OH MAN...BUBBLE BURST TODAY !

[BritinUSA]

Short courses do not always have to have shooting boxes. It can sometimes take more imagination to come up with a short stage than a big field course.

Here are a few from 1997 (UK)

BritinUSA.net

[Avezorak]

Short courses do not always have to have shooting boxes. It can sometimes take more imagination to come up with a short stage than a big field course.

Here are a few from 1997 (UK)

BritinUSA.net

Sweet! I wanna shoot from a rocking boat...

[ChuckS]

That strong hand to prone transition looked painful!

[Jim Norman]

I started out with a SS .45 with 10-round mags shooting Limited. There was one division and categories. Category one was Limited (Standard in MSS) Other categories were, oh, there weren't any. Well, Lady, Senior, Junior, and Mil.

I made C and won C shooting my trusty Series 70 Colt. I have since moved to Limited with a Para, SS with a Caspian, Production with a Sig, a Glock and an XD, Open with an old Para and L-10 with my Para or my Colt or my Caspian and Revo with a S&W.

To paraphrase Laura Ingram, Shut up and Shoot! Seriously, there are all sorts of matches to shoot in USPSA. Each club has a flavor all it's own depending upon the staff of designers and builders as well as the props available and the layout of the club.

One club we shoot at has a couple really tight bays, those stages usually are more technical, Other bays allow us to have longer shots and some more serious movement. The other 'home club' had very large bays, it was not uncommon to have 30 yard poppers or one target 'all the way over there' they have changed their layout and now the stage flavor has changed a bit.

Get involved, design the stages that you like to shoot, see if you can get one into your local match. If the shooters like it, you'll get an opportunity to design and build more, at least at most clubs.

Go, Shoot, have fun. Life is too short.

[Nik Habicht]

Now we have tried to put the genie back in the bottle with Production and Single Stack (to a certain degree Lim 10 but that was for legal reasons in some states)....

Actually the entire country -- L10 dates back to 2000 or so, right in the middle of ten round mags for everyone.....

[Shadowrider]

So I'm guessing you won't be making the Oklahoma Highcap Hosedown?

Location: Ponca City Rifle and Pistol Club

Date: April 30, 2011

Start time: Shooters meeting 8:30 am for early squad 1 pm for 2nd squad*

Limited to 80 shooters

Stages: 4

Round count: 240

Yup you read that right. I'm bringing extra ammo. Just sayin...

Disclaimer: Okay it's really an outlaw match. Had to do it though..

[belus]

Its not just equipment that has changed, shooters have gotten faster over the years too. (And before I'm called on it, I'd wager the IPSC gods of yesteryear that are still competitve today are also faster shooters today than they were then too.)

It'd be interesting to see how the high hit factor has changed on some of the old classifiers.

Stages: 4

Round count: 240

Yup you read that right. I'm bringing extra ammo. Just sayin...

I only have 51 rounds available on my production rig.

[TNK]

A shooter who started with practical or action pistol competitions in the 1960s (pre-IPSC) told me that the biggest misunderstanding about the old days is that the shooters were not “gamers” but some type of tough no-nonsense martial artists. He said nothing could be further from the truth. From the beginning people were looking to make it a more interesting game with variations on equipment or action to get a competitive edge. Time marches on and the variations on the game have multiplied.

To echo a comment above, study stage design and offer a few ones yourself on how you think the game should be played. Such an effort is satisfying, but I can tell you from personal experience it will not please everyone, and someone will be calling your version of the game “ridiculous.”

For instance, I have presented stages of my own design with plates or small poppers at 35 yards because I like that sort of thing. It forces the foot racers, at least most of them, to slow down to concentrate on accuracy for a moment. What griping I heard! Go figure. You can’t please everyone.

I agree that the trend in stage play has drifted to field courses, foot racing, and more rounds down range. There is no rule though that says it must be this way. It is a fad. Alternate courses can be presented, but don’t be surprised when the complaints follow about what happened to the “good old days” of the carnival events.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Trevor

[pjb45]

I believe more rounds down range = more fun.

