DQ or not?

[Chuck Anderson]

Why, please tell me WHY you would call the police? Range Master yes, certainly and probably, in fact definitely some remedial education

he proceeded to yank the gun from the holster and dryfire it into the ground between us.

Whether it be the parking lot of a bar or a public event, parade, match ect..

Someone yanks out a gun and points it at multiple people.

Lets just say I see something wrong with that.

This is not the response I would expect.

I'd have to hear a relevant statute first. But I can tell you in Oregon I doubt you could even get a police officer to respond to that. There is nothing remotely criminal in that action.

Where are you getting pointing it at people from that. He pulled the gun out and pointed it at the groud...at a shooting range. Guns get pulled out at shooting ranges. If he pointed it at people, intentionally, that would be a different matter. I'm sorry if you don't see the difference between a shooting range and parade.

[bbbean]

Why, please tell me WHY you would call the police? Range Master yes, certainly and probably, in fact definitely some remedial education

he proceeded to yank the gun from the holster and dryfire it into the ground between us.

Whether it be the parking lot of a bar or a public event, parade, match ect..

Someone yanks out a gun and points it at multiple people.

Lets just say I see something wrong with that.

This is not the response I would expect.

I already regret wading in here, but how is "into the ground between us" pointing a gun at multiple people? Lets not create a crisis where there isn't one. The police have enough to do without having to enforce USPSA rules.

[GrumpyOne]

Why, please tell me WHY you would call the police? Range Master yes, certainly and probably, in fact definitely some remedial education

he proceeded to yank the gun from the holster and dryfire it into the ground between us.

Whether it be the parking lot of a bar or a public event, parade, match ect..

Someone yanks out a gun and points it at multiple people.

Lets just say I see something wrong with that.

This is not the response I would expect.

I already regret wading in here, but how is "into the ground between us" pointing a gun at multiple people? Lets not create a crisis where there isn't one. The police have enough to do without having to enforce USPSA rules.

AMEN!

[bluenite]

I was not there, I did not see it happen.

That is why in my post I used the word might

A call to local police might be in order could be local laws cover this.

[OpenDot]

Ok, going back and re-reading my post I guess I left out a very important part.

Once I told him that his hammer was cocked, he proceeded to yank the gun from the holster and dryfire it into the ground between us. This all took place about 100 yards from the safe area.

The major part of the question relates to WHEN (time wise, not situation wise) it is acceptable to DQ someone. This all took place before the match began.

Match Day

DQ - Unsafe Gun Handling

Not done in Safe Area or after Make Ready Command..

if this was allowed we all would be walking around racking slides and practice dryfiring at targets while the shooter was doing the COF

[Nik Habicht]

So if that's the case then you could be DQ'd on setup day if setup occurs the day before a match?

Are you implying that, on the day before the match, they set up the stages and, with no intent of shooting stages on that day, the shooter goes and puts on his gear and has a cocked pistol in his holster?

First, while not impossible, I think this situation is unlikely. Second, I believe setup and tear down are integral parts of the match. (Try holding a match without these functions!) Is there some reason we should not expect the same rules of match safety to apply during these time frames? Were the gun to have been loaded and gone bang (and perhaps hit someone in the foot,) would not the USPSA program at that club been held in part responsible for failure to enforce safety standards? I suspect they would.

Kind of tough to keep a crew of set-up helpers if they have to worry about having a gun pointed at them. Mike's comment, bolded above, might not be codified in the USPSA rules, but generally there are host range rules to consider as well. USPSA members are guests of the host facility, unless they hold a membership in the host facility. Either way, there are ways to deal with offenders....

[sperman]

So if that's the case then you could be DQ'd on setup day if setup occurs the day before a match?

Are you implying that, on the day before the match, they set up the stages and, with no intent of shooting stages on that day, the shooter goes and puts on his gear and has a cocked pistol in his holster?

First, while not impossible, I think this situation is unlikely. Second, I believe setup and tear down are integral parts of the match. (Try holding a match without these functions!) Is there some reason we should not expect the same rules of match safety to apply during these time frames? Were the gun to have been loaded and gone bang (and perhaps hit someone in the foot,) would not the USPSA program at that club been held in part responsible for failure to enforce safety standards? I suspect they would.

