Dangerous Steel poppers

[twodownzero]

Safety plans are part of the NRA's Range Safety Officer course. Perhaps they should be added to our Range Officer course as well.

[racine]

Ricochets...I've been hit with plenty of them off steel, anyone shooting for any length of time has. A serious incident at a GSSF match some years ago.. I was watching one courses of fire being run, on my right was a friend's wife, then her husband, then another shooter- a big guy. Big guy grunts, hits the ground. It appeared that he'd suffered a GSW to the upper thigh- entrance hole, fat protruding through the hole. Ambulance ride to the ER... He'd been hit with a fully expanded jacket, like a mini Ninja star, looked like a .45. and it went right to the bone. It wasn't off steel, probably a rock or target frame. Reconstructing it later, it appeared that it had to have travelled directly in front of three of us to hit the victim. A neck hit hit would have been pretty serious, to say the least. So, not just steel..

I don't know if anyone had mentioned an incident that happened this early summer. It seems a guest was watching a steel match from a reasonable distance( USPSA club in LA), when the copper jacket of a round ricocheted and tore his jugular vein or artery. He was rushed to a local hospital and underwent emergent surgical repair of that vessel and survived. This incident caused the club to review the protocols in place and it appears it was an unusually rare circumstance but nevertheless capable of happening. I don't know what power factor was involved but I do know when the power factor was in the 170s I used to get quite a bit of shrapnel especially from the 38super shooters. One particular instance was to my arm that drew blood from a distance of about 75 yds up a slight hill. This has caused me to re-evaluate allowing the use of factory FMJ loads for steel matches by non-reloading shooters. I'm looking to move steel to 15 yds for the non-USPSA matches.

[SilentVectorX]

I don't know if anyone had mentioned an incident that happened this early summer. It seems a guest was watching a steel match from a reasonable distance( USPSA club in LA), when the copper jacket of a round ricocheted and tore his jugular vein or artery. He was rushed to a local hospital and underwent emergent surgical repair of that vessel and survived. This incident caused the club to review the protocols in place and it appears it was an unusually rare circumstance but nevertheless capable of happening. I don't know what power factor was involved but I do know when the power factor was in the 170s I used to get quite a bit of shrapnel especially from the 38super shooters. One particular instance was to my arm that drew blood from a distance of about 75 yds up a slight hill. This has caused me to re-evaluate allowing the use of factory FMJ loads for steel matches by non-reloading shooters. I'm looking to move steel to 15 yds for the non-USPSA matches.

Other than frangible, what is the next best projectiles to use? Reading this thread has me pretty well convinced to change my bullet choice (currently using Berry's plated RN) if neccesary.

[Sean Gaines]

moving the steel back would help some, due to the angles, but its not garantee. The last bad ricochet that I recieved was from a 35 yard big popper. I got hit under the eye. It was not a fmj, it was from a lead round. to me it looked like a bug hitting the windshield in front of me.

[redmanfixit]

Steel is fun to shoot and durable, obviously though, consideration must be given to how stages are set up as well as the condition of the targets. Be appreciative if you have one or another of the odd types around that likes to fix things. Most of the problems described above can be managed with a hydraulic press or a heavy truck, some wooden blocks and a welder or torch. It seems that no one wants to mess with the infrastructure. Deep craters in steel are easy to repair with hard facing alloy. Fill the defect and use a grinder to flatten it out. If the steel becomes curved, smaller chunks can be flattened using a press and a little patience. For poppers, a heavy truck and some wooden blocks are really handy and a couple guys that don't mind working together to iron out the curves. Every where I shoot, everyone wants to blow and go. More and more I see piles of broken, cracked steel that it seems no one wants to spend time repairing. When you are lucky enough to find a shooter with blacksmith or steel fabrication skills, encourage them, thank them and provide them with the materials and help to do prudent maintenance. This is an IMPORTANT aspect of maintaining the sterling safety record we have in this sport.

I was a Navy Corpsman attached to Marine units for a lot of the time I was in the service. There are actually quite a few of us around. Many of us shoot. Oddly one of the things we learned to deal with were superficial wounds of the kind described above. Generally, when I go out to matches I carry supplies with me that will at least let me clean and dress a shallow wound on site. Not that hard if you have the right stuff in a pile. There are wonderful blood stop preparations that will stop even arterial bleeding well enough, that you have time to get someone to an ER, without them bleeding out from even a severe wound. These work like a charm on capillary bleeding and can get you back on the line not much worse for the wear. This stuff costs money though and clubs are well advised to find an EMT, old Medic or Corpsman or even a sympathetic ER Doc to help you get a first aid kit together and make sure it's around, that someone knows where it is and that someone knows what to do with it. These SIMPLE preparations will support our safety record. ALL the thinking and prep must be done BEFORE the fact. There is no time in the moment.