Our club runs three stages with between 24-32 rounds, plus the classifier.

As an agent of change in my field, I embrace the changes that have occurred in the last ten years. I shoot my SS more than any other gun right now. I am competitive with myself more than with others.

You do not need a $3000 dollar race gun unless you want to be shooting in that division. There is no such thing as a level playing field, you can have boundries but that is about it. Open guns do not compete against SS.

The good old days are just old. Better days are those yet to come.

Edited April 6, 2011 by pjb45

[sargenv]

Low round count, high round count, all steel, all A zone hits, whatever... I still shoot the matches and I still use a full sized revolver shooting minor... 6 rounds at a time.. it's all fun.. and my 6 shooter DIDN'T cost $3000...

Edited April 6, 2011 by sargenv

[jhernandez]

I think I will make your last paragraph/sentence my signature if you don't mind...from pjb45's post.

Edited April 6, 2011 by jhernandez

[Ron Ankeny]

I believe more rounds down range = more fun.

That seems to be the trend. Local flavor here is for the higher round count hoser type of thing...and I do think that type of course design is fun. Thing is, the in your face hoser stuff tends to erode fundamentals a bit and then folks complain when they tank a classifier or can't make Master.

[Jim Norman]

No reason a 32 round course can't have accuracy as a requirement. Mix it up.

[ima45dv8]

No reason a 32 round course can't have accuracy as a requirement. Mix it up.

Yep.

[BritinUSA]

There's a lot to be said the for small/medium courses in my opinion. Fumble a reload while moving during a large field course and it may not necessarily cost you anything, do the same thing on a tight little course and you can blow the match right there.

With the smaller courses there is far less room for error, the shooter has to get everything right, foot speed won't make up for multiple D's. I think its a purer form of the sport, not to say that the big, 32 round stages aren't fun, they are. But the best shooters in the world will be the ones that finish well in all types of stages. Focusing almost exclusively on field stages will weaken your game in the long run, something I noticed early on when I first came to this country.

Back in England it was the 3-2-1 ratio, our ranges were typically smaller so we made use of that space with lots of small stages, a few medium and perhaps a couple of field stages. It tested all aspects of shooting, weak-hand, strong-hand, prone, you name it, we did it. I fondly remember weak-hand only reloads.

I'm pleased that Nationals is mixing the stages up a little, they are becoming more challenging each year, and many Colorado matches are putting medium stages into their events, along with an additional speed shoot now and again.

[Blueridge]

So I'm guessing you won't be making the Oklahoma Highcap Hosedown?

Location: Ponca City Rifle and Pistol Club

Date: April 30, 2011

Start time: Shooters meeting 8:30 am for early squad 1 pm for 2nd squad*

Limited to 80 shooters

Stages: 4

Round count: 240

Yup you read that right. I'm bringing extra ammo. Just sayin...

Disclaimer: Okay it's really an outlaw match. Had to do it though..

That would be a lot of revolver reloads. Approximately 9 reloads a stage barring the need for any makeup shots..... If I was close enough to attend I say BRING IT ON!!!

And as for the "old days" vs. "current", I think that Billy Joel said it best in the song "Keeping the Faith".

"You know the good old days weren't always good. Tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems."

Edited April 7, 2011 by Blueridge

[Jim Norman]

How about 32 rounds where the positions are so close that more than a step and a half is passing a shooting position. High round count, tight shots, no room to run, it is all shoot, reload and shoot again. the entire stage is done in under 15 seconds, probably less. Accuracy due to tight shots, high speed reloads due to no room to move and lots of shots to keep the hosers happy. Even have movers thrown in for fun. There is little we can not do if we put our minds to it.