There have been times I've been setting up the night before the match. I'm alone on the range and it's getting late (either dusk or dark.) If you're going to DQ me for wearing my carry gun you can find someone else to spend their friday night building stages. At my range, as long as concealed weapons stay concealed, you're good to go.

[spanky]

So if that's the case then you could be DQ'd on setup day if setup occurs the day before a match?

Are you implying that, on the day before the match, they set up the stages and, with no intent of shooting stages on that day, the shooter goes and puts on his gear and has a cocked pistol in his holster?

First, while not impossible, I think this situation is unlikely. Second, I believe setup and tear down are integral parts of the match. (Try holding a match without these functions!) Is there some reason we should not expect the same rules of match safety to apply during these time frames? Were the gun to have been loaded and gone bang (and perhaps hit someone in the foot,) would not the USPSA program at that club been held in part responsible for failure to enforce safety standards? I suspect they would.

Kind of tough to keep a crew of set-up helpers if they have to worry about having a gun pointed at them. Mike's comment, bolded above, might not be codified in the USPSA rules, but generally there are host range rules to consider as well. USPSA members are guests of the host facility, unless they hold a membership in the host facility. Either way, there are ways to deal with offenders....

I'm not talking about waving around unloaded guns, I'm talking about holstered carry guns.

[Nik Habicht]

So if that's the case then you could be DQ'd on setup day if setup occurs the day before a match?

Are you implying that, on the day before the match, they set up the stages and, with no intent of shooting stages on that day, the shooter goes and puts on his gear and has a cocked pistol in his holster?

First, while not impossible, I think this situation is unlikely. Second, I believe setup and tear down are integral parts of the match. (Try holding a match without these functions!) Is there some reason we should not expect the same rules of match safety to apply during these time frames? Were the gun to have been loaded and gone bang (and perhaps hit someone in the foot,) would not the USPSA program at that club been held in part responsible for failure to enforce safety standards? I suspect they would.

Kind of tough to keep a crew of set-up helpers if they have to worry about having a gun pointed at them. Mike's comment, bolded above, might not be codified in the USPSA rules, but generally there are host range rules to consider as well. USPSA members are guests of the host facility, unless they hold a membership in the host facility. Either way, there are ways to deal with offenders....

I'm not talking about waving around unloaded guns, I'm talking about holstered carry guns.

It really depends on the situation, doesn't it? If you're by yourself the night before the match, it might be prudent to have a hot gun. Our club has a policy against carrying hot guns on the range -- which I always comply with if I'm not alone on the property. When shooting on the rifle range, by myself, I sling the rifle before pasting targets, and I make sure there's at least one loaded mag on my person....

Now, if you're setting up with a small group of other shooters/match staff -- it becomes a somewhat different situation....

And finally if it's fullblown all in one day, from set-up to teardown, with people building stages, competitors registering and folks generally milling around -- then I believe that USPSA's cold range rules apply....

[Schutzenmeister]

I wouldn't argue a lot with what Nik just posted ...

[ima45dv8]

I believe that once you enter the range on Match Day or match build day, unless you are on a separate area designated as separate from the match, you are at the match and the match rules apply.

I was beating the snot out of this question of "when does a match start" a couple of years ago. I was preparing for my first opportunity to serve as RM at a Level II event and came across Appendix C1, Item 2 where it specifically mentions "Prior to commencement of a match....". That raised a question that I could not readily resolve. "When does a match commence?"

I searched and searched, and sought the opinions of some folks I trust. We debated and exchanged and argued, and what I finally came to is this....There is no clear-cut rule written regarding when a match begins for you, because we don't know when you will arrive.

If you think there should be, I'd love to hear the final wording of that rule (I tried to write one myself). If a defined timestamp were used, such as 12:01AM, simply putting on your carry gun that morning at home to drive to the match would subject you to violation. And that's only one problem.

The match begins for each of us when we arrive at the match. I am comfortable with the realization the match begins at different times for each competitor based on when they arrive at the match.

Handle your gun in the parking lot? You are at the match and it's a DQ.

Handle ammo in the safe area or pull your gun outside of the safe area? You are at the match and it's a DQ.

If you do those things on match day, whether the sun has risen or not, whether a shot has been fired to calibrate steel or not, whether the command has been issued to the RO crews to start running competitors has been given or not, it's match day and you have to behave accordingly once you arrive.

