Gunsmith time ?

[Wild Gene]

Disreguard, I figured it out.

Does anyone have a good grasp on what "gunsmith time" is. I've heard several different explainations, but does anyone have a definitive answer?

Thanks,

WG

Edited April 11, 2011 by Wild Gene

[ChuckS]

It depends...

[GrumpyOne]

"GunSmith Time"....GST-6...GunSmith time is actually slower than normal time, by a factor of 6, meaning that a gunsmith will give you a date when something is supposed to be done, but being gunsmith time, you must times that by two, and then add 4 more months to it. It also depends on the relative location of the gunsmith...Some are on GST-8, or even GST-10. These are questions which should be asked of the gunsmith before selecting them to do the work you wished to be performed. Like, "What GST are you in?", and "Do you forsee a change in you GST during the middle of the project I sent to you?" Sometimes, the gunsmith can predict his/her GST and will respond accordingly.

Some gunsmiths are confused as to what GST they are supposed to be in, and sometimes will give erroneous complete times. It is not their fault, their GST can and does change depending on the season, and it gives no warning when it does.

A large GST (such as GST-10) can sometimes lead to other complications, like the inability to call or email a customer to update them about their project. This inability is sometimes caused by the gunsmith trying to make his GST smaller, by getting work done, instead of chatting with the people for whom he's doing the work. Sometimes this phenomenon can cause a gunsmith's GST to revert back to absolute normal time, when all the customers he has (had), leave after their project is complete and do not recommend that gunsmith to anyone else.

Hope this helps!

[NoSteel]

[tracker]

Sounds to me they need a kick in the $%^^.

[Wild Gene]

As a side not here, great things often take time. There is no offense intended to any gunsmiths.

I am a farmer/rancher, we have almost the same thing known as "Farmer And Rancher Time", or FART for short. This varies by season, as I now know GST does too,the dry season is not too bad, but wet "FART" season can be a real mess. I know sometimes things can really pile up in FART pretty quickly.

I appreciate the replies so far. It gives me a much better understanding, but would still appreciate any other interesting tidbits on GST. Apparently, the GST calendar has a bunch of squares but no words or numbers on it, is that correct?

Thank you,

WG

[latech15]

Yep,

Some will promise you a completed project in 6 weeks, then not be able to even actually get to it in 6 months. They will refuse to answer emails and phone calls, and then send nasty emails back to you when they hear through the grapevine that you have the audacity to question whether they will even honor the latest promise. They will then give you 6 kinds of hell when you respectfully ask for your money back.

Lets just say this particular set of circumstances happened to "a friend".

[Wild Gene]

Please, this is not a "bashing" thread.

[latech15]

Not bashing, just explaining the way some gunsmiths operate. I didn't/won't provide the name.

[Toolguy]

I happen to be friends with a very good and dedicated full time gunsmith. As there is no set standard way of running a gunsmith shop, I suspect there is a lot of variation in how things are done. I will try to explain his operation in my own words.

He operates on GAS (Gunsmith Anticipated Schedule) time. There are only months and squares on his calendar because working 7 days a week, every day is like every other day, therefore no need to differentiate with days of the week or dates. However it is handy to know the month in order to anticipate the more major events such as hunting season, tax time, visits from the ATF, etc.

He does a lot of extra LABOR (Long hours At Bench On Request) because nearly everyone says "Oh and while you're at it, do this and this too". Also, it is a well known law of physics that everything takes longer to do than estimated unless you are able to work at the speed of light, thereby making time stand still.

He often has to search out and order PARTS (Pieces Anticipated but Rarely There on Schedule).

The gunsmith often has an ever increasing amount of GAS due to PARTS and LABOR through no fault of his own. Sometimes a customer is adversely affected by GAS as well, and when it all blows up the resulting explosion can be catastrophic.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Toolguy

[flack jacket]

I used to have work done like that.. GST/GAS used to equal 2+ years. Sad to say, years ago, Dad and I ordered 2 only received 1 of 2. Never delivered the 2nd one since he has passed on. RIP

My current project is 50% done after 1 week and anticipate shootable by week 2 !!

The parts took longer to arrive due to Backorder...

I've even heard 3D GST (3 day GST)

Edited April 10, 2011 by flack jacket

[Wild Gene]

Toolguy, thank you very much for explaining GAS to me. It sounds a lot like FART. You just never know if things are going to work out as planned or when you may get a surprise package or something like that.

I am beginning to see the correllation between GST, GAS and FART. Well, I think, maybe.

WG

Edited April 10, 2011 by Wild Gene

[GrumpyOne]

Now you know.....

