TexasShootR Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Thought twice about posting this but I feel it is important for everyone to know how dangerous it is to put potted bullet ridden steel poppers out to shoot in your matches. I have been told some months back that shooting this kind of steel is very dangerous and it could kill you. Being fairly new to shooting I kinda took it with a grain of salt. To me if the older shooters didn't seemed bother by it then I shouldn't worry. Well this last week end a fellow shooter was hurt. Recoshay in the leg. I was standing next to him and felt a little flick in the pant leg. He was taken to the emergency room and some surgery was done. I don't know the whole outcome of his surgery at this point (I do know he will live). But my main point is don't use old bullet potted steel it can kill you I was at a match just the week before and one of the shooters got hit by a recoshay and it drew blood in his arm. It's a rash of flying steel lately and to me there doesn't seem to be much concern about it. I'm concerned and would like to know what others feel about this. Is it there a strict polocy at your clubs to not use bad steel or is it to laxed? I was out shooting another match the next day but in the back of my head I'm concerned. I dare not even tell my wife that it even happened. I wouldn't want her to worry anymore than she already does with me shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) Thanks for bringing this out. I have to agree they are dangerous. Edited July 25, 2011 by CocoBolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpbaer Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I to was at a match a few weeks ago and piece of jacket came back.It went through the shooters hat under his skin for about a inch and out again.the popper was arched forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Good tip! I try to use the beat to shit poppers for shotgun only. This is not meant to be mean at all, but the way you spelled ricochet made me laugh really hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasShootR Posted July 26, 2011 Author Share Posted July 26, 2011 (edited) Good tip! I try to use the beat to shit poppers for shotgun only. This is not meant to be mean at all, but the way you spelled ricochet made me laugh really hard. Let me rephase my first comment I made in regaurds to yours, it's not a laughing matter Edited July 26, 2011 by TexasShootR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 It's pretty amazing how bullets react when they hit steel. I've been smacked pretty hard with splatter that came from three bays to the left or right of where I was standing. NEVER take your glasses off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasShootR Posted July 26, 2011 Author Share Posted July 26, 2011 Another thought just occured to me, USPSA has in place many rules for safety and I'm sure using proper steel is one of them. But why is it we get complacent when it comes to steel? Not all do but why should it be any different than "unload and show clear" as far as saftey is concerned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Reecoshays happen. That's why we wear eye pro and why we have minimum distances. I agree that badly pitted/malformed/improperly angled steel targets can increase the risk but it's going to happen even under perfect conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I think that all steel should be banned from use at all matches... my times would improve dramaticly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Gaines Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Another thought just occured to me, USPSA has in place many rules for safety and I'm sure using proper steel is one of them. But why is it we get complacent when it comes to steel? Not all do but why should it be any different than "unload and show clear" as far as saftey is concerned? your right! I know which club you are talking about, because I got nailed under the eye at the same club. It looked like a bug hitting the windshield it happend so fast. It also drew blood. That could have been a life changer, I am glad it was just a knick and nothing more, but it could have been. I would contact Jack, and see if that problem can be resolved, because it is dangerous, and we have money in the section to get that steel replaced or refinished, or do some redistribution of the steel from other clubs. Personally don't shoot that match until it is resolved.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob DuBois Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Several years back I was lucky enough to put a direct hit into a deep pot mark. It sent the round back impacting my side just above the stomach. It only went in about a quarter of a inch but had quite a bit of bleeding when removed and a trip to Minor Medical. Second incident running a shooter again several years back on a steel course fragment came back impacted the shooter in the forehead. Blood flowed over his eyes and he passed out turning the gun up as he fell backwards. I was able to catch the pistol and he came to quickly. Only a small prick that hit the right spot for blood flow, he was OK and on his feet in a few minutes. As an RO it got my attention really quick and is a lasting memory. When doing range check outs with new shooters, I tell them to always inspect steel when setting up to shoot. Relay the stories above and stress do not shoot damaged steel. Remove it and let the office know it needs to be repaired. We have a no center fire rifle policy on steel on the handgun range. You can shoot paper but not steel. We still have the weekday shooters that tend to abuse steel targets and props when no one's watching. Take damaged steel off the range till it can be repaired, it's only a matter of time before it hurts someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Ricochets...I've been hit with plenty of them off steel, anyone shooting for any length of time has. A serious incident at a GSSF match some years ago.. I was watching one courses of fire being run, on my right was a friend's wife, then her husband, then another shooter- a big guy. Big guy grunts, hits the ground. It appeared that he'd suffered a GSW to the upper thigh- entrance hole, fat protruding through the hole. Ambulance ride to the ER... He'd been hit with a fully expanded jacket, like a mini Ninja star, looked like a .45. and it went right to the bone. It wasn't off steel, probably a rock or target frame. Reconstructing it later, it appeared that it had to have travelled directly in front of three of us to hit the victim. A neck hit hit would have been pretty serious, to say the least. So, not just steel.