Dress right. If you go out riding a motorcycle, for example, dressed in a t-shirt and shorts with flip-flops on....you're an idiot. No, you may not fall off TODAY or the next day, but you will eventually hear some guy like me telling you, "Look, I KNOW this hurts and believe it or not it hurts ME as much as it's hurting you, but if I don't get this cleaned up correctly, it's going to be a mess!" If you want to understand what I'm talking about, ask ER staff how they feel about dealing with injuries that are avoidable. Yes, it's hot, yes heavier clothing is more restrictive to movement, deal with it. Many of these flying chunks mentioned above can be slowed WAY down by the right clothing and gear. Not always, but often. Think it over.

The statistical probability that an accident of one kind or another is going to occur is increasing as a function of our efforts to invite new participants. The experienced shooters that inspect for safety and workability of the stages should be deferred to on the range. ALWAYS! We have a record of deep consideration of safe practice and we have to return to it relentlessly at every turn in managing match setup, stage design, even the way we handle props during the beginning and end of our play time!! Commit to building a culture in your club that chooses the safer path over the "funner" path.

I read a nice quote from Jeff Cooper recently. " Safety is NOT something you hold in your hand, safety is something that happens between your ears!" Have fun....play nice, be smart.

[racerba]

Search Youtube for "SCCSFA USPSA Stage 2 & 3 07/16/2011" That is the stage that they are talking about, same day of the incident. At the 2:03 mark in the video, you can see the steel targets a little better.. The left most is angled forward, the one next to it looks forward, but it actually has a concave center, either shot that much or from a rifle.

It was the third steel from the left as the shooter did not even get a shot off at the fourth in the sequence. The steel had 2 or 3 rifle pot marks in it. The bullet bounced back almost straight back at him being only a few inches from the muzzle.

I'd like to point out that this occurrence is a bounce-back and not a ricochet. A ricochet would have far more velocity and far more potential for fatality. Although a bounce-back can potentially be fatal, it is more unlikely than a ricochet.

[remoandiris]

I have an old safety and use guide booklet from Porta Target. It shows most splatter is spread out about 20 degrees from POA. Slightly forward leaning steel does a better job of deflecting than steel standing straight up.

Of course most (maybe all) of us know there are no absolutes. Splatter can come directly back at a shooter. It is rare, but does happen. Like any other sport, even with great safety plans, accidents happen.

[ichetucknee]

This is such a good topic. I've been hit splatter before but nothing like some examples you guys have witnessed. I'll be more aware in the future for sure. What is considered a safe distance if any?

[spanky]

This is such a good topic. I've been hit splatter before but nothing like some examples you guys have witnessed. I'll be more aware in the future for sure. What is considered a safe distance if any?

23 feet with a barrier, 26 without.

[kevin c]

The steel had 2 or 3 rifle pot marks in it.

This is surely a contributor to damaged steel.

Our range bans rifle or shotgun slug use on our action pistol poppers and plates. We also try to buy poppers with the hardest alloys.

Yes, the steel will still get bowed, and occasionally pocked by somebody who doesn't know better. But we only get the occasional frag injury.

"This is such a good topic. I've been hit splatter before but nothing like some examples you guys have witnessed. I'll be more aware in the future for sure. What is considered a safe distance if any?"

"23 feet with a barrier, 26 without."

Further is better. Lower probability of a hit on a spectatory and lower velocity when it happens. Our range recognises the USPSA recommendations, but we try to keep the steel back at 10 yards a much as possible.

Edited October 6, 2011 by kevin c

[Chills1994]

[irish accent] That Rick O'Shea, he'll get you from time to time [/accent] .

[racine]

I should also mention that I was hit with a 230 gr. lead slug on my forehead as I was riding on a pickup gate on the other side of a berm. A stage was underway on the next berm over and the shooter had engaged a popper and somehow ricocheted that over towards my head. I saw stars for about 30 seconds and a hard thump as I heard the slug hit the bed next to me. It drew blood under my hat. Whether that slug came from the shooters gun or from a loose round on the ground is unclear. What is clear is the velocity felt at impact. I still have that slug to remind me. No broken bones in my hard head but a clear warning to keep eye protection on at all times.