That there may be other bays available for shooting on the same range on the same day gets a pass only if you haven't registered as a competitor for that event in advance, and do not walk over to the registration table to sign up that day.

If someone can point to a rule that disputes this, cool. Until then I'm going to exercise the (hopefully) good judgment I was told I need in my pocket and use the yardstick of "when someone arrives, they are then beholdin' to all match rules and covenants".

[mactiger]

I skimmed the book and I see not even a remotely vague suggestion of what the start of a match is. I'm at work so I couldn't read more in-depth, however.

See 6.5.3. The match starts on the first day that competitors shoot for score. The person in question is DQ'd for UGH, specifically unsupervised gun handling, 10.5.1

I'd say that you aren't at the match officially until you are on the actual property where the match is staged. For example, you would not be at Nationals until you pass the DSRPC gates, on match day as above.

Troy

Edited July 13, 2011 by mactiger

[ima45dv8]

I skimmed the book and I see not even a remotely vague suggestion of what the start of a match is. I'm at work so I couldn't read more in-depth, however.

See 6.5.3. The match starts on the first day that competitors shoot for score. The person in question is DQ'd for UGH, specifically unsupervised gun handling, 10.5.1

I absolutely agree with that.

Is there something that says when on that day the match starts? As mentioned before, I'm looking for that line that says from this point forward a competitors actions fall under the purview of the match.

Is my, "it starts when they arrive" idea stinky cheese?

[Tim/GA]

Thus the sign I stick in the road (as it turns on the gun club property) before each match- makes it pretty clear cut then. Had some issues when I took over earlier this year as MD and we happened to start getting a bunch of new shooters. Gun club rules do not make this an issue, but match rules supersede club rules in this issue and the sign is one last reminder.

[mactiger]

I skimmed the book and I see not even a remotely vague suggestion of what the start of a match is. I'm at work so I couldn't read more in-depth, however.

See 6.5.3. The match starts on the first day that competitors shoot for score. The person in question is DQ'd for UGH, specifically unsupervised gun handling, 10.5.1

I absolutely agree with that.

Is there something that says when on that day the match starts? As mentioned before, I'm looking for that line that says from this point forward a competitors actions fall under the purview of the match.

Is my, "it starts when they arrive" idea stinky cheese?

There isn't a specific rule that I know of, but we always use the time the gate opens and match officials are on site. So, I don't think you are off with that idea, because a competitor would have to be on the property on match day. Show up at 0700, gates open, you are at the match. Show up at 0900, you are at the match. IMO, you have to satisfy both conditions to be considered "at the match".

Troy

[twodownzero]

it might be a permanent disinvitation from the hosting facility. Note that we would make that decision as members of the hosting club, not as a USPSA decision....

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Any club that disinvites a card-carrying USPSA member from its USPSA matches without getting permission from higher up in USPSA needs to have its ability to host USPSA matches investigated. I understand your position and I sympathize to a point. I've also shot at your club and not found there to be any issues. But I am also of the position that there is a strong presumption that a card-carrying USPSA member should be able to shoot at any USPSA match unless there is a documented history of serious safety violations that is communicated up into our organization. This is not a decision that I would prefer to see at the local level.

A call to local police might be in order could be local laws cover this.

I seriously doubt that action would be against the law in any state.

And Chuck ... as I recall you have an LEO background ... Absent someone actually being injured, what do you think the odds would be that a local prosecutor would even agree to accept the case? Slim to none, I suspect!

I can't imagine my office would, but I can't speak for the attorneys.

Chuck makes some good points and is a perfect example of how things are more complicated at the local level. IF this were a major there would be no other bays not under supervision, but in the local level you often see this.

How I personally handle this is to grab another guy not shooting and bring him over to the bay not being used and have him/her supervise my gun handling. There are many of these type of deals at locals that must be looked at on a case by case. What needs to happen is a fair minded person using the rules of both the USPSA and the range to determine the applicable action. This type of deal is often not black and white....

In this case where a guy pulled the gun and dropped the hammer between a couple of guys and without asking for supervision or going to the safe area.... DQ

JT

I'm reminded of a day at the 2010 Indiana Sectional where you and I, after finishing setting up, were shooting in an unoccupied bay and checking our guns out. Should we have been DQed?

Note that this is a JOKE...of course there were several ROs, including myself, present (just for the record).

[JThompson]

it might be a permanent disinvitation from the hosting facility. Note that we would make that decision as members of the hosting club, not as a USPSA decision....

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Any club that disinvites a card-carrying USPSA member from its USPSA matches without getting permission from higher up in USPSA needs to have its ability to host USPSA matches investigated. I understand your position and I sympathize to a point. I've also shot at your club and not found there to be any issues. But I am also of the position that there is a strong presumption that a card-carrying USPSA member should be able to shoot at any USPSA match unless there is a documented history of serious safety violations that is communicated up into our organization. This is not a decision that I would prefer to see at the local level.

A call to local police might be in order could be local laws cover this.

I seriously doubt that action would be against the law in any state.

And Chuck ... as I recall you have an LEO background ... Absent someone actually being injured, what do you think the odds would be that a local prosecutor would even agree to accept the case? Slim to none, I suspect!

I can't imagine my office would, but I can't speak for the attorneys.

Chuck makes some good points and is a perfect example of how things are more complicated at the local level. IF this were a major there would be no other bays not under supervision, but in the local level you often see this.

How I personally handle this is to grab another guy not shooting and bring him over to the bay not being used and have him/her supervise my gun handling. There are many of these type of deals at locals that must be looked at on a case by case. What needs to happen is a fair minded person using the rules of both the USPSA and the range to determine the applicable action. This type of deal is often not black and white....

In this case where a guy pulled the gun and dropped the hammer between a couple of guys and without asking for supervision or going to the safe area.... DQ

JT

I'm reminded of a day at the 2010 Indiana Sectional where you and I, after finishing setting up, were shooting in an unoccupied bay and checking our guns out. Should we have been DQed?

Note that this is a JOKE...of course there were several ROs, including myself, present (just for the record).

Heh, Yup, I had cleared that with the MD and it was the day BEFORE the first day of shooting. The staff shot the next day and the competitors the following day. We were good.

[Poppa Bear]

The answer is dependent on your position within the organization. If you are one of the key players within the club, you are one of the parties responsible for controlling gun handling. If you are the one wanting to test your gun, load , whatever..... you notify the other key members of your intent and then go do it. If the party is not one of the key members then they approach one who is and gets their permission to conduct the activity. It is all about safety and accountability. If I know what you want to do and I OK it then you are good to go. If other key members are around I clear it/ inform them of the activity. If we the key members are not concerned with the shooting taking place on another portion of the range then the other members immediately recognize that the activity has been authorized.

If I am at all unsure about your abilities I will either oversee you myself or assign another party to oversee your activities to ensure that when you return to the "USPSA match" you are fully compliant with ULSC ICHDH. If the situation takes place during the match then all activities are directly RO supervised from within the active berms. An example being a gun breaks during a stage and the shooter has repaired it. Now they want to fire a few rounds to ensure everything is fully functional and safe, or do they need to bag the gun because the problem is still not fixed. We use most of the usual RO commands: MR, IFUSC, ICHDH, RIC. If the gun passes they are good to go, if it fails or still has problems then try again or bag it because you cannot compete until it passes a function test under RO supervision.

[Nik Habicht]

it might be a permanent disinvitation from the hosting facility. Note that we would make that decision as members of the hosting club, not as a USPSA decision....

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Any club that disinvites a card-carrying USPSA member from its USPSA matches without getting permission from higher up in USPSA needs to have its ability to host USPSA matches investigated.

I'm not sure there's really a budget for that. I'm also certain that this is a situation where you'd better be careful what you wish for -- lest USPSA simply disappears from a facility, a decision that would certainly affect more than one member of the organization. Who's going to do the investigating?

I understand your position and I sympathize to a point. I've also shot at your club and not found there to be any issues.

Good. In ten years of shooting matches at that club, and eight years of being involved in running 'em, there's been a single incident -- and since it involved a member of the hosting facility, so it was handled as an internal club matter.

But I am also of the position that there is a strong presumption that a card-carrying USPSA member should be able to shoot at any USPSA match unless there is a documented history of serious safety violations that is communicated up into our organization. This is not a decision that I would prefer to see at the local level.

Documented history? Implying more than one act? So, I'm guessing that you'd be o.k. with the competitor who flipped a gun around in the air during unloading and then caught it, still being able to shoot USPSA matches? After all there's no history.....

