Kill_Switch Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I'm in the camp that there needs to be matches that do not include the shotgun. In the modern combat environment, shotguns play a fairly minor role. In my experience I have only seen them used in the already mentioned roles of door breaching and less lethal engagement. This is not to say that there is anything wrong with the sport as it sits, if that's the kind of match that you want to shoot and enjoy shooting, great keep shooting them. However there is a large untapped section of shooters that just flat out dislike shooting shotgun as they don't feel it is a skill set that fits into what it practically applicable for them. I fall into that sector. I hate shooting shotgun, I don't enjoy it probably because it isn't a skill set that is practically applicable to me. Which really sucks when the shotgun can make or break the match. If I'm playing the normal 3 gun game, then I can suck it up and I won't complain, but I really prefer a venue where the shotgun isn't a factor or at the very least isn't employed in the way it is in a traditional 3 gun match. Which it really seems to me to be pretty arbitrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Clays on swinging frames, especially really tall ones like they had at the Mississippi 3-gun last year (anyone got a picture of those?), simulate "flying" clays pretty well. The advantage is a consistent target presentation, and the target is still around to score if you don't hit it. You could probably modify a swinger to just swing once and then lock, allowing only one target presentation. Just putting it out there. I like a few moving targets too, but flying/flipping clays are troublesome due to the scoring/consistency issues discussed here. DanO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Gary Welborn has a couple modified drop-turners that hold clays- one holds one clay on each side, the other holds two clays on each side. Real easy to tell during scoring if the shooter did not get their hit. Anyone that has shot the KY State Multigun has seen them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 YES, YES!!! The above 2 examples are a great use of clay birds that are "moving Targets" AND ARE EASILY SCORED, NO GUESSING!!! SMM3G and RM3G (and others) both use swinger frames that hold 1, 2, or more birds. SMM3G has the "bobber birds" target frames as well. Any major match could utilize some kind of linear moving target with clay birds just as easily as a moving cardboard target, and I have seen moving cardboard at major matches. Any system used where the clays eventually come to rest without being broken by "coming to rest" (i.e. after being thrown), is completely verifiable as far as scoring goes, just like cardboard. Flying and Flipping clays are what we have to work on to make them verifiable somehow and repeatable in presentation. For a major match to use the present technology and methods (i.e. RO's calling hits on flyers) is to do a diservice to the competitors. ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Eric, Karl at GT Targets is making a windmill and a triple swinger that hold clays. The swinger also doubles to hold a standard target. My buddy bought a windmill, and I needed a swinger to practice on, so have one of those. The windmill may be too carnival like, but, so are texas stars and polish plate racks. He has a video in the dealers forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigS. Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 The 08 DPMS multi-gun match had a mover that held 5 clays it started and stopped behind cover. a great idea and easy to verify the hits , it made you shoot like a house on fire!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 How is it that entire shooting sports (skeet, trap and sporting clays) revolve around busting aerial clay targets but we feel that they are too difficult or inconsistent to score? If flying clay is good enough for the Olympics, I think we can manage to score them them too. I am all for flying clay target presentations. We push the other 2 gun to their limits and potential, why not so with the shotgun. Plus flying clay are more fun to shoot than simply knocking over pepper poppers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 How is it that entire shooting sports (skeet, trap and sporting clays) revolve around busting aerial clay targets but we feel that they are too diffciult or inconsistent to score? If flying clay is good enoguh for the Olympics, I think we can manage to score them them too. I am all for flying clay target presentations. We push the other 2 gun to their limits and potential, why not so with the shotgun. Plus flying clay are more fun to shoot than simply knocking over pepper poppers. Now, kellyn...we are only 3 gunners this scoring thing is tough, no really it is, dam it, quit your laughing right now! As I said before I like flying clays and like most any target you may or may not get the score you deserve, that is how it goes. Yes I know paper can be challenged (as it remains available to to so) but we have ALL seen shooters get credit for a paper hit they didn't deserve. "oh yea man that's a double"..............Bullcrap! I am however really toying with the idea of "paper clays" Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 There is a difference as to breaking percentage from a "single pellet" related to spinning clays (as thrown from a trap) vs. flipped clays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBOpen Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 How about a metal ring (like a canning jar lid) for mass with a replaceable cardboard (shrink-wrapped?) disk scoring surface? How is it that entire shooting sports (skeet, trap and sporting clays) revolve around busting aerial clay targets but we feel that they are too diffciult or inconsistent to score? If flying clay is good enoguh for the Olympics, I think we can manage to score them them too. I am all for flying clay target presentations. We push the other 2 gun to their limits and potential, why not so with the shotgun. Plus flying clay are more fun to shoot than simply knocking over pepper poppers. Now, kellyn...we are only 3 gunners this scoring