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romans 13 4 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 In my younger (read stupid) days, I was out in the woods shooting at an old popper with holes through it. I still have the scar on my leg from the fragment that hit me. Penetrated my leg right above my boot (naturally) and bruised my leg from the ankle to just below my knee. Lesson learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1SOW Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) You are correct. "We" all should speak up about dented and bowed steel. Pure splatter from flat hardened steel shouldn't be a big risk if the minimum distance is adhered to, AND the angle of the shot is kept close to 90 degrees. I've been hit lightly several times too. I'm just a C shooter, so I tend to rely on the movers and shakers to say: Heh, you need to buy a new $200+ steel gong or popper. The COST of safe steel targets is the issue. They are expensive. No one wants to be 'the bad guy'. Two of us here on this post, regularly shoot at some big gongs that look like they have terminal acne and are bowed pretty badly. Edited July 27, 2011 by 1SOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I to was at a match a few weeks ago and piece of jacket came back.It went through the shooters hat under his skin for about a inch and out again.the popper was arched forward. It's taken a while to get the whole story but it looks as if it was not the popper some people thought it was - it was one of the newer hard steel poppers and these are clear of any pockmarks and have almost no curve to any of them. As near as can be determined a bullet from an open gun hit near the sweet spot on a full size hard metal popper set at 28 feet from the shooting line and a small piece of jacket (or more likely lead) came back and hit the shooter in the head. The reason I bring this up is because it points out the old adage that "stuff" happens. This is exactly why good eye protection is important at all times. It also brings forward the idea that forward falling poppers may well be the best thing to get when getting new poppers - but that's a different thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasShootR Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 It's been several days now since this richocet incident and I've had some time to think about it. Just some things for all of us to think about. When an accident happens how will your club handle it? From my experience last week it seems some didn't even know that a fellow competitor had taken a bullet/richocet to the leg. It had entered the front calf just missing the bone and came to rest in the back of his calf just under the skin. You could see the bulge and it was turning blue. At that point you could see and feel panic in the air. Proper decisions my not be made in regards to the hurt when panic sets in. I.E. do we call 911 or take them to emercency room? For us, a couple decided, rather quickly to call 911 because we thought shock could occur and have heard that can be serious. Let me tell you if you do call 911 have an address where you are and don't expect an ambulance in a couple minutes because I was on the phone for at least four minutes (which seemed like forever) talking to several dispachers before we decided against using 911 service. I always thought it would be a very quick responce, not! While waiting for the 911 to patch us into a local service a couple of guys who knew of a close by emergency room decided it would be better to take him ourselves. My point to all this is it will take time for an emergency service to arrive. I think it should be noted where the closest emergency/hospital is from where your club is shooting and have a trama kit with a knowledgeable person able to administer it if needed. This all may sound like I'm stealling some of the joy of shooting but sheet happens. How will you handle it? I'll be talking to our Section Cordinator next time I see him to express my concerns. All in all I think this sport is very safe especially with all the saftey precautions we take but things can go wrong, how will we hanle another emergency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Gaines Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Those are all good questions, and each club should have a trauma kit available just in case! Remember what can go wrong, will go wrong! Also it better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. I have been at clubs, where they didn't have band aids, and we had to put a rag over bleading wound and use the tape that we use to tape the targets, and wrap around her leg to hold the wrag in place. It should not be this way, we all want to have fun, we should have the appropriate first aid equipment, just in case. I am in agreement with you Joe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgood Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 (edited) He'd been hit with a fully expanded jacket, like a mini Ninja star. . . . I got one of those across my nose once. Not at a match. I was in one of those NRA gun safety classes at the time and the only reason I was wearing my shooting glasses (back then) was that the instructor required us to wear eye protection. It was too fast and I was never sure if the thing hit my glasses first and bounced off and went across my nose or if it hit my nose first and then the glasses, but there were definately two hits and I felt like I'd been punched (kinda wiggling my nose around like I needed to sneeze, like someone had just poked me in the snout, eyes watering a little). It knocked my glasses a little crooked on my face. At first I thought I'd been hit by ejecting brass, if rather hard. I shook it off and kept shooting. Later, as we were scoring targets, someone told me I was bleeding. I went to the restroom and looked in the mirror and saw a little trickle of (by then mostly dried) blood down one side of my nose coming from a small cut right across the bridge of my nose. Convinced me to start wearing the glasses. Edited July 28, 2011 by mgood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic_jon Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 It's been several