"ultimate" 3 Gun Optic

[Smokin]

I need to choose from scopes that are CURRENTLY available. That means the upcoming S&B 1.1-8 is not a contender since it wont be available for a few months. Im considering the following:

1) Swarovski Z6i

2) Elcan Specter DR 1.5/6

3) US Optics SN4 1.5-6

4) Leupold Mark 8 1.1-8

So far, for pros/cons:

1) The Swaro is lightweight, and has a true 1x magnification. Cons are that it does not have exposed turrets, so I can never dial an elevation. It has good daytime visible illumination and a BDC reticle. I actually really wish it just had a mil-dot reticle as that is what I am used to on my long range rifles, but a BDC reticle will do. At ~$2K with a mount its not cheap, but in the middle of the pack of scopes under consideration.

2) The Elcan 1.5/6. This MIGHT be my first choice so far. The "flip swich" change between magnifications is handy for stages with targets that range from near to far. Good red dot and fabulous glass (probably similar in quality to the Swaro).Weight is a hefty 24 oz, but considering its mount is integral its about 2 oz more than the Swaro with the mount. Cons are that it doesnt have the true 1x mag for very close targets (although the 1.5 is what I use on my current scope the most) and that the magnification is not infinitely adjustable. Im just not sure how valuable having a magnification set at "4x" would be when I could just go to 6. Like the Swaro it also lacks exposed turrets, so "dialing" elevation is not an option and also has a BDC reticle.

3)The US Optics SN4 with 1.5-6 can be built to my specs. As I come from a long range shooting background, I can configure turrets to a familiar in a Mil based system and have my reticle also with mil based units. The first focal plane reticle is nice, but Im not sure how useful it will be at lower magnifications as you cant really see the reticle at 2x or 3x mag. Cost is at $1500 loaded, but it lacks immediate availability (has to be built) and does not have a flash dot. Its probably a bit on the heavy side weighing in at 24 oz without a mount. It will be likely around 32 oz with an ADM/LaRue mount.

4)The Mark 8 is BY FAR the priciest. At nearly $4K I can buy almost 2 of every other optic. But it is FFP, great glass, and has enough zoom for me to be VERY effective at long range targets. Like the USO, I am a bit concerned that it lacks a daytime visible red dot. That could slow me down in the closer range targets which is the majority of 3 gun. fabulous locking Exposed turrets, great mil based reticle, but a huge chunk of change.

Am I missing any scopes to consider? Ive purposely ruled out scopes that only have 4x magnification as the 6x seems to be a distinct advantage. Any opinions?

Edited August 21, 2011 by Smokin

[P.E. Kelley]

If you thinking a scope for 3 Gun you don't need "dials" on the Swaro as it has mil lines for hold points.

Of the ones listed it is one of two that I use, the other being the IOR Pitbull 1x 4x.

It has dials that I don't need for the same reason.

Just my thinking.

Patrick

[latewatch]

Go with the Swarovski. There is no need to dial elevation just plug in your load info on the Swarovski Ballistic Program and it'll give you your holds. I've tried the program on several different loads and it's been very accurate so far.

[dmshozer1]

I need to choose from scopes that are CURRENTLY available. That means the upcoming S&B 1.1-8 is not a contender since it wont be available for a few months. Im considering the following:

1) Swarovski Z6i

2) Elcan Specter DR 1.5/6

3) US Optics SN4 1.5-6

4) Leupold Mark 8 1.1-8

So far, for pros/cons:

1) The Swaro is lightweight, and has a true 1x magnification. Cons are that it does not have exposed turrets, so I can never dial an elevation. It has good daytime visible illumination and a BDC reticle. I actually really wish it just had a mil-dot reticle as that is what I am used to on my long range rifles, but a BDC reticle will do. At ~$2K with a mount its not cheap, but in the middle of the pack of scopes under consideration.

2) The Elcan 1.5/6. This MIGHT be my first choice so far. The "flip swich" change between magnifications is handy for stages with targets that range from near to far. Good red dot and fabulous glass (probably similar in quality to the Swaro).Weight is a hefty 24 oz, but considering its mount is integral its about 2 oz more than the Swaro with the mount. Cons are that it doesnt have the true 1x mag for very close targets (although the 1.5 is what I use on my current scope the most) and that the magnification is not infinitely adjustable. Im just not sure how valuable having a magnification set at "4x" would be when I could just go to 6. Like the Swaro it also lacks exposed turrets, so "dialing" elevation is not an option and also has a BDC reticle.