[GrumpyOne]

How about 32 rounds where the positions are so close that more than a step and a half is passing a shooting position. High round count, tight shots, no room to run, it is all shoot, reload and shoot again. the entire stage is done in under 15 seconds, probably less. Accuracy due to tight shots, high speed reloads due to no room to move and lots of shots to keep the hosers happy. Even have movers thrown in for fun. There is little we can not do if we put our minds to it.

I like it! Sounds like a steel speed shoot! Now that would be fun!

[Steven Cline]

Okay Gang...

So, on another thread I was ranting about how in the old days of USPSA/IPSC thre were only two divisions. Semi-auto and revolver. You shot with whatever you brought. NO restrictions on magwells, holsters, magazine capacity, yadda yadda...

So I spent some time today watching a lot of different courses of fire on youtube. One club had several of their courses of fire and several shooters from their club shooting those COF. There was an extremely talented young lady shooting but I swear to you, I thought she was just spraying and praying. So I went back and slowly counted each target giving the benefit of the doubt that all paper got two shots and all steel one shot.

every course of fire had 30+ minimum rounds! One stage was a 40 round (at least thats what I am counting)!

Single stacks, limited 10, etc., truly do not stand a chance. How many mags do we need to shoot s simple sport? YOu mean I cant use a simploe add-on mag well for a single stack match? Seriosuly?

I would like to share a different perspective. I shoot Single stack. I stand a chance. It is reflected in the standings. Do the guys with the 20+ capacity Limited and Open guns have an advantage? Only if they are better shooters than me. I beat too many Limited and Open shooters for the gun to dictate whose going to beat me and my 8 rndrs.

Those long stages mean I get to shoot, a lot. I also get to reload, a lot. I need 5 mags to shoot any stage up to 41 rnds. One more in my back pocket for insurance. I'm OK with this.

32+ rnd stages are the exception, not the rule (except at Level III matches, then it is the rule)

I know that USPSA says that you dont need to have a $3,000 race gun to compete...but in reality, yes you do. Plain and simple. Well, I guess you don't if you're TGO, or Enos, Barnhart, Koenig, Fowler, McCormick, Plaxco, etc.

My perspective if the reason those fellas you named are the top of the lists has more to do with their skill and not their equipment. At some level I believe the $3k gun helps reveal the better shooter, but it doesn't make the better shooter. You can't give a talented B class shooter an Open gun and find he suddenly beats all the GMs and Ms at the Nationals.

Possible we have different definitions of "compete." If you mean win it all, Nationals Champion, World Shoot Winner, you might be largely right. If instead you mean show up and have fun, then a G17 and 3 mags, a holster, dual mag holder will do ya just fine. If yer a gunner, it can finish near the top of your local matches in both Production and Limited.

Back in the older days IF we had a course of fire which we thought was a little high (up to 20 rounds) we made sure that the it was as fair as possible. We institued at least one mandatory mag change. No section of targets within the entire course of fire ever had more than an 8 round count. What we didnt want is the first part of a stage to exceed the number of rounds and then a shooter having to reload half way through the first few targets before even going on the move to the next section. IN these matches, I saw a non-race gun shooter change magazines so many times. Once for each section of targets...plus he changed during the move so he got to the next high count section with a full magazine. ABSOLUTELY REDICULOUS!

Good stages are still this way. We put on matches where a Production, Limited-10, or Single Stack shooters can fair just fine. Movement without a reload is always a bit faster than movement with a reload. But, good shooters and good stage managers can cover that difference quite often. The winners at the local matches (like most) major matches are usually Open gunners, true enough. They are also often GMs with lots of exerience and mental toughness.

regardless of the plethora of divisions (open, production, limited, limited-10, single stack, etc) everything about USPSA/IPSC screams $3000 super spray and pray open race gun competition.

No, gentle friend, to me it screams "some of the most fun you can have with your clothes on." I kindly suggest you readjust your perspective. Shooting should be about finding your best performance. It doesn't have to be about beating all comers. Realistic expectations make for a more fun time.