[Graham Smith]

Not to belabor this point but... Most of the steel we have is of the newer hard steel variety and this winter we are going to get rid of the older stuff we don't use any more - the stuff that is cupped, pitted, etc. Well, this has started a bit of a debate with a couple long time shooters. They have been shooting USPSA since before it had a name and they contend that a lot of the discussion of "dangerous steel" is a myth based on random incidents that had nothing to do with the condition of the steel. And their point is not without some merit.

They contend that there always have been the random cases where people got hit by shrapnel in all shooting sports that use steel targets and that his happened equally with good and worn steel. And that it continues to happen with the newer steel. They further say that there is nothing about cupped or pitted steel that is inherently more dangerous. If you hit the steel in the cup, it's not going to skid around the cup and come back at you - the geometry is all wrong for that. IOW, it's a random event dictated purely by chance. In fact, we have had only one incident at our club that could be called serious and it was the result of a bullet fragment from a hard steel popper without any pitting or cupping that was 28' from the port the shooter was shooting through.

Basically, they say that this is all based on anecdotal evidence and there are no facts to back it up. Clearly, this is not the prevailing opinion here, but it does seem that if there were any hard and fast evidence that USPSA would have outlawed the older stuff by now. What say you?

[JKSNIPER]

Contact your local ambulance company who will respond if called to your clubs range.

They might have a couple of shooting buffs who could be convinced to spend a day being "on call" near the range in return for some instruction and trigger time.

We have volunteer ambulance and fire depts here. Most of them will be very happy to work with your club to develop an emergency plan and advise on first aid kit items.

To stop bleeding a tourniquet is advised for serious bleeds or GSW's . Kotex and sanitary napkins are great for slapping onto/into a wound to stop blood loss and they're sterile.

Have an emergency plan to include a possible helicopter LZ area predesignated to minimize confusion when things go upside down.

Just remember Stop the bleeding, Start the breathing, Protect the wound, Treat for shock.

JK

[Bob DuBois]

Caught one below the rib cage some 20 years ago and never forgot it. Direct hit into a cratered falling plate sent it right back at me.

Pays to inspect steel and remove till they can be repaired.

[pskys2]

The scariest I ever had happen was from a Rebar Stand that had an 8" Plate on it at about 10 yards.

I was the R.O. and was right behind and a bit to the right of the shooter. He missed the plate and hit the rebar.

I actually saw the flat base of the JHP a micro second before it hit just below my nose and above the front right eyetooth.

Saw stars and bled like a !&*! for about 10 minutes. Luckily it was the shooters next to last shot.

I had nothing broken and ice took care of it.

My biggest concern is the T-Posts we hold up panels with. I always set them up so they aren't near the line of fire.

I cringe having to RO someone and they are shooting 3 feet away from one and having to shoot at a tight target, I will cravenly put them between me and the post.

[Skydiver]

The scariest I ever had happen was from a Rebar Stand that had an 8" Plate on it at about 10 yards.

I was the R.O. and was right behind and a bit to the right of the shooter. He missed the plate and hit the rebar.

I actually saw the flat base of the JHP a micro second before it hit just below my nose and above the front right eyetooth.

Saw stars and bled like a !&*! for about 10 minutes. Luckily it was the shooters next to last shot.

I had nothing broken and ice took care of it.

My biggest concern is the T-Posts we hold up panels with. I always set them up so they aren't near the line of fire.

I cringe having to RO someone and they are shooting 3 feet away from one and having to shoot at a tight target, I will cravenly put them between me and the post.

Sounds like an appropriate use of cover.

[JKSNIPER]

I post the following which I copied from LE Targets website.

I found the info under their safety for reactive steel targets section:

STEEL TARGET SAFETY RULES

1. Always obey the Firearms Safety Rules listed above.

2. Always wear hearing protection and wrap-around shatter resistant eye protection

3. Always stand at least 10 yards from the target when using handgun calibers.

4. Always stand at least 100 yards from the target when using shotgun slugs.

5. Always stand at least 100 yards from the target when using rifle calibers like .223 and .308.

6. Never use rifle calibers on handgun rated targets.

7. Never use ammunition that exceeds 3,000 feet per second at the muzzle.

8. Never use ammunition that travels below 750 feet per second.

9. Never shoot BB's, steel shot, or air gun pellets at steel targets.

10. Never use more powerful ammunition than the target is rated for. (Green tip, armor piercing, etc.)

11. Never shoot on steel that is cratered, pitted, or damaged in any way.

12. Hard ground surfaces under the target should be covered with plywood or boxed pea gravel.

13. Targets should be placed with a 3 foot lateral and deep offset from the adjacent target.

14. If shooting multiple targets, angle of engagement should not exceed 20 degrees.

15. Use only non-toxic paint on steel targets.

16. Inspect all targets before using for damage, functionality, etc.

17. Shooters and observers must wear long pants (no shorts), long sleeve shirts, a cap or hat with a brim, and closed toed shoes.