thing is tough, no really it is, dam it, quit your laughing right now! As I said before I like flying clays and like most any target you may or may not get the score you deserve, that is how it goes. Yes I know paper can be challenged (as it remains available to to so) but we have ALL seen shooters get credit for a paper hit they didn't deserve. "oh yea man that's a double"..............Bullcrap! I am however really toying with the idea of "paper clays" Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) How is it that entire shooting sports (skeet, trap and sporting clays) revolve around busting aerial clay targets but we feel that they are too diffciult or inconsistent to score? If flying clay is good enoguh for the Olympics, I think we can manage to score them them too. I am all for flying clay target presentations. We push the other 2 gun to their limits and potential, why not so with the shotgun. Plus flying clay are more fun to shoot than simply knocking over pepper poppers. You make a convincing arguement, counselor, ....ALMOST!!!! None of the traditional clay sports (all the way up to the mighty OLYMPICS) have the competitor on the clock, engaging a target then moving on (rapidly) (Quick...run to Skeet position 2 and engage...), have the main scorer (RO) also responsible for ensuring the shooter's safety and gun handling and moving with him and trying to remember every clay target break over the entire stage. How many times have we seen an RO at the end of the stage turn to the ARO and say "...now he got all the birds except #3....didn't he???" In traditional clay sports, all eyes are on a SINGLE target, and watched for the entire flight path, no time limit, just the competitor and a SINGLE shot. Name one traditional clay game except the STC flurry where the shooter can take additional shots at a target. So, yes, they have got their scoring system "down" in the traditional clay games, but it doesn't work for 3-gun. ericm Edited November 1, 2011 by ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 And Patrick..... Conversely, we have all seen a shooter get docked for a missed flying bird, when that bird clearly had a small chip or bb hole in it.....................OH, WAIT, NO WE HAVEN'T!!!!..... .......BECAUSE WE CAN'T, CAN WE????? If we didn't have enough to practice already, with flying birds, 3 gunners also have to practice their Jedi powers, and be ready to use them on the RO. Jedi:...."that bird was clearly hit"...... RO:......."yes, that bird was hit, these are not the 'droids we're looking for, you may go....." ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Eric, Eric, Eric (if that is your real name). I don't counsel anyone. My job is accusing people of stuff. And the STC makes a great example of how we CAN score flying clays. The ROs have to keep track of clay flying everywhere with 3 shooters going at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 Before you accuse.... STC : STILL NOT 3 GUN! (think about how STC is done) ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Before you accuse.... STC : STILL NOT 3 GUN! (think about how STC is done) ericm Dang, I just spilled my popcorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 And Patrick..... Conversely, we have all seen a shooter get docked for a missed flying bird, when that bird clearly had a small chip or bb hole in it.....................OH, WAIT, NO WE HAVEN'T!!!!..... .......BECAUSE WE CAN'T, CAN WE????? If we didn't have enough to practice already, with flying birds, 3 gunners also have to practice their Jedi powers, and be ready to use them on the RO. Jedi:...."that bird was clearly hit"...... RO:......."yes, that bird was hit, these are not the 'droids we're looking for, you may go....." ericm Oh ericm...descendant of Jedi (I imagine that is the plural)...yes I have witnessed this travesty foisted upon our fellow sportsmen and it saddens me. It saddens me that I have not mastered the art of "pattern fringing" so may carefully pierce the clay with but one pellet! If we were shooting buck or a single bullet at the clay a single hole would be the minimum required, but we are shooting shot filled shells and to me bust it or buy the miss...Unless you can call that single pellet hole before you fire the shot! I understand the "bail on flying clays" thinking but I do not agree with the think. This is a fun and hopefully fruitful debate. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actionshooter Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) I know our sports roots were based on real world scenarios and I'll never forget my 1st SOF match in '02. But the reality is the sport has evolved and for the most part, has drifted pretty far from anything that is even close too a combat situation. Say again? In the past year major matches have featured stages that involved shooting in caves, with night vision and supressed weapons, tunnels, bunkers, suspended in a rapelling harness (princess gate), from vehicles, exiting vehicles, underneath vehicles, carrying dummies simulating wounded comrades, one handed and support side firearm manipulation/shooting (if this is just a game, why would you ever need to do that?) all while shooting at humanoid targets....now what on earth do any of those skills have anything to do with combat? Stages aren't literal combat scenarios, but many are clearly inspired by them and test skills similar those used in combat. There's also a fair mix of carnival style stages, but the martial roots of action shooting are still present. As eric mentioned they used flying clays and shotguns to teach target lead in WW2. Maybe clays in 3 gun are just a compromise since we can't generally fire rifles in the air and not many people own belt-feds. lol. I don't dispute there are still a lot of stages and maybe even whole matches that are based on combat scenerios,but I think that 75% of the stages are circus acts. I don't mean that in a negative way....circus acts are fun! Back in the day there was no such thing as a clay flipper, texas star, polish thingy and all the other non-tactical targets that are seen at nearly every match in the country. Shotgun was buck/slug only and a lot of the steel didn't seem to fall that fast with a 9mm (or at all). Thats