days now since this richocet incident and I've had some time to think about it. Just some things for all of us to think about. When an accident happens how will your club handle it? From my experience last week it seems some didn't even know that a fellow competitor had taken a bullet/richocet to the leg. It had entered the front calf just missing the bone and came to rest in the back of his calf just under the skin. You could see the bulge and it was turning blue. At that point you could see and feel panic in the air. Proper decisions my not be made in regards to the hurt when panic sets in. I.E. do we call 911 or take them to emercency room? For us, a couple decided, rather quickly to call 911 because we thought shock could occur and have heard that can be serious. Let me tell you if you do call 911 have an address where you are and don't expect an ambulance in a couple minutes because I was on the phone for at least four minutes (which seemed like forever) talking to several dispachers before we decided against using 911 service. I always thought it would be a very quick responce, not! While waiting for the 911 to patch us into a local service a couple of guys who knew of a close by emergency room decided it would be better to take him ourselves. My point to all this is it will take time for an emergency service to arrive. I think it should be noted where the closest emergency/hospital is from where your club is shooting and have a trama kit with a knowledgeable person able to administer it if needed. This all may sound like I'm stealling some of the joy of shooting but sheet happens. How will you handle it? I'll be talking to our Section Cordinator next time I see him to express my concerns. All in all I think this sport is very safe especially with all the saftey precautions we take but things can go wrong, how will we hanle another emergency? All clubs should cover emergency procedures in the safety/pre-match briefing. There should be 1) a plan, and 2) specific people assigned to specific "emergency duties" (with a backup)just in case. If your club lacks this then you are asking for chaos if somethign happens. A clear plan and clear duties in case of an emergency is essential! My club arranged for the Safety officers/Match Directors to take a trauma first aid class last year and even though we have not had to use the knowledge, it was worth every penny and second spent on it. We now have multiple people trained in trauma first-aid and now know how to *properly* use the medical equipment we have. Several of us have our own small IFAK packs that we bring with us in addition to the club provided ones and the larger club first aid/trauma kit. The peace of mind of knowing what to do and being correctly equipped for it is priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasShootR Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 Thanks Classic Jon, that's very good what you guys do. I'm going to speak to our Section Cordinator to see if we can implemnet the same at our matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 This thread made me think about our first response plan at my club and the fact that we don't have one... I purchased two trauma kits to keep on hand during our matches. That's what I love about this forum, shooters helping shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PkSpawn Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 As near as can be determined a bullet from an open gun hit near the sweet spot on a full size hard metal popper set at 28 feet from the shooting line and a small piece of jacket (or more likely lead) came back and hit the shooter in the head. The reason I bring this up is because it points out the old adage that "stuff" happens. This is exactly why good eye protection is important at all times. Search Youtube for "SCCSFA USPSA Stage 2 & 3 07/16/2011" That is the stage that they are talking about, same day of the incident. At the 2:03 mark in the video, you can see the steel targets a little better.. The left most is angled forward, the one next to it looks forward, but it actually has a concave center, either shot that much or from a rifle. There should be highly visible First Aid Station/Kits placed either at each bay or central location that can be gotten to quickly. And part of the Match Briefing, letting shooters know the locations. At the above incident, another shooter actually had a first aid kit in his bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Amish 1 Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Thanks Classic Jon, that's very good what you guys do. I'm going to speak to our Section Cordinator to see if we can implement the same at our matches. Hi TexasShootr, I think Jack had already looked into trauma kits and training for a group of TSS volunteers atn some point. This sounds like a good reminder to bring this up again, feel free to sign me up for the training. On a sidenote, regardless of how long we have been shooting, we should be able to make match management aware of a safety issue. I've pulled steel from a setup before and I haven't been shooting for decades, either. I would hope that whoever runs the match is more interested in safety than letting a popper go to waste. Accidents and injuries are extremely counterproductive to to our sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Rickershays ant no laffin mater - they kin rely mes u up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 We've had multiple officers injured by richochets from steel targets and part of the target frame for our turning targets is steel and seems to be the major culprit. One guy had his neck sliced to a mm from his jugular vein. Very lucky. Others had had rounds enter their legs, arms, but ...nothing gets done because it means spending $ so the dept keeps using the same target system and we're waiting for the fatality to happen. Disgusting but there it is.....$ trumps safety. Frangible ammo is a possible remedy for guys having problems and not wishing to replace steel due to $. Saw it demoed at SHOT in Vegas. THe guy stood so his weapon was just about touching the steel target and fired 2 full mags of the frangible as fast as he could wearing a short sleeve t-shirt and shorts. All that happened was the round disintigrate into a powder when they hit the steel....no blow back and no damage to the steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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