This has been bugging the heck outa me....

[Don Springer]

A little background. We've started a gun club in South Texas, in the RGV, that runs primarily IDPA. We do some carbine and 3gun but that is neither here nor there.

One of our members has a security firm. Not Blackwater kinda stuff. More like rent-a-cop. He holds an anual shoot for his employees (for training and fun) that is based off of IDPA rules and allows our club to shoot along side his guys. All rules are the same, he just adds some. There is a purse but it is NOT advertised as IDPA. Before you come out of cover he wants you to "sweep" the area for threat and he places simulated guns in front of "suspects" that need to be "cleared" (kicked away). Only reason I mention these additions is I know people get uptight when you change the rules. Because our founders have all taken the IDPA SO course he asks us to help him design, set up and run his match in order to maintain safety.

K, here's what's been bugging me. During a course of fire a shooter was moving from one source of cover to another. On his way to the second source of cover he realized he had forgoten to "clear" a "weapon" from a "suspect". When he went to change his direction he slipped and rode his pistol into the ground. I watched it all happen as if it were in slow mo. Left foot was going right, right foot stopped and changed direction. Sliding! My eyes went to his hand while my hands went (unsuccessful) for his 60 year old (yet deceptively lithe) body. I watch his booger hook stretch away from the trigger guard (even though it was out of it to begin with) and go upwards and onto the slide of his XDM. When his tush hits the dirt I see his hand rotate ejection port up and he lays the pistol FLAT on the ground. At no point did he "lose control" of the pistol. Think Homer Simpson tripping with a beer in his hand. He removes his hand from the gun while the gun is firmly on the deck.

The shooter in question is actually our club Prez. He has a TON of shooting experience and I have no doubt as to his skills.

I saw:

Finger out of trigger guard.

Conscious thought when it came to what was happening with the gun.

He was completely un-shaken and expected the DQ. Cool as a cucumber.

He got up, dusted himself off and looked at me. I know I'm not supposed to coach him so I just stared at him.

He looked at me, decided I wasn't gonna stop him and picked up the gun and finished the COF. When it was done I went back and explained the scenario to everyone exactly as I did here. I asked if anyone had an objection to him finishing the match and no one did.

Here's my questions.

Was it a DQ? Technically he did not lose control of the gun, he gave it up willingly. Does that still count as loss of control?

I know any time a gun is not in "control" I should pick it up, clear it and holster it for the shooter. So should I have stoped him and offered a reshoot after clearing the gun and making it safe?

I THINK I did the right thing but I'd like opinions for future reference.

Thanks,

Don

[Joe4d]

your asking for a rule interpretation on a game that has its own made up on the spot rules so it would depend on those, thats why people should follow a set of rules or dont.

But as far as right thing I say no, A penalty or DQ should never be made in any game by a poll of the peanut gallery, either issue the DQ based on your understanding of the rules, or dont.

[Don Springer]

[kewag]

As an SO, given my interpretation of the IDPA rules, I would not DQ a competitor either under the circumstances you describe. IMO willfully, and deliberately placing a loaded firearm on the deck in a controlled manner with the muzzle in a safe direction is not the same as dropping a loaded firearm (cause for DQ) so long as his finger was in register and he didn't violate the muzzle safe points for the stage throughout the episode.I most likely would have called an immediate ceasefire however to ascertain if the shooter had injured themselves, and consulted the match director whether they get to reshoot the stage (or take the time as-of the last shot, adding the pts down and FTN's for any remaining unengaged targets). Then again assuming the shooter immediately rebounded and recovered their pistol I could also envision just letting the timer run while they complete the stage. You call 'em as you see 'em.

[Chills1994]

Maybe if IDPA allowed the use of cleated shoes this whole incident would have...err...could have been avoided???

You're actually runnIng some sort of bastardized, outlaw, Charlie's Angles version of IDPA. If the real IDPA uses "what if this happened in the real world...." scenarios, then purposely giving up control of your firearm would be bad ju ju.

The incident left him embarassed enough plus the time it tacked on was probably punishment enough.

[DaG]

Did he actually let go of the gun or did he still have it in his hand and the gun touch the ground? If he let go I would say DQ. If he did not let go and kept control of the gun and it just touched the ground then keep shooting if no 180 violation.

DaG

[Steve Koski]

Granted it wasn't an IDPA match, so you could do whatever the local rules do or don't require.

If it was an IDPA match, I'd (hopefully) refer to the rule book, and consult with the MD.

Page 6 & 7:

D. Dropping a loaded firearm. If a contestant drops a loaded

firearm during a stage or string of fire, the SO will immediately

yell “STOP”. It will then be the task of the SO to pick

up/recover the dropped firearm and render it safe and unloaded

before returning it to the contestant. The contestant will be

disqualified from the entire event as well as any side events

occurring with the match.

Did he drop it? Arguably no. He intentionally set it down in a safe direction. No DQ. I'd give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter, since no one was swept.

Koski

[astephenson]

This would not have been a DQ in IDPA.

[Flexmoney]

This would not have been a DQ in IDPA.

And, in USPSA, it would depend on if he put the gun in the condition it would be in while in the holster (active the thumb safety if a 1911).

If done properly, you can "ground" a gun in USPSA.

I'd have to look it up to see if IDPA has a similar rule to cover this...?

[johnny1gun]

Did he actually let go of the gun or did he still have it in his hand and the gun touch the ground? If he let go I would say DQ. If he did not let go and kept control of the gun and it just touched the ground then keep shooting if no 180 violation.

DaG

Love that avatar.

[Don Springer]

Thanks for the constructive advice guys. I know it was a bastardized version of the game and that's why we asked him not to advertise as IDPA. My question was an attempt to learn from the experience for future reference in case it ever happened again in a true IDPA match. Thanks again for the $.02.

[ihatepickles]

Did anyone discuss the danger present from a barrel obstruction? Hard to know if something went into the barrel with all that excitement and the muzzle very near the ground. That's the first thing I thought about when I read the narrative.

[MemphisMechanic]

I've never seem someone slip and fall that didn't either:

1) Stumble and spin around while falling and sweep something he shouldn't have, making the DQ inevitable.

2) Maintain control of the gun, get back up without hesitation, and finish the COF. (One of these was me!)

So that's an interesting situation to have to think through.

[ThreeHeadedDog]

It is interesting just how engrained gun safty is for some of us. It is telling to watch some people(like me) airgun in their homes where they will lower the muzzle of their imaginary gun if someone walks infront of them. I wont even point a finger at someone while under the idea of it being a gun but I have no issues pointing the same finger in the same manner at someone when my mind is not in "gun mode".

I have personally tripped and had similar things happen, both with pistols in practice and with rifles while hunting(with the pistol I maintained control with the rifle I grounded and left it until I was up).

[Dwain C. Baer]

Sounds like the shooter remained safe, which is great

[kevin c]

I've never seem someone slip and fall that didn't either:

1) Stumble and spin around while falling and sweep something he shouldn't have, making the DQ inevitable.

2) Maintain control of the gun, get back up without hesitation, and finish the COF. (One of these was me!)

So that's an interesting situation to have to think through.

I personally have:

Tripped running flat out and belly flopped onto the deck, gun pointed safely w/ finger out of the trigger guard all along (and I've seen others do the same).

Tripped and rolled, keeping the gun safe (the RO told me to keep going).

Fallen after rupturing my achilles tendon, gotten up and hopped to the last position to finish the stage safely.

I think for most experienced competitors in IDPA and USPSA, safety is bred into our genes right down to the molecular level. I have no problem believing the action described as being taken deliberatly and safely.

[RickB]

I've never seem someone slip and fall that didn't either:

1) Stumble and spin around while falling and sweep something he shouldn't have, making the DQ inevitable.

2) Maintain control of the gun, get back up without hesitation, and finish the COF. (One of these was me!)

So that's an interesting situation to have to think through.

I tripped on a curb exiting a pub on my way to the beer garden. I was spun around by the loss of balance, but had the presence of mind to keep the beer upright, and though I scraped-up my left elbow and left knee, and twisted my right ankle, the beer was still half full, and nobody got "swept" by the spray. I'd say no harm, no foul.

[Merlin Orr]

<

A penalty or DQ should never be made in any game by a poll of the peanut gallery, either issue the DQ based on your understanding of the rules, or dont.

>

IMO . Although this might seem a little brusque sounding it is certainly correct....

I would have let the shooter rock on.

[waktasz]