Gene, I hate to say it (and it would irritate me to no end as well, being in your position), but it will take as long as it takes. It's not a good answer, but it is an answer.....

Luck to you, brother......

[Wild Gene]

Oh I am fine. I am also much wiser now. You figure their phone rings every day. Running a business. Play time. Servicing or repair existing product. Emails. Cell phones. This is really more for the benefit of someone that has no clue. Heck, I had an idea, but really not entirely.

I am begrudging no one, especially since I talked to another guy that has been waiting almost a month longer. I remember Rob Letham on a show talking about waiting several years for a rifle. One day it just kind of showed up. I myself waited about 3 years for a Shiloh Sharps, although I had expected to wait 4 years when I placed the order.

Nope, this is about nothing more than helping myself and others understand just a little bit more about gunsmithing.

WG

[japeto]

Hmmm, as a practicing gunsmith of 34 years full time work. I find "Gunsmith Time" to be quite an insult. A professional gunsmith's time is about 65 to 80 hours a week. As so very much of that time is spent listening to customer's descriptions of what he bought, how the bought it, how the found it, how grandpa fed the family with it how he felt after shooting last week . Etc. I charge partly as a counselor and as a gunsmith too when the time arises. Often a "Gunsmiths time" is spent by listening to customers explain how to do a job I have done 100 or maybe 500 times.

A "Gunsmiths Time" is filled with looking for parts a customer has asked the gunsmith to look for. Never mind the internet has been around along time, most customers can spell and google is free. My time should not be. One hour in the morning answering questions for free on e-mail. An hour writing guns in and out of the log books. Two to three hours every few days looking for and ordering parts, finding information on new procedures, looking up historical dates for customers. Then there is machinery upkeep, cleaning the shop, etc. The only way a gunsmith can make any money is to be closed as many days as possible. Being open one day would be ideal so there was less conversation and more work getting done. This is in a field so very difficult to learn it takes a minimum of ten years to start knowing what you are doing well enough to make decent money. A profession so arcane even wives and co-workers do not understand what the gunsmith does. A profession requiring 50 to 100 K investment made over 20 years to "arrive". A professional gunsmith will schedule the work on a calendar. do his best to stick to it. And if there is a blip, call the customer and explain. Even with this straight forward clerical work, the customer often confuses one month with two. A call yesterday by an irate customer upset that his gun was not done by now as it had been two months. The card write in date was only 28 days old. Customers do not read signs. Customers do not remember what gun they left. Customers listen to answering machine telling the hours and days clearly and then on a closed day drive 50 miles and kick the door and curse me to God. I hear this often. I'm inside repairing 1900 guns a year and if I stop to talk to them, I lose $2.33 per minute. With 250 guns to work on and a non-stop stream of questions and endless phone calls, I am surprised I get anything done at all. Thank god there are few gunsmiths out there or I would not be so busy. And thank god for my customers. 95 % whom are completely sane. It's the other 5% who give me crap about "Gunsmith Time." In all fairness, I DO understand the complaint. I do not repair my own motorcycle any more. Those damned Ninja repairmen probably sit around goofing off most of the time, drinking beer, playing with their own bikes. I bet they have a 40 hour workweek and make too much money too. Oh the Protocol Design fellow is a good pal of mine and he works more than I and is too nice to be sure. I am the grumpy evil one who locks the door and files away on bbls as the irate kick my door yelling at God.

[Wild Gene]

As a side not here, great things often take time. There is no offense intended to any gunsmiths.

Thank you,

WG

Please, this is not a "bashing" thread.

You figure their phone rings every day. Running a business. Play time. Servicing or repair existing product. Emails. Cell phones. .

Nope, this is about nothing more than helping myself and others understand just a little bit more about gunsmithing.

WG

I find "Gunsmith Time" to be quite an insult.

A profession requiring 50 to 100 K investment made over 20 years to "arrive".

I am the grumpy evil one who locks the door and files away on bbls as the irate kick my door yelling at God.

Maybe you should be mad at Rob Letham, as I believe he is where I first heard, but did not understand, the term. No insult intended.

Try farming or raising livestock.

If you want, you can come work cows with me some time. I'll give you a whip and you can have at'em. Just no hitting in the head, and they kick back (and for some reason, it is usually right in the "package".

Hey, first post! Welcome to the forum.

WG

[Skydiver]

Hmmm, as a practicing gunsmith of 34 years full time work. I find "Gunsmith Time" to be quite an insult. A professional gunsmith's time is about 65 to 80 hours a week. As so very much of that time is spent listening to customer's descriptions of what he bought, how the bought it, how the found it, how grandpa fed the family with it how he felt after shooting last week . Etc. I charge partly as a counselor and as a gunsmith too when the time arises. Often a "Gunsmiths time" is spent by listening to customers explain how to do a job I have done 100 or maybe 500 times.