how this sport is getting/gone away from its roots. I would shoot matches either way but I prefer the stages like they are today. Edited November 1, 2011 by actionshooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 OK, fruitful it is..... I would be willing to accept (more like feel somewhat more comfortable with) a stage using flying bird traps, activated by whatever stage means (falling poppers, shooter pulling rope, shooter calling for target....I've seen them all) IF there were DEDICATED MATCH STAFF whose only function was to call those targets as hit or missed, and then queried at the end of the stage by the RO and ARO (scoring). This is similar to having match staff "in the pits" to score cardboard targets at distance and call in by radio. The shooter pretty much has to accept those calls, knowing that the "pit man" is unbiased to the degree of anoninimity to the shooter. Funny story.....I have seen this fairly good method used on stages at a major match, where other stages AT THE SAME MATCH used the old, tired, single RO to call multple targets from multiple traps, and try to keep it straight at the end and resist all attempts by numerous Jedi to mind trick him. Consistancy is our friend in these endevors. ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Before you accuse.... STC : STILL NOT 3 GUN! (think about how STC is done) ericm If a match can score 3 guys wailing away at 50 clays at the same time, I think it is possible to score 1 dude wailing away at one clay at a time. I will bring up whatever charges that I see fit against you later. When are you back in AZ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 It's been my limited experience with STC, that they use one person for every 2 clay throwers, so that's 3 people counting clays outside the RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 My 3 gun experience is limited, so my $.02 may not be worth even that much. I don't seen why a single pellet hole in a stationary clay would count, when a steel plate must fall to count. Now, the High Plains Challenge paints targets between shooters I imagine, as the driving forces behind that match are always calling for it to be done at all matches. So, wouldn't a single pellet strike on a freshly painted target be a hit? I'm with Mr Kelley, bust the darn clay. Incosistency with flippers is maddening, especially when the guy in front of you knocks all the poppers down, has the clays all go 15 feet high and easily powders all 4 of them. You get up, hit the poppers only to have 1 clay go 10 feet high, and the others barely 5 or 6 feet, and get 2 or 3 misses. I recently bought 2 MGM flippers, the ones with the fiberglass arm. I have them and the full size poppers mounted on 1/4 sheets of 1/2 inch plywood. They toss the clays much more consistently, and because everything is bolted together, if the popper moves, so does the flipper. The large plywood base keeps the popper from sinking into the ground as it repeatedly falls. Another option could be a manual sporting clays trap, set up for Teal, using a light spring. Even in stronger wind, good altitude would be attained. If a club has the clays resources, such as five stand there are more possibilities. A few weeks ago, a friend of mine ran a shotgun only match in Rhode Island. Since he'd shot Team Challenge matches and has been shooting skeet since he was a kid, he felt that a shotgun is for aerial targets. One stage was set up with 6 traps. Trap 1 was at about 7:00 and threw towards 1:00, trap 2 was at 5:00 and threw towards 11:00, trap 3 was at 3:00 and threw towards 9:30-10:00, traps 4 and 5 were offset from 12:00 and threw straight back towards the shooter who was at 6:00, trap 6 was at 9:00 and threw towards 2:00-2:30. A sequence of 25 birds were thrown. 3 simultaneous pairs, then singles in order from traps 1-6 until the 25 birds cycled. A 4 second delay was between the targets. You could load from your gear or from a loading block that was made for the Team Challenge. From the start, it took 84 seconds for the stage to cycle through. 2 people counted the hits. Even the people that had very low hits were laughing when they finished. I guess that kind of stage would be like shooting a whole lot of grenades as they came by. I'll now go back to observing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 It's been my limited experience with STC, that they use one person for every 2 clay throwers, so that's 3 people counting clays outside the RO. THANK YOU, DocMedic!! The prosecution rests...... ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 ....and a parable... A Major Match: the Bianchi Cup The stage: the Mover What if: the Mover randomly, with no regard for shooter status, did the following: 1. dribbled out 3 feet and then dropped to the ground 2. streaked across the distance at double speed 3. moved normally to the middle and stopped 4. moved across the distance at half speed 5. came out with no target on the frame What if: shooters were told to "do the best they can, it's fair for everyone, nevermind the money, guns, prizes and prestige" Would we have the Bianchi Cup??? (...and please, God, tell me everyone will understand this parable is about flying and flipping clays) ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Keep the trial going, but please don't take the shotgun out of multigun. I love shooting the shotgun Hurley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 ....and a parable... A Major Match: the Bianchi Cup The stage: the Mover What if: the Mover randomly, with no regard for shooter status, did the following: 1. dribbled out 3 feet and then dropped to the ground 2. streaked across the distance at double speed 3. moved normally to the middle and stopped 4. moved across the distance at half speed 5. came out with no target on the frame What if: shooters were told to "do the best they can, it's fair for everyone, nevermind the money, guns, prizes and prestige" Would we have the Bianchi Cup??? (...and please, God, tell me everyone will understand this parable is about flying and flipping clays) ericm Understood. Quite persuasive. Thanks for the parable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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