3)The US Optics SN4 with 1.5-6 can be built to my specs. As I come from a long range shooting background, I can configure turrets to a familiar in a Mil based system and have my reticle also with mil based units. The first focal plane reticle is nice, but Im not sure how useful it will be at lower magnifications as you cant really see the reticle at 2x or 3x mag. Cost is at $1500 loaded, but it lacks immediate availability (has to be built) and does not have a flash dot. Its probably a bit on the heavy side weighing in at 24 oz without a mount. It will be likely around 32 oz with an ADM/LaRue mount.

4)The Mark 8 is BY FAR the priciest. At nearly $4K I can buy almost 2 of every other optic. But it is FFP, great glass, and has enough zoom for me to be VERY effective at long range targets. Like the USO, I am a bit concerned that it lacks a daytime visible red dot. That could slow me down in the closer range targets which is the majority of 3 gun. fabulous locking Exposed turrets, great mil based reticle, but a huge chunk of change.

Am I missing any scopes to consider? Ive purposely ruled out scopes that only have 4x magnification as the 6x seems to be a distinct advantage. Any opinions?

Did you ever think of taking the caps off to dial your elevation when needed?

Most people I know don't want exposed turrets for fear of moving the adjustments

while moving through a course of fire that does not require dialing.

[Smokin]

I don't imagine that dialing will be required, just a "nice to have" in the rare case that there may be an advantage. Between the Swaro and the Elcan, would many here find the limitation of having only a 1.5 or 6x zoom a disadvantage? I was thinking that having a "flip lever" to toggle between two zoom settings in less than a second could be an advantage. But would thie lack of any zoom between 1.5 and 6 be a severe limitation?

Edited August 22, 2011 by Smokin

[jobob]

Not having true 1x on the low end could be a disadvantage. That could be mitigated with offset irons, though, assuming you will be shooting in Tactical Optics. If Open, then an offset red dot.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Double Tap!

Edited August 22, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

The Swaro is the best scope in 3 gun right now. Here are just a few guys that I have seen with one. Kalani Laker, West Chandler, Rustin Bernskoetter, Kurt Miller, Daniel Horner, Tyler Payne, Clint Upchurch.

[ken hebert]

I've either used or borrowed a look through all you've mentioned, Swaro is still my pick.

[Cap]

Swaro has .75mil dots. Get one, you wont regret it...although your checkbook might.

[Alaskapopo]

I don't imagine that dialing will be required, just a "nice to have" in the rare case that there may be an advantage. Between the Swaro and the Elcan, would many here find the limitation of having only a 1.5 or 6x zoom a disadvantage? I was thinking that having a "flip lever" to toggle between two zoom settings in less than a second could be an advantage. But would thie lack of any zoom between 1.5 and 6 be a severe limitation?

If you put a throw lever on the Swarovski you can change it pretty fast. Another disadvantage to the elcan is the built in ARMS mounts that don't always fit all recievers. That combined with slow to use external elevation and windage adjustments. (You complained about not being able to quickly dial the Swarovski its 10 times worse with the Elcan. My roommate owns the 1-4 Elcan. Not bad glass but I prefer my my Swarovski. Another advantage of the Swarovski is the ability to use powers between 1 and 6. I use 1,3 and 6 the most. 1 on fast close in stuff, 3 on normal sized targets past 100 yards and 6x for the long stuff or the small targets like Pesky poppers.

Pat

[TMC]

This may be harsh but most of the better variables will get the job done if you know your holds and practice with it.

Some of the fastest guys use simple scopes because they know where to hold for a given distance.

True 1x is not that critical even without back-up irons IMHO.

Edited August 22, 2011 by TMC

[Smokin]

TMC, of course "other variables" and practice come into play, but I don't subscribe to the school of thought of buying only the minimal of what is required "to get the job done". Procuring the best equipment is my question here. I am seeking opinions on what equipment helps augment the accomplsihed shooter the most, not how I can "get by" with a "simple scope".

[outerlimits]

I think TMC is saying complex reticles require extensive knowledge to work, given loads and scope magnification. A simple reticle with proven load development and a little range time is all you need.

Case in point: any trijicon scope.

[TMC]

Outerlimits got it right. Many of the high-end variables have really busy reticles with lots of stuff you really don't need in a game of speed. In our game there are a limited number of long range targets at known distances (most of the time). There is no penalty for not making a first shot hit, other than the time it costs you, so having some wiz bang reticle that will help with hold over/off are a bit of a waste of time in my opinion.

I wasn't saying buy the cheapest but buying the most expensive doesn't always produce the best results either.