You want match pressure? Shoot a modified El Presidente but onnly "A" zones count. So if all the competitors can hit the "A", then it becomes a matter of speed. Can't drop a shot and work half a second faster to win...everyone hits an A or you go home...instill the old 175 power factor so that the $3000 Super race guns have to shoot a decent load. This helps to even the playing field.

The super race guns aren't shooting 175?!? Maybe not in Limited, they're only about 170, I guess... But, them Open guns (Race Guns) are usually far exceeding 175 (so I've been told).

Regardless, the great part about this sport is it's versatility. If you want a modified El Presidente where only A zone hits count, throw up some hardcover on all B, C, and D zones! Done! I'd shoot it!

Currently if you want a respectable score on the El Prese you're hitting almost all As anyways. That is the simple truth on most of the Classifiers.

Personally I think it shouldn't be about all As anyways. I'd shoot Bullseye if it were. Instead it's about the balance- Speed, Accuracy, and Power. 165 PF is power enough. A sub 6 El Presidente with two or three C hits earning me a M class score says I can shoot. I can shoot fast, accurate, with power and draw and reload, too.

Maybe this sport isn't for you. And that's OK. It says nothing negative about you. Other shooting sports aren't my bag, and that says nothing negative about me.

I hope you either learn to appreciate this sport or find the right one for you.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Steven Cline

[Jim Norman]

I suppose I am thick. we regularly set up stages with high 20 to 32 rounds. Production, L-10 and SS shooters don't have a problem with them. Neither do Open and Limited, even our few Revo guys like them.

People need to realize that we run 6 simultaneous matches, not one big match, although most local clubs do publish the unofficial combined scores. Yes Open usually wins followed by Limited then it depends on who showed up. Limited does win, occasionally followed by Production and then Open. It all depends on who shows up.

If I wanted to shoot all 18 or fewer round courses, I would shoot that other sport. I do on occasion, but I like what we do better. More rounds, more movement, more reloads, more fun.

[Walküre]

How about 32 rounds where the positions are so close that more than a step and a half is passing a shooting position. High round count, tight shots, no room to run, it is all shoot, reload and shoot again. the entire stage is done in under 15 seconds, probably less. Accuracy due to tight shots, high speed reloads due to no room to move and lots of shots to keep the hosers happy. Even have movers thrown in for fun. There is little we can not do if we put our minds to it.

I like it! Sounds like a steel speed shoot! Now that would be fun!

As long as that's not all there is.

I don't think anybody's mentioned it yet, but what Gonzo seems to really be after are more standards-type COFs. I'm VERY against matches just filled with standards. I'm also VERY against matches that don't have any standards. A good match will have a bit of everything.

See, larger COFs don't just involve more shooting, moving, and reloading. They also require you to figure out how to best shoot the stage. *Stage breakdown* is yet another skill that is added to the mix in USPSA/IPSC - contrast this to some of the other disciplines where this is not much of a factor (anything where everybody has to run the same way). Those disciplines will be more purely focused on shooting. What makes IPSC & USPSA so great, IMO, is it's combination of everything - it's freestyle attitude.

A truly freestyle COF not only allows the shooter to do what he or she wants (in terms of engagement order, reload locations, etc), but also presents an open-ended shooting problem that actually has myriad valid solutions - solutions which produce nearly identical performances over the course (that is, the same hit factor).

Unfortunately, we don't see a whole lot of these courses, since they are hard to come up with.

I still vividly remember the last stage I shot at the 2010 Indiana Prod/SStk/Revo match. It was set up so there was no singular "obvious" way to run it for any division. I don't think any of us in the whole squad shot it the same way. Two people could approach the stage in _completely_ different ways and still end up right next to each other in the final scores. That is, there didn't exist any one "best" way to run the stage, unlike many of the stages we encounter more regularly. (I think you all know what I mean - there's usually a common way that people break down a given stage for a given division, with very little variation.)