and national level) and at no time has an RO checked the chamber of a preloaded and decked on the stage shotgun. The shooter is responsible for the condition of his equipment. He was given clear instructions and did not follow them. There is no doubt in my mind or the witnesses that the round was ejected from the chamber. I let the shooter continue to shoot because there was no posted rules for this situation (penalty, stage DQ, or match DQ), and he did not commit any safety violations during the stage. He was given the benefit of the doubt until I could confer with the MD. lastly since the stage did not have a load and make ready portion then it did not happen then.

As I told the MD at the match I did not care what the call was DQ or not, but he had to make a call. The shooter, the witnesses, and I all know what happened. The conversation that was held between the MD and I addressed all the issues. I think that there are other reasons the group of shooter in York are talking about this situation, and it isn't because of anything I did or didn't do.

Matt

[Outsydlooknin75]

You say that no safety violation was made during the stage. But I think having a hot gun on a cold range when not instructed to have one is a major safety violation.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

[glock34shooter]

I agree with you, however there was no specific rule so it had to go to the MD for a call. In my mind and the rules of my matches it would be a DQ for having a loaded gun prior to the start of the stage unless under the instructions of the RO, but it was not my match or rules. I guess it is not worded well. The downside with 3gun is there are no true governing body or consistant rules. Most every 3gun match has a different set of rules. They are similar but not the same. 3gun is also different than ISPC/USPSA in regards to reshoots and how and when they are given. Many of the DQs in 3gun are given after the shooter has completed a stage, like when a shooter grounded a unsafe weapon or the safety came off unless a safety violation (180 or ND) ocurred during the shooting of the stage.

My issue is not with the DQ or not, it is with the MD implying the RO was the one at fault.

Matt

[Howard762]

"My issue is not with the DQ or not, it is with the MD implying the RO was the one at fault."

That was not my intention. I believe I did state that I would take any blame. The RO wasn't perfect but we weren't paying him to be. If the RO had DQed the shooter I would have backed him. He did not. I backed that decision too. He asked me what to do well after the fact and I did not honestly know. I asked several more experienced competitors and some said DQ more said no. I gave the shooter the benefit of the doubt and came here to ask opinionsso I and others could learn from it not assign blame.

Howard

Edited January 6, 2012 by Howard762

[StealthyBlagga]

One further comment. After the "make ready" command, there is nothing in the rules that prohibits the chamber being loaded unless this is stipulated in the WSB. If the WSB specifically said "loaded chamber at start = match DQ", then you might be able to DQ him (assuming the RO could be confident this did indeed happen). However, if the WSB just said "empty chamber at start" but DQ was not spelled out as a clear consequence, then the penalty would more properly be a procedural penalty (+5 seconds under IMA-SMM3G rules) for failing to assume the required start condition. The devil is in the detail of what the WSB actually said.

One thing this incident does highlight is the importance of having a dedicated and attentive RO manning the pre-loading location. It is his job to confirm that the chamber is empty during the pre-load, if that is required. This "violation" should have been caught there. If you don't have enough good folks to man the pre-load location, then don't allow pre-loading.

Edited January 6, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[Nik Habicht]

One further comment. After the "make ready" command, there is nothing in the rules that prohibits the chamber being loaded unless this is stipulated in the WSB. If the WSB specifically said "loaded chamber at start = match DQ", then you might be able to DQ him (assuming the RO could be confident this did indeed happen). However, if the WSB just said "empty chamber at start" but DQ was not spelled out as a clear consequence, then the penalty would more properly be a procedural penalty (+5 seconds under IMA-SMM3G rules) for failing to assume the required start condition. The devil is in the detail of what the WSB actually said.

One thing this incident does highlight is the importance of having a dedicated and attentive RO manning the pre-loading location. It is his job to confirm that the chamber is empty during the pre-load, if that is required. This "violation" should have been caught there. If you don't have enough good folks to man the pre-load location, then don't allow pre-loading.

I'll add to that: In my mind, the most experienced RO assigned to the stage should be manning the preloading station/controlling the preloading competitor through handoff. A preloaded shotgun (tube only) is not a cold gun -- and there's lots of other activity going on at the same time. That deserves the utmost care and attention that the match can muster....

[A well Earled machine]

I've used "grey area" situations like this one where a rule may not have been broken but it just didn't go down right as a teaching point. Instead of a DQ, an opportunity to gather the squad and go over what went down and finish with "Let's ALL make sure it doesn’t happen again!" This almost always is preferable to being the a-hole R/O who sends a guy home for no good reason.

If the goal is a safely run stage this is another tool to make it so - it has worked well for me.

Earl