18. Instructors and observers should stand behind the shooter and observe all safety rules.

19. If using frangible ammunition, it is the responsibility of the Rangemaster to test fire all frangible rounds to determine the following:

(1) that the projectile pulverizes completely on contact

(2) that the projectile does not damage the steel target at the distances you intend to shoot from

As far as the frangible ammo goes I once saw a demo at SHOT where the rep stood with his muzzle almost touching the steel and he proceeded to fire an entire mag of their frangible ammo as fast as he could pull the trigger. He was wearing shorts and a t-shirt and the only protective gear I could see was eye/ear protection.

The rounds pulverized into a very fine powder that resembled talcum powder.

I saw NO damage to the shooter and the steel target appeared to be totally unmarked....it looked brand spanking new.

My next sentence is not going to be popular but......Maybe the solution to the safety issue is to require frangible ammo for steel targets?

JK

[Skydiver]

Interesting that rule #17 above makes no mention about scoop necks or plunging necklines. I'm quite sure there are enough stories about that and hot brass.

One of the local indoor ranges here has reactive steel targets for the public to shoot, but the shooters must use frangible ammunition bought at the store.

[JKSNIPER]

Yeah Skydiver...the $ is probably why guys will HATE that suggestion and believe me, being retired on a fixed income I can relate to hating anything that increases my costs especially for something I enjoy so much.

I don't even know if you can buy frangible projectiles so you could make your own rounds.

I don't even know if it can be done using existing reloading equipment or if you'd need some sort of speciality equipment to reload frangible ammo.

BUT....it would appear to be the answer to reducing injuries/wounds suffered as a result of using steel targets in practice/matches.

JK

[Mark R]

After reading the horror stories here I was wondering if anyone sets up steel poppers slightly off center from the 90 degree path of the bullet which would allow the bullet to splatter/ricochet in a controlled manner? Or should you place them at directly 90 degrees from the shooter/bullet path and hope they disintegrate the bullet upon impact?

which do you do? 90 degree from bullet path or slightly offset? Why?

[remoandiris]

BUT....it would appear to be the answer to reducing injuries/wounds suffered as a result of using steel targets in practice/matches.

An easier and cheaper answer is to NOT use steel targets. That answer is probably as popular as using frangible ammo.

[Skydiver]

After reading the horror stories here I was wondering if anyone sets up steel poppers slightly off center from the 90 degree path of the bullet which would allow the bullet to splatter/ricochet in a controlled manner? Or should you place them at directly 90 degrees from the shooter/bullet path and hope they disintegrate the bullet upon impact?

which do you do? 90 degree from bullet path or slightly offset? Why?

I used to setup stages where steel was sometimes available from offset angles, but the more experienced people at the range counseled against it. They always helped me rearrange things so that the optimum shooting positions would have shooters shooting steel as close to 90 degrees as possible. Their explanation was that it was better to have a face on impact so that most of the energy would be transferred to the target, and if bullets would bounce off, it would be more predictable acute set of angles.

[Aglifter]

A) I've never had a problem on a plate rack, or a steel challenge match

I have gotten hit numerous times by pieces coming off poppers - mostly, it seems, off stuff coming off adjacent bays (some of the clubs I used to shoot at had "berms" I could see over between bays...)

I have never notice anything off a star or a polish rack.

I don't know any reason why a popper, in good condition, should be dangerous - if anything, it should be safer than steel challenge.

Does anyone else have a similar experience? Could the problem be more that fragments from adjacent bays are coming over - indicating inadequate berms - more than the type of target. (Leaving aside the pockmarked steel issue)

Are FMJ bullets the problem? Personally, I either shoot JHP, or plated.

[JKSNIPER]

On the PD's range (cardboard targets) we STILL had splatter problems and ricochet incidents because the FRAME holding the targets was made of metal.

I also have never had any problems shooting steel before but I have witnessed or heard of incidents from minor splatter up to and including "Holy Shite!" wounds.

Maybe most of these are caused by shooters missing the plate and hitting the frame/support for the plate rack or popper?

JK