Safe Area

[Singlestack]

I realized the other day that there is no rule requiring a shooter to face in a safe direction while handling a firearm while in a safe area.

The reason I noticed is, I had gone to a safe area to remove a undershirt since the day was warming up and I was hot. I had left my mags in my bag on the stage. I unholstered, took my belt off and removed my shirt and was in the process of putting my gear back on when I heard from the nearby bay "STOP!". Well this rattled me and I immediately looked around to insure I had left my loaded mags behind. Turns out it was a shooter who was starting in a position that a bystander didn't like and he was screaming from the peanut gallery which was very close to where I was standing. I was thinking, I gotta tell ima45dv8 about this clown, he'll get a good laugh about this since the yelling person was dead wrong with his opinion about the start position. I grabbed my pistol and turned to leave the safe area before I holstered it. I was horrified and looked around to see if anyone noticed and holstered very quickly. Then I thought, other then the obvious safety reasons, there is no rule preventing a shooter from doing this!

[Chris Keen]

I totally agree John.

Not only that but I've also pondered some of the other rules (or lack thereof) of the uspsa safe areas.

For example:

Can you sweep yourself, or muzzle yourself our someone else at a safe area without penalty?

Since your already allowed to handle your firearm without RO supervision, what if you drop your gun? Can you pick it up yourself? Or do you need an RO to do it?

[CZinSC]

Regarding a rule in the rulebook, I respectfully disagree with both of you:

2.4 Safety Areas

The host organization is responsible for the construction and placement of a sufficient

number of Safety Areas for the match. They should be conveniently placed

and easily identified with signs. Safety Areas should include a table with the safe

direction and boundaries clearly shown.

2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated

below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety

Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject

to match disqualification (see Rules 10.5.1 & 10.5.12).10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area

or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command

issued by, a Range Officer.

10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training

rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1.

The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a

Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on

their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor

does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the

Safety Area.

What I will agree with you on though, is just about every safe area I have seen doesn't "clearly" indicate the safe direction or the boundarys. Common sense tells you not to point your gun at other people, but they should definitely have boundarys clearly defined and direction.

[Singlestack]

Nope.

2.4.1 says nothing about 180.

My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction.

[Coach]

Are there problems that need addressed? I am not really in favor of making more rules. If something unsafe is happening bring it to the MD/RM attention and let them sort it out. I do agree sweeping someone else should not happen.

[Wild Gene]

Nope.

2.4.1 says nothing about 180.

My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction.

Isn't that relative? I mean that in the sense of "facing a safe direction". While down is down, down with your back to someone is safer than down while facing them? Oh geeze, playing "wordsmith" aren't we? Haha. But honestly, I don't mind if someone points their gun down when they are not facing me, but may get a bit nervous depending on the circumstances when they are facing me.

Just asking....

WG

[Chris Keen]

Right. What defines a "safe direction" ? 180? 190?

I think the "clearly shown" portion of rule 2.4 is simply stating that we need to know where a safe area begins and where it endd. Not clearly showing where the 180 begins and ends.

[markcic]

What happens when you have you pistol disassembled? Which parts can break the 180?

[Dan Hefta]

What happens when you have you pistol disassembled? Which parts can break the 180?

A disassembled gun is no longer a gun... it's just parts.

[Dan Hefta]

Use common sence and you will never get DQed at a safety table. Wouldn't you feel stupid?

[Skydiver]

What happens when you have you pistol disassembled? Which parts can break the 180?

A disassembled gun is no longer a gun... it's just parts.

Try telling that to the TSA.

Back on topic of safety areas, if there is no clearly marked boundary around a safety area, what is considered a reasonable distance from the the table that is usually marked as "Safety Area"? 6 ft? 10 ft?

[Sarge]

I have to admit, I love these rules discussions! You just never know what will come up next.

Good point by skydiver. Some places we shoot, the safe area is right along the midway. You can walk right by one with a loaded mag in your hand quite easily.

[lcs]

I have to admit, I love these rules discussions! You just never know what will come up next.

Good point by skydiver. Some places we shoot, the safe area is right along the midway. You can walk right by one with a loaded mag in your hand quite easily.

No sane RO or staff member is going to DQ someone for walking by a safe area with a loaded mag in their hand.

i think this discussion has passed common sense 180.

[Skydiver]

I have to admit, I love these rules discussions! You just never know what will come up next.

Good point by skydiver. Some places we shoot, the safe area is right along the midway. You can walk right by one with a loaded mag in your hand quite easily.

No sane RO or staff member is going to DQ someone for walking by a safe area with a loaded mag in their hand.

i think this discussion has passed common sense 180.

But would you DQ somebody loading magazines sitting on the grass 5 ft away from the table marked "Safety Area" while they wait for their significant other who is practicing draws?

I didn't DQ her, but I did suggest she move further away since there were no clear boundaries and it would be better if there were no questions.

[Sarge]

I have to admit, I love these rules discussions! You just never know what will come up next.

Good point by skydiver. Some places we shoot, the safe area is right along the midway. You can walk right by one with a loaded mag in your hand quite easily.

No sane RO or staff member is going to DQ someone for walking by a safe area with a loaded mag in their hand.

i think this discussion has passed common sense 180.

Larry, I'm not saying they or I or you would. It was just to point out that there generally are not posted bounderies.

[glefos]

Nope.

2.4.1 says nothing about 180.

My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction.

My opinion is you got away with one. You know better or your first instinct wouldn't have been to look around to see who saw you. Besides, I don't think "grabbing your pistol and turning to leave" falls within activities listed under 2.4.1.1-.4.

When you turned away from the table not doing 2.4.1.1-.4 with gun in hand (regardless of barrel direction), you were DQ'able.

[sperman]

Nope.

2.4.1 says nothing about 180.

My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction.

Down isn't a safe direction if you draw your pistol while facing uprange.

[Singlestack]

Nope.

2.4.1 says nothing about 180.

My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction.

My opinion is you got away with one. You know better or your first instinct wouldn't have been to look around to see who saw you. Besides, I don't think "grabbing your pistol and turning to leave" falls within activities listed under 2.4.1.1-.4.

When you turned away from the table not doing 2.4.1.1-.4 with gun in hand (regardless of barrel direction), you were DQ'able.

That's why I was horrified. I admit to being distracted. I don't think DQ'able though.

Nope.

2.4.1 says nothing about 180.

My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction.

Down isn't a safe direction if you draw your pistol while facing uprange.

Ahhh, but during the COF we have a 180 rule.

[JakeMartens]

I say we get RO's for the safe tables

[Singlestack]

I say we get RO's for the safe tables

Now that's a good idea.

[bbbean]

I say we get RO's for the safe tables

"Make Unready"

"Standby"

"If you are finished, remain clear and drop hammer"

"Safe area is clear."

Just for the record, if we get carried away and start assigning ROs to the porta-johns, I'm letting my certification lapse!

Edited March 29, 2011 by bbbean

[JAFO]

I don't really think a clarification in the rules is necessary.

I've mostly seen people practice draws or static (ie, not moving) dryfiring, