Understanding 5.2.4

[JakeMartens]

Thanks

I think we spend way to much time trying to read stuff into rules that isn't there

I'd call loose rounds in my pocket "spare ammunition". Wouldn't you?

Troy

You are talking about having a barney round in a pocket after the start signal

it says spare ammunition, but yes I see what you are saying, but the may also part of the rule would include the spare ammunition. As long as in Production or Single Stack it is behind the hid bone.

Barney round in a front pocket or shirt pocket would be illegal in those two divisions, but in a back pocket you are good to go

I don't see where it includes loose ammo:

"may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)"

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Exactly.

"spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose."

"may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)"

I don't see a provision for loose ammo in pockets.

[twodownzero]

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Does this mean that a competitor is not allowed to carry loose ammo in their pocket during the COF, even if the pocket location is division-compliant?

No. It provides some basic guidance in line with best practices ("shall be carried") while leaving plenty of leeway for competitors who want to practice the same way they carry, or for new competitors who may not have an adequate number of magpouches....

If you check Meriam-Webster online the seemingly applicable definition of shall is: "used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory"

I was thinking about this rule because I normally put the 11th round from my first mag in my pocket for unloaded starts, and it just dawned on me that it is technically illegal.

We don't have an official dictionary to define words used in the rulebook. Clearly there's a distinction between "must," used elsewhere in section 5.2, and "shall."

Bottom line -- this got kicked around briefly at the RO class I attended last fall, and unless there's a division prohibition on a particular pocket, you're golden...

I wouldn't say it's clear that "must" and "shall" are different. Most of the time, those words mean the same thing.

I'd call loose rounds in my pocket "spare ammunition". Wouldn't you?

Troy

Yep, and if not, if the rules were indeed silent on a subject, no penalty could be applied.

[spanky]

I added another mag pouch to my belt once this was clarified so I didn't mistakenly put my start mag in my front pocket. I guess I'll make a mental note to toss my 11th round on the ground on an unloaded start stage.

[Nik Habicht]

We covered this in class with Carl Schmidt in February. As long as you do not retrieve and use it you are fine, you can have loose ammo or a full mag in your front pocket as long as you dont use it.

Brian

Do I have this right? You were taught in your class that a production/ss shooter may carry a loaded mag in his pocket, in front of his hipbone, during a COF, as long as he doesn't use it.

I think per the rulebook it's a problem --- but since I don't have x-ray vision, unless the shooter uses said mag during the course of fire, I'm not likely to know that it's there....

I'm not scrutinizing shooter's pockets that closely. Now, if the mag's poking out the top and I notice it, that could be a different story, depending on the circumstances...

[mhs]

I'd call loose rounds in my pocket "spare ammunition". Wouldn't you?

Troy

Yes, I would.

5.2.4 states:

"During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose."

So spare ammo is fine, as long as it is carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt.

5.2.4 also states:

"Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)"...

No mention of spare ammo in pockets as an exception.

What am I missing?

[Sarge]

Am I doing something wrong here? Am I the only one who uses an 11 round mag to load the gun at Make Ready in Production? I mean, I load an 11 round mag and put it in the gun and rack the slide and holster. Unless you can only use or only have 10 round mags why do it any other way?

Also, am i the only guy who knows what the next stage entails before stepping to the line? If it is a table start or unloaded start, etc I only go to the line with 10 rounds in any mags. A little course management goes a long way in eliminating potential rules issues.

[GrumpyOne]

You are talking about having a barney round in a pocket after the start signal

it says spare ammunition, but yes I see what you are saying, but the may also part of the rule would include the spare ammunition. As long as in Production or Single Stack it is behind the hid bone.

Barney round in a front pocket or shirt pocket would be illegal in those two divisions, but in a back pocket you are good to go

I don't see where it includes loose ammo:

"may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)"

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

The way I read that is this: After the start signal, you can carry your mags just about anywhere you'd like, unless the WSB says you can't, and you aren't shooting production or SS. On another note, it says nothing about carrying loose ammo in your front pockets for production or SS.

Unless specifically prohibited

in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor

may also carry additional magazines or speed loading

devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and

use them without penalty, providing that the location

of the apparel pocket does not violate the

requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to

the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Per appendix D, the mags must be behind the hip for production and SS, but the rule above stipulates [b]"additional magazines or speed loading devices"[/b]. It does not say you can't carry loose ammo in your front pockets, only speed loaders or mags. By what the rule states, you can carry 50 loose rounds in each pocket, and retrieve them and load your mags...Only mags and speed loaders are prohibited from being carried in those front pockets. It is legal to carry loose ammo in them, even in production and SS, unless it is in the WSB that loose ammo can't be carried there. To quote one of the forum mods, "Unless it is specifically prohibited, it must be allowed."

Edited April 6, 2011 by GrumpyOne

[GrumpyOne]

Am I doing something wrong here? Am I the only one who uses an 11 round mag to load the gun at Make Ready in Production? I mean, I load an 11 round mag and put it in the gun and rack the slide and holster. Unless you can only use or only have 10 round mags why do it any other way?

Also, am i the only guy who knows what the next stage entails before stepping to the line? If it is a table start or unloaded start, etc I only go to the line with 10 rounds in any mags. A little course management goes a long way in eliminating potential rules issues.

No Sarge, you and I do the same. I load an 11 round mag, place it at the hardest spot for me to reach on my belt, and load that one at "Load and make ready" command. And yes, I know what the stage entails before I step up to the line, whether it's an unloaded start, table start, etc., and load my mags accordingly.

[CZinSC]

Am I doing something wrong here? Am I the only one who uses an 11 round mag to load the gun at Make Ready in Production? I mean, I load an 11 round mag and put it in the gun and rack the slide and holster. Unless you can only use or only have 10 round mags why do it any other way?

Also, am i the only guy who knows what the next stage entails before stepping to the line? If it is a table start or unloaded start, etc I only go to the line with 10 rounds in any mags. A little course management goes a long way in eliminating potential rules issues.

No Sarge, you and I do the same. I load an 11 round mag, place it at the hardest spot for me to reach on my belt, and load that one at "Load and make ready" command. And yes, I know what the stage entails before I step up to the line, whether it's an unloaded start, table start, etc., and load my mags accordingly.

Same here. All the mags on my belt have 10, the one I load at MR is in my pocket with 11. If the COF is unloaded start, or unchambered round, I put the 11th round back in the ammo box before I step to the line. there is plenty of time to do this when you are On Deck or "in the hole".

[spanky]

Am I doing something wrong here? Am I the only one who uses an 11 round mag to load the gun at Make Ready in Production? I mean, I load an 11 round mag and put it in the gun and rack the slide and holster. Unless you can only use or only have 10 round mags why do it any other way?

Also, am i the only guy who knows what the next stage entails before stepping to the line? If it is a table start or unloaded start, etc I only go to the line with 10 rounds in any mags. A little course management goes a long way in eliminating potential rules issues.

Nope, I do the same.

The problem, it seems, is that if you pop that 11th round out of your start mag and place it in your front pocket to reload later, you're now shooting open.

Granted it's just a matter of putting it somewhere else but it could happen.

[Singlestack]

Oboy.

I can't wait until I get to pat down a Production shooter looking for a loose round in his pocket...

[SDM]

I guess this means you can't walk to the line with you starting mag in your hand either. Between this, the ejected round at unload/show clear ending up in my front pocket, and the stripes on the inside of my magwell, I'm really an open shooter and didn't know it. Sheesh!

[Gary Stevens]

Am I doing something wrong here? Am I the only one who uses an 11 round mag to load the gun at Make Ready in Production? I mean, I load an 11 round mag and put it in the gun and rack the slide and holster. Unless you can only use or only have 10 round mags why do it any other way?

Also, am i the only guy who knows what the next stage entails before stepping to the line? If it is a table start or unloaded start, etc I only go to the line with 10 rounds in any mags. A little course management goes a long way in eliminating potential rules issues.

Now now, let's leave common sense out of this

[GrumpyOne]

I must be missing something. Where does it specifically say you can't have a loose round in your front pocket?

[mhs]

I must be missing something. Where does it specifically say you can't have a loose round in your front pocket?

It doesn't say you can't have it in your front pocket, it does say that spare ammunition must be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt:

"During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose."

There are no exceptions listed afterward for spare ammo, only for mags and speedloading devices.

This is just like where you can carry your gun: The rules don't say that you can't put it in your front pocket, rather they say where it is allowed.

[ima45dv8]

Oboy.

I can't wait until I get to pat down a Production shooter looking for a loose round in his pocket...

You can't wait to do that?

I guess "Don't ask; Don't tell" just went out the window.

[Sarge]

Oboy.

I can't wait until I get to pat down a Production shooter looking for a loose round in his pocket...

You can't wait to do that?

I guess "Don't ask; Don't tell" just went out the window.

I can hear it now.

"Is that a round in your pocket or are you just glad I'm your RO?" :roflol:

[Singlestack]

Oboy.

I can't wait until I get to pat down a Production shooter looking for a loose round in his pocket...

You can't wait to do that?

I guess "Don't ask; Don't tell" just went out the window.

I can hear it now.

"Is that a round in your pocket or are you just glad I'm your RO?" :roflol:

That's funny as hell! Nice one Sarge!

[sperman]

Oboy.

I can't wait until I get to pat down a Production shooter looking for a loose round in his pocket...

I'm coming to Cherokee on Saturday. I'll make sure I'm not on your squad.

[Singlestack]

Oboy.

I can't wait until I get to pat down a Production shooter looking for a loose round in his pocket...

I'm coming to Cherokee on Saturday. I'll make sure I'm not on your squad.

Awwww

Whats a little pat down among friends?

[aztecdriver]

Whats a little pat down among friends?

Um - forum rules and decorum forbid me from stating precisely

I load 6 mags of 10 rnds. I never have to alter my mag loading for whatever stage. If the last mag having 9 is causing me a problem - then the stage is already TU.

[GrumpyOne]

I must be missing something. Where does it specifically say you can't have a loose round in your front pocket?

It doesn't say you can't have it in your front pocket, it does say that spare ammunition must be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt:

"During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose."

There are no exceptions listed afterward for spare ammo, only for mags and speedloading devices.

This is just like where you can carry your gun: The rules don't say that you can't put it in your front pocket, rather they say where it is allowed.

But then it goes on to say this:

Unless specifically prohibited

in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor

may also carry additional magazines or speed loading

devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and

use them without penalty, providing that the location

of the apparel pocket does not violate the

requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to

the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1)

Which is my point. Per that rule, no matter what division you are in, if you have one round in your front pocket, you are moved to open....Because it says "spare ammunition" must be carried on a belt.

I can read that to say that my pockets on my shooting pants are retention devices specifically designed to carry ammo and if the belt is built into the shooting pants.....

Personally, I think that if you want to carry loose ammo in your front pocket, stop and reload a mag from the loose ammo in your front pocket in the middle of a course of fire, and continue shooting, more power to you....That should be penalty enough.

[Zerwas]

Is it full body (TSA style) scanner time?

Man o man what a talker...

[sperman]

Oboy.

I can't wait until I get to pat down a Production shooter looking for a loose round in his pocket...

I'm coming to Cherokee on Saturday. I'll make sure I'm not on your squad.

Awwww

Whats a little pat down among friends?

On second thought, I'm going to make sure you RO me on the first stage (I'll be shooting SS.) I'll barney up from a 10 round mag that I take out of my front pocket, and put the mag back in my front pocket. At the end of the stage, I'll take the loose round and stick it in the same pocket. I'll make sure you see me so that when the buzzer goes off on stage 2 you'll have no doubt that I have a loose round in my front pocket.

I've never shot open before. It should be fun.

[Singlestack]

Oboy.

I can't wait until I get to pat down a Production shooter looking for a loose round in his pocket...

I'm coming to Cherokee on Saturday. I'll make sure I'm not on your squad.

Awwww

Whats a little pat down among friends?

On second thought, I'm going to make sure you RO me on the first stage (I'll be shooting SS.) I'll barney up from a 10 round mag that I take out of my front pocket, and put the mag back in my front pocket. At the end of the stage, I'll take the loose round and stick it in the same pocket. I'll make sure you see me so that when the buzzer goes off on stage 2 you'll have no doubt that I have a loose round in my front pocket.

I've never shot open before. It should be fun.

Oh man! That hurts my head!