[AlamoShooter]

I would have to guess that you have not looked at Vortex Razor ? FFP

I think having a true 1x Is an advantage - I will shoot most close targets with both eyes open. my right eye gets the same image my left eye gets causing less "Brain clouds"

Brain Clouds are a leading cause of D zoneittis

its been a few months since I did the photo, But with first grade math I can tell you the target is 25-30 yards

The outer circle is 19 moa at 100 yards - the head is 6" wide - the circle covers just over 5" of the head /= 1/4 of 19 = 1/4 of 100yards + a few yards

A few of the Enos vender's carry it

I would be happy to let you try my scope if you look me up at any event. & I will be at the Pro Am

Jamie

this photos is at 30 yards

Edited August 22, 2011 by AlamoShooter

[Smokin]

Alamoshooter. I did consider the Vortex Razor HD. The reason that the razor HD and current S&B 1-4 Short Dot didnt make the list is the 4x mag. The 1x magnification is great, but I prefer a little more magnification if it is available.

[MarkCO]

I've either used or borrowed a look through all you've mentioned, Swaro is still my pick.

DITTO! No question.

[Wakal]

My friend Fred and I wander SHOT like lost souls (easily distracted lost souls, but lost neverthelesss) looking at optics. I build quite a few 3-Gun and LE rifles, and have no particular brand loyalty. I want performance, not a name on the side, and I will drop anything inferior for a better product if it is of any real (not perceived) value.

Just like most folks here, aside from the shills for the various products due to sponsorship or other vested interest

I find the Z6i to be the best combination of features currently available. Fairly light, six power on the top end (which knocks out the otherwise spiffy high end Vortex), bright illumination (which kills the dim US Optics), and with good eye relief that does not change with magnification (which knocks out the S&B Short Dots)...and is one power on the low end, which (along with the just plain silly price) kills the Leupold MK8.

I am fond of Meopta, Burris TAC30 1-4 (I sell a ton of these, as I find them a fantastic value for the money spent), Burris XTR 1-4, and the IOR 1.5-8. I've owned pretty much everything, and at least spent a lot of time fondling things I don't have or have little interest in (just in case I'm wrong, which...I often am, which forces me to re-evaluate and re-rank my choices). I'm no expert, but I'm not a shill or a pimp either

The funny thing about scopes, as it most things in life, as the price goes up the performance goes up...to a point. After that point, the performance increases incrementally and the price increases geometrically. The problem is finding that point, or figuring just how much incremental performance you want at the price you can pay.

For now, I can afford any optic on the market. My Z6i(s) are by no means the most expensive glass I own, but they are the best competition glass I've found... I do intend to buy one of the new 1-10 IOR (the prototypes at SHOT were very interesting), eventually...someday Val will start shipping them!

Alex

[Doug H.]

Swaro has .75mil dots. Get one, you wont regret it...although your checkbook might.

Not sure where you got that info, here is a photo of the reticle subtension chart from the Swaro booklet. The marks are in 1 mil increments.

Doug

Edited August 22, 2011 by Doug H.

[Doug H.]

I actually really wish it just had a mil-dot reticle as that is what I am used to on my long range rifles, but a BDC reticle will do.

The Swaro BRT is marked in mils, it is not a true BDC because it is not set up for any particular cartridge. Swarovski has a program that will help you match the marks to your load. If you are used to a mil-dot reticle that is even better for you.

Doug

[ausshooter]

I picked up a swarovski recently and between the reticle, the online computer, and the 6x, I think it's the best thing going. The price is right for all the features included as well. I ran a 4x for two years and it was great, but getting out to 400+ I needed a little more help in the eyeballs.

[Alaskapopo]

This may be harsh but most of the better variables will get the job done if you know your holds and practice with it.

Some of the fastest guys use simple scopes because they know where to hold for a given distance.

True 1x is not that critical even without back-up irons IMHO.

It looks like the fastests guys are using the Swarovski according to stats from recent matches. The Swarovski is also very easy to use. Just use the center dot for most stages 200 yards and in like an Aimpoint. Past than use your hold overs. If I can use it, it can't be that complicated.

Pat

Edited August 22, 2011 by Alaskapopo

[P.E. Kelley]

.. I do intend to buy one of the new 1-10 IOR (the prototypes at SHOT were very interesting), eventually...someday Val will start shipping them!

Alex

Alex,

I have a prototype IOR 1x10 FFP (with a second SFP reticle) in hand (on a rifle) for T and E I would love to touch bases with you and chat about the unit.

Are you going to the ProAm???

Patrick

[Smokin]

Went ahead and ordered the Swaro Z6i BRT. That thing was hard to find. I ended up paying nearly full price on Amazon.com. So I'll likely take a beating if I sell it in a few months when the S&B 1-8 comes out. At least I got overnight shipping for $3.99.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Smokin