A "Gunsmiths Time" is filled with looking for parts a customer has asked the gunsmith to look for. Never mind the internet has been around along time, most customers can spell and google is free. My time should not be. One hour in the morning answering questions for free on e-mail. An hour writing guns in and out of the log books. Two to three hours every few days looking for and ordering parts, finding information on new procedures, looking up historical dates for customers. Then there is machinery upkeep, cleaning the shop, etc. The only way a gunsmith can make any money is to be closed as many days as possible. Being open one day would be ideal so there was less conversation and more work getting done. This is in a field so very difficult to learn it takes a minimum of ten years to start knowing what you are doing well enough to make decent money. A profession so arcane even wives and co-workers do not understand what the gunsmith does. A profession requiring 50 to 100 K investment made over 20 years to "arrive". A professional gunsmith will schedule the work on a calendar. do his best to stick to it. And if there is a blip, call the customer and explain. Even with this straight forward clerical work, the customer often confuses one month with two. A call yesterday by an irate customer upset that his gun was not done by now as it had been two months. The card write in date was only 28 days old. Customers do not read signs. Customers do not remember what gun they left. Customers listen to answering machine telling the hours and days clearly and then on a closed day drive 50 miles and kick the door and curse me to God. I hear this often. I'm inside repairing 1900 guns a year and if I stop to talk to them, I lose $2.33 per minute. With 250 guns to work on and a non-stop stream of questions and endless phone calls, I am surprised I get anything done at all. Thank god there are few gunsmiths out there or I would not be so busy. And thank god for my customers. 95 % whom are completely sane. It's the other 5% who give me crap about "Gunsmith Time." In all fairness, I DO understand the complaint. I do not repair my own motorcycle any more. Those damned Ninja repairmen probably sit around goofing off most of the time, drinking beer, playing with their own bikes. I bet they have a 40 hour workweek and make too much money too. Oh the Protocol Design fellow is a good pal of mine and he works more than I and is too nice to be sure. I am the grumpy evil one who locks the door and files away on bbls as the irate kick my door yelling at God.

@japeto: That was an amazing post that gives us uninitiated insight it what goes into gunsmith's typical workload.

It would be great if you get in touch with Robin Taylor of Insight and work with him to get this printed!

Edited April 11, 2011 by Skydiver

[Pro-Pain]

As a side not here, great things often take time. There is no offense intended to any gunsmiths.

I am a farmer/rancher, we have almost the same thing known as "Farmer And Rancher Time", or FART for short. This varies by season, as I now know GST does too,the dry season is not too bad, but wet "FART" season can be a real mess. I know sometimes things can really pile up in FART pretty quickly.

Ugh, you're telling me how bad unexpected F.A.R.T.'s can be! I thought I had a F.A.R.T., but it was really "Cattle Rustling Along Prairie Path, Expect Delays: Missing Young Pony, Add 'Nother Two-weeks Searching..." (C.R.A.P.P.E.D.M.Y.P.A.N.T.S.)

[benny hill]

DITTO's to japeto for hitting the nail on the head.

[Chris Keen]

NOTICE: Please don't upset, or stir up the gunsmiths ....... we who don't shoot Glocks need them. Thank you!

[Wild Gene]

I actually think japeto did did hit the nail on the head too.

Leave them the heck alone unless you need something.

Don't tie up their time wanting to know how things are going every couple weeks.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Anyone have anything new to add, without turning it into a bitching session?

if not, stop poking it with sticks.

[Loves2Shoot]

Japeto has some good points, but if you have a backlog of a couple hundred guns, get some help, you can afford it

I have a great crew, but we couldn't survive having people coming to the shop to get work done, it just kills too much time with people wanting to visit, so I can empathize with smiths that work that way.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Loves2Shoot

[3gunfun]

You guys are just too funny. I lost track of time(GST-something) reading this post, had a little GAS and tryed to FART only to CRAPMYPANTS. Hey I think I smell something?? Ahh, just a little gun oil on my factory STI.

[cas]

I've had GST be off in the other direction as well. I once sent a contender barrel half way across the country to be rechamberd, sent it on a monday and had it back in my hands on friday! I thought they'd sent it back without opening the box. lol

I also had one rifle cut, crowned and the sight remounted that was quoted at a month or more take only a week. Of course that same gunsmith did a pistol project for me that was quoted at 4 months, and in the end it was over 24 months. So you never know.

Edited April 16, 2011 by cas