I'm not certain you fully comprehend the overlapping interests of USPSA, the local match and the hosting facility. Yes, the hosting facility extends an invitation to all USPSA members to participate. That invitation comes with strings attached -- a certain modicum of responsible behavior and concern for everyone's safety is expected. The people running matches -- at least in my section -- are pretty openminded, so it would take a lot for them to send someone packing permanently.

You're way beyond breaking a safety rule in these situations, and as a club member I have a responsibility to the hosting facility as well. They expect me to bring "safety concerns" involving fellow club members to the board, and to handle them for non-members. We're not talking about DQs here -- which are an accepted part of managing safety concerns at the match. We are talking about situations where there is either a pattern (in which case I'd want to inform USPSA/other Section clubs as well, possibly petition the Board to have someone stripped of their membership) or a single egregious violation; egregious because the competitor can't or won't acknowledge the mistake....

[Nik Habicht]

The answer is dependent on your position within the organization. If you are one of the key players within the club, you are one of the parties responsible for controlling gun handling. If you are the one wanting to test your gun, load , whatever..... you notify the other key members of your intent and then go do it. If the party is not one of the key members then they approach one who is and gets their permission to conduct the activity. It is all about safety and accountability. If I know what you want to do and I OK it then you are good to go. If other key members are around I clear it/ inform them of the activity. If we the key members are not concerned with the shooting taking place on another portion of the range then the other members immediately recognize that the activity has been authorized.

If I am at all unsure about your abilities I will either oversee you myself or assign another party to oversee your activities to ensure that when you return to the "USPSA match" you are fully compliant with ULSC ICHDH. If the situation takes place during the match then all activities are directly RO supervised from within the active berms. An example being a gun breaks during a stage and the shooter has repaired it. Now they want to fire a few rounds to ensure everything is fully functional and safe, or do they need to bag the gun because the problem is still not fixed. We use most of the usual RO commands: MR, IFUSC, ICHDH, RIC. If the gun passes they are good to go, if it fails or still has problems then try again or bag it because you cannot compete until it passes a function test under RO supervision.

We send an RO with any competitor needing to function fire/sight in a gun. Not only is it prudent, it also gets us around any potential concerns raised by third parties.

[Schutzenmeister]

I skimmed the book and I see not even a remotely vague suggestion of what the start of a match is. I'm at work so I couldn't read more in-depth, however.

See 6.5.3. The match starts on the first day that competitors shoot for score. The person in question is DQ'd for UGH, specifically unsupervised gun handling, 10.5.1

I absolutely agree with that.

Is there something that says when on that day the match starts? As mentioned before, I'm looking for that line that says from this point forward a competitors actions fall under the purview of the match.

Is my, "it starts when they arrive" idea stinky cheese?

There isn't a specific rule that I know of, but we always use the time the gate opens and match officials are on site. So, I don't think you are off with that idea, because a competitor would have to be on the property on match day. Show up at 0700, gates open, you are at the match. Show up at 0900, you are at the match. IMO, you have to satisfy both conditions to be considered "at the match".

Troy

Troy

For the sake of clarity ...

I think we should remind folks that includes the "staff pre-match" squadding especially where those scores will count in the main match. Even though it may be labled "pre-match" or "staff/vendors match" you still have competitors shooting for score, hence per 6.5.3 all safety rules should apply. (6.5.3 references 6.5.1 and 2 wherein pre-match competition is addressed.)

[mactiger]

I thought that was pretty clear, but if it makes you happy....

[Schutzenmeister]

I thought that was pretty clear, but if it makes you happy....

Dunno ... But given some of the discussion on that OTHER thread I thought it only prudent to clarify and ensure everyone was on the same page!!!

[West Texas Granny]

The following is my opinion

1. The match officially begins at the scheduled setup time.

2. The match officially ends once takedown is complete.

3. Shooting on another range/ bay not reserved for that days match is outside the authority of those running the match and therefore is open for shooting by those participating in the match if they so choose. The exception is once the safety briefing is given no one can shoot on another range/bay until the last shooter of their squad has completed the COF for that day.

[aztecdriver]

1. And 2. Are not supported in the rules and those rules have already stated when match begins and match ends and it has nothing to do with setup and teardown 3. Sounds within reason except that there is nothing that says you can't shoot somewhere else as long as you are present at the appropriate time to shoot your cof. Function fire sometimes is required mid match, but in those situations it's best for the match to occupy another bay for that purpose.