Getting bumped to open from production

[badchad]

I like that you are trying to make it clear that mags not on the belt are not subject to the behind the hip bone requirement, but consider the all mags on table start: The SS or Prod shooter goes up to the table and starts stuffing mags into the waist band of his pants, or into pockets that are in front of the hip bone, and then goes on to start shooting the rest of the stage retrieving and using them.

I honestly don't see that as a problem, just a potentially faster or slower freesytle option.

[badchad]

So now we are going to change a couple of rules?

Sure. Jake do you realize that all anyone is trying to do here is to get the rule book to actually say, what everyone thought it said, prior to the March/April issue of Front Sight? Were not really looking for change here, were looking for things to go back an interpretation of the rules that worked flawlessly for years. Were looking to get away from a new interpretation of an old rule that you yourself have already agreed is “silly.”

“So it will be okay to have a shirt say with 5 pockets across the front and I can reload from them?”

As I read 5.2.4 it implies your belt is where your primary mags should go with just additional mags allowed in pockets. One could if they wanted explicitly forbid front shirt pockets if they wanted to, but if you ask me, I might enjoy seeing a shooter try to make a go at reloading from shirt pockets. I think that might be kind of funny.

[Skydiver]

I "rewrote" the rule a couple pages back. Anyone see any potential unintended consequences there?

Keep in mind I have no dog in this hunt. I've never stored or retrieved from/to my front pocket. i make ready from my 6th mag pouch (i have more "real estate" than aztecdriver does ) and when I ULSC my mag goes into my front pouch. Simple as pie.

That said, my suggestion;

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor retrieves a magazine from a location that fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire after the start signal, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

Yes. As I'm reading your revised 6.2.5.1, I won't get bumped to Open if I have a thumbrest on my Limited gun. I'm quite sure that wasn't your intent. Probably need a little more wordsmithing.

[SDM]

How do you know where in the front pocket the magazine was? I have some pants/shorts that if the mag is pushed against the seam, will be behind my first pouch. If it's pushed to the front, it's well in front of the point of the hip.

For the time being MDs need to address this during the shooters meeting. If I travel, pay for a room, match fee, ammo, etc. then get bumped to open for putting my last mag in my pocket (rather than dropping in mud or dust), I'd be a little upset. Probably have my "What I hate" thread closed for being shooting related

If you remember, if you were there, when I was RM last year at Area 8 I did just that during the shooters meeting.

Gary, I wasn't there but that's what I'm talking about. At the VA/MD sectional (May), on my last stage, the RO brought it up during the walk through. I'd read FS and here about so I was and had been ok at "Make Ready". However, at A8 this year, at ULSC, 10 times I put the mag in my front pocket. I should have been bumped after the first stage. From now on it will go in the back, I hadn't thought about the issue at the end of the stage.

[spanky]

I "rewrote" the rule a couple pages back. Anyone see any potential unintended consequences there?

Keep in mind I have no dog in this hunt. I've never stored or retrieved from/to my front pocket. i make ready from my 6th mag pouch (i have more "real estate" than aztecdriver does ) and when I ULSC my mag goes into my front pouch. Simple as pie.

That said, my suggestion;

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire or if a competitor retrieves a magazine from a location that fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire after the start signal, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

Yes. As I'm reading your revised 6.2.5.1, I won't get bumped to Open if I have a thumbrest on my Limited gun. I'm quite sure that wasn't your intent. Probably need a little more wordsmithing.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire or if a competitor retrieves a magazine from a location that fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire after the start signal, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

[Skydiver]

Working off Spanky's wording, here's my stab at it:

6.2.5.1 The competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, or will shoot for noscore if after the start signal:

6.2.5.1.1 The competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declaredDivision; or

6.2.5.1.2 The competitor retrieves a magazine from a location that fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division.

It still has holes and ambiguity in it, though. Need to mull it over some more.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Skydiver

[GeorgeInNePa]

This rule also applies to Single Stack.

It really needs a simple change to add in a line "mags carried in the front pocket may not be used after the start signal'.

"Mags carried forward of the hip bone may not be used after the start signal."

Seems simple enough.

[GeorgeInNePa]

WOW! I thought this was beaten to death right before the Single Stack Nationals.

To me the rule is simply stated. It is not ambiguous. There is no judgement call i.e., if ..... then .... otherwise ...... unless.....

Sure the rule bugged me at first because like many folks wearing 5.11 I put my first mag in my front pocket. I stopped doing it after the rule was clarified.

I vote to just leave it alone.

I would second that vote.

It is a rule that doesn't need to be there. It serves only as a "gotcha". It has nothing to do with safety or fair/even competition.

(this has probably already been covered, but I just wanted to chime in.)

[GeorgeInNePa]

Just wondering what other rules the "brilliant and illustrious" members of the BOD should look at. By the way neither of these adjectives describes me.

How about accidentally loading 11 round in your Production mag?

How about having a magazine that is a cat's whisker too long?

How about having a gun that almost fits in the box, but not quiet?

How about having a gun that is 0.01 over weight?

How about chronographing 164.99 or even worse 124.99?

The front pocket ruling is consistent with Appendix D4 and D5 equipment position. Tough lick to be moved to Open for a simple mistake. However, all of the above examples, except the last, result in the same thing. Chronographing 124.99 moves you past Open to out of the match. Another tough lick.

It almost seems like you are personally insulted.

[remoandiris]

WOW! I thought this was beaten to death right before the Single Stack Nationals.

To me the rule is simply stated. It is not ambiguous. There is no judgement call i.e., if ..... then .... otherwise ...... unless.....

Sure the rule bugged me at first because like many folks wearing 5.11 I put my first mag in my front pocket. I stopped doing it after the rule was clarified.

I vote to just leave it alone.

I would second that vote.

It is a rule that doesn't need to be there. It serves only as a "gotcha". It has nothing to do with safety or fair/even competition.

(this has probably already been covered, but I just wanted to chime in.)

It is only a gotcha if you don't know the rules. At a level III match or higher, competitors should know the rules. At a lower level match, the RO or MD could educate a competitor. I agree with the Gary, there is no reason to change this rule. The BOD will do what they think is best for USPSA.

[GrumpyOne]

Let's step back and take a different look at this.

I know there are always going to be some, but how many new shooters show up to a match and have absolutley no idea what the division requirements are, or where their gun even fits in, or have never heard of the rule book? By showing up, they have taken the initiative to play the game, and therefore need to play by the rules. You wouldn't or shouldn't expect the new(er) shooters to know each and every rule, but they should have a basic understanding of the rules before showing up at their first match, be that a level 1 or higher. It's like any other game...Most watch for a while, then jump in, learning the rest as they go.

It's like learning to drive a car: You must take a test before you can get your restricted license, then during that time, you must have a legal adult on the front seat beside you. But, the essence is not the test, it's the reading of the laws and learning by watching what is going on around you, before you take the test, that makes a person able to drive the car.

If they have showed up at a match, then either they have researched it on the internet, or it was by word of mouth, from/by an experienced shooter, who should have at least asked what they were shooting, asked what gear they had, and told them what division they would best be suited to with the equipment they have. If they have researched online, then I have no doubt that they stumbled across the rule book, or at the very least, some mention of it, and quite possibly have read part of it, or all of it. Even if it was by word of mouth (experienced shooter), I'm sure the experienced shooter mentioned that they was a rule book, and they should at the very least peruse it before showing up, if for nothing else but the safety concerns and rules.

Yes, some of the rules are "counter-intuitive" (this is by opinion, and not all opinions are the same), but I see no ambiguity in the sections in question. In Production, all gear must be behind the hip....I'm sorry if you like putting your mags in your front pocket, but the rules say behind the hip....I have a very good friend who got bumped to Open because of a division requirement (Using a DOH with SS). He has been shooting a long time, but missed that one...it happens...He will never get bumped to Open again for the same violation though, and who would? People learn from their mistakes much better than from their successes....Who here remembers the first time they shot all A's on a stage or match? Probably not many...Who here remembers the first time they got DQ'ed or bumped to Open and what it was for? I'll bet everyone who has had that happen remembers it vividly, and has vowed to have it never happen again, in the same fashion.

An experienced shooter, flaunting the rules, should be bumped to open...An experienced shooter not having knowledge of the rules, should be bumped to open (ignorance is no excuse).

New shooters do deserve some leeway, but let's not give them leeway by changing the rules. Ask at the shooters meeting before the match if there any new shooters. If there are, explain to them that there are rules that must be followed (and not just the safety rules). Explain to them the consequences of not following the rules (bump to Open, DQ, etc.). Explain to them that even though this is their first match, all the rules will be followed, to the letter, with no exception, and that the rules will be followed the same way if they show up at next months match.

The leeway I'm suggesting is that at their first match, let them shoot it for no score (if they so choose) and just let them have fun. The safety rules still apply, but division rules mean squat. If they choose to shoot for score, then all rules apply, by the rule book. Make that known to them. If they are interested, they will find the appropriate gear to shoot in what division they choose, and will have ample time to read the rule book before their next match.

I shoot Production...I'm not terribly good, but I have fun. I read the rule book many times before I decided to shoot a match. I expect the rules to be followed (and follow them the best that I can), the same way, everytime, regardless of who the shooter is, or what their situation is. They are there for a reason, to make this sport equitable for all shooters....

If we (I say we, as USPSA members) start making exceptions to rules because we don't like them, or think they are "counter intuitive", then where will it end? An El Pres with a facing down range start? Diamond Cutter with some of the No Shoots missing? Long Range Standards at 10 yards, all freestyle?

If the BOD changes the rule, so be it...But it isn't changed now, nor will it be changed before your next match (hopefully!). I suggest that anyone expecting to play (and compete) in this sport know the rules, and follow them, unless they want to deal with the consequences....

[atbarr]

I have a very good friend who got bumped to Open because of a division requirement (Using a DOH with SS). He has been shooting a long time, but missed that one...it happens...He will never get bumped to Open again for the same violation though, and who would?

Now who in the hell would be that stupid?

[GrumpyOne]

I have a very good friend who got bumped to Open because of a division requirement (Using a DOH with SS). He has been shooting a long time, but missed that one...it happens...He will never get bumped to Open again for the same violation though, and who would?

Now who in the hell would be that stupid?

I'm not telling.....

No names were mentioned to protect the innocent....

[atbarr]

Innocent?

[GrumpyOne]

Innocent?

Well, guilty of that infraction, at least....

[aztecdriver]

Let's step back and take a different look at this.

I know there are always going to be some, but how many new shooters show up to a match and have absolutley no idea what the division requirements are, or where their gun even fits in, or have never heard of the rule book? By showing up, they have taken the initiative to play the game, and therefore need to play by the rules. You wouldn't or shouldn't expect the new(er) shooters to know each and every rule, but they should have a basic understanding of the rules before showing up at their first match, be that a level 1 or higher. It's like any other game...Most watch for a while, then jump in, learning the rest as they go.

It's like learning to drive a car: You must take a test before you can get your restricted license, then during that time, you must have a legal adult on the front seat beside you. But, the essence is not the test, it's the reading of the laws and learning by watching what is going on around you, before you take the test, that makes a person able to drive the car.

[snip]

I'm going to disagree with this - it's nothing like driving a car, it's like learning to race a car. Most people that come out to a match know the 4 rules, they know how to shoot, most times not that well at all, and you get a bit of bruce willis gun handling. (pointed up at 45 degree when moving, etc) But I'm not going to expect a shooter to have read the rulebook, or even know one exists --- their first night -- their second - I'm going to expect them to have "STARTED" to try and digest it. Expecting, nor demanding that first timers have looked at the rules is an extremely hard press - and this is from someone that sees about 4-10 new shooters a month.

The "written test" for starting in this sport is knowing the big 4. The practical experience (ie, driving with your dad in the car) is the first couple of level 1 matches and your drivers test is your first major --- if you really want to apply the analogy.

[GrumpyOne]

Let's step back and take a different look at this.

I know there are always going to be some, but how many new shooters show up to a match and have absolutley no idea what the division requirements are, or where their gun even fits in, or have never heard of the rule book? By showing up, they have taken the initiative to play the game, and therefore need to play by the rules. You wouldn't or shouldn't expect the new(er) shooters to know each and every rule, but they should have a basic understanding of the rules before showing up at their first match, be that a level 1 or higher. It's like any other game...Most watch for a while, then jump in, learning the rest as they go.

It's like learning to drive a car: You must take a test before you can get your restricted license, then during that time, you must have a legal adult on the front seat beside you. But, the essence is not the test, it's the reading of the laws and learning by watching what is going on around you, before you take the test, that makes a person able to drive the car.

[snip]

I'm going to disagree with this - it's nothing like driving a car, it's like learning to race a car. Most people that come out to a match know the 4 rules, they know how to shoot, most times not that well at all, and you get a bit of bruce willis gun handling. (pointed up at 45 degree when moving, etc) But I'm not going to expect a shooter to have read the rulebook, or even know one exists --- their first night -- their second - I'm going to expect them to have "STARTED" to try and digest it. Expecting, nor demanding that first timers have looked at the rules is an extremely hard press - and this is from someone that sees about 4-10 new shooters a month.

The "written test" for starting in this sport is knowing the big 4. The practical experience (ie, driving with your dad in the car) is the first couple of level 1 matches and your drivers test is your first major --- if you really want to apply the analogy.

Either way, the analogy still fits...All I was saying was no one is quintessentially "green" when the go to their first match. I have never heard of anyone buying their first gun and going straight to a match with it....

As far as first timers reading the rule book, to me, not reading the rule book before your first match is akin to racing in the Daytona 500, having never driven a race car before....Sure, you can do it, as driving a car is driving a car, but will you finish?

[GeorgeInNePa]

WOW! I thought this was beaten to death right before the Single Stack Nationals.

To me the rule is simply stated. It is not ambiguous. There is no judgement call i.e., if ..... then .... otherwise ...... unless.....

Sure the rule bugged me at first because like many folks wearing 5.11 I put my first mag in my front pocket. I stopped doing it after the rule was clarified.

I vote to just leave it alone.

I would second that vote.

It is a rule that doesn't need to be there. It serves only as a "gotcha". It has nothing to do with safety or fair/even competition.

(this has probably already been covered, but I just wanted to chime in.)

It is only a gotcha if you don't know the rules. At a level III match or higher, competitors should know the rules. At a lower level match, the RO or MD could educate a competitor. I agree with the Gary, there is no reason to change this rule. The BOD will do what they think is best for USPSA.

Nope, it's ridiculous. It's a gotcha, it is unnecessary, just like the original "10rds only". Remember the way it was before "10rds only, after the beep"?

It's the same. I have yet to hear "your" side of the argument from anyone in person, at a match.

Changing this will not change the game at all. It neither enhances safety, nor does it do anything to enhance or make more fair, the competition.

Changing it will remove a way for some people to go "A-ha! I've got you now!"

Of course, this is just my opinion.

I have mentioned it to JA, when I saw him at a match and I will be emailing my Area Director and whoever won the USPSA Presidential election.

[Flexmoney]

I have mentioned it to JA, when I saw him at a match and I will be emailing my Area Director and whoever won the USPSA Presidential election.

Just a point of order. Whoever won the Prez election, or the Area 5 Director position, won't take office until next year.

I'd hope this gets looked at before then.

[lugnut]

I know at least me and a couple other guys talked with our AC today. He was aware of the situation and is supportive to address this. I know there was at least on guy that got bumped to Open because of this this weekend.

I used large paper clips to keep my front pockets shut so I wouldn't make a mistake... the guys on my squad and most of the ROs got a kick out of this....

[Greg Bell]

I was unaware that this was an issue until reading this thread. I shoot IDPA probably 4-5 times more often than USPSA and my mag handling habits are going to get my in trouble with USPSA matches now. I have been starting and stopping stages using my front pocket forever. I know rules are rules, but damn this just seems silly.

[Nik Habicht]

I have never heard of anyone buying their first gun and going straight to a match with it....

I guess you haven't been a match director for a few years then? I've had new shooters show up before they even owned a gun -- shooting a friend's or relative's, with borrowed gear..... :D

Of course I also had a guy show up, at his first match with a member number lower than mine. He discovered USPSA, joined, and then waited ~ 5 years to shoot his first match....

As far as first timers reading the rule book, to me, not reading the rule book before your first match is akin to racing in the Daytona 500, having never driven a race car before....Sure, you can do it, as driving a car is driving a car, but will you finish?

I'm with Aztec on that one. I've read three (four?) rulebooks now, taken an RO class under each of the three, and still don't understand the rules as well as I'd like.....

If we're going to have a rule it should ideally concern itself with one of two things: Safety or Competitive Equity. Pulling a mag out of a pocket during "Make Ready," or stowing it after "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster" doesn't meet either of those criteria....

I can't think of another good reason to keep that -- but the devil's going to be in the details, i.e. avoiding any unintended consequences....

[aztecdriver]

I'm going to disagree with this - it's nothing like driving a car, it's like learning to race a car. Most people that come out to a match know the 4 rules, they know how to shoot, most times not that well at all, and you get a bit of bruce willis gun handling. (pointed up at 45 degree when moving, etc) But I'm not going to expect a shooter to have read the rulebook, or even know one exists --- their first night -- their second - I'm going to expect them to have "STARTED" to try and digest it. Expecting, nor demanding that first timers have looked at the rules is an extremely hard press - and this is from someone that sees about 4-10 new shooters a month.

The "written test" for starting in this sport is knowing the big 4. The practical experience (ie, driving with your dad in the car) is the first couple of level 1 matches and your drivers test is your first major --- if you really want to apply the analogy.

Either way, the analogy still fits...All I was saying was no one is quintessentially "green" when the go to their first match. I have never heard of anyone buying their first gun and going straight to a match with it....

As far as first timers reading the rule book, to me, not reading the rule book before your first match is akin to racing in the Daytona 500, having never driven a race car before....Sure, you can do it, as driving a car is driving a car, but will you finish?

How do you equate going to a local match == going to the Daytona 500?? Going to Nationals maybe - and yes, that's going to be tough to finish. How about going to local sprint car race... the same outcome applies - but I'm not prepared to equate our locals to that of the top of the auto sport. (no offense to the local match directors running quality matches!!)

Every brand new person that has shown up at our indoor match has never read the rule book... and as I said that's usually 1 to 4 per week on average. We try our best to bring them up to speed and show them where the resources are - but if they come back, it usually takes a month or so for them to get up to speed - but even then - I know it was 3 months before I even read the thing.

Probably strayed too much from the topic... back to the topic at hand - enough is enough when it comes to someone that doesn't want to adhere to division equipment. Those that have been told a couple of times needs to show them there are consequences to all rules, safety ones or the "picky" ones as well. Most every person I've given pointers on equipment takes it to heart and fixes things.

We do want to cater to the new shooter because compassion for the learning curve is something that brings people back - but it is a game, and those parts that ensure competitive equity must eventually be applied universally.

[LPatterson]

This has gotten very close to bickering about whether the rules as written are stupid or not. I've only been a RO for a short time but I was told it was part of my duties as an RO to enforce all rules not just those I wanted or liked. Without calling it a gotcha do I let a foot fault go by or maybe shooting freestyle when it should be SHO/WHO (had a stage tossed at an Area match because the RO allowed some people to put a hand on the wall SHO/WHO). Read the RO Creed, it is not us versus them it is about RO's applying the rules equability to all people.

[West Texas Granny]

Remember that old statement that ignorance of the law was no excuse. Every time I hear it I ask why judges and lawyers maintain a law library. Fact of the matter is there are just too many laws and cases to remember and understand as their are rules in the shooting sports. Someone needs to sit down and pare the growing set of rules that govern the sport or before long you will have to have a lawyer with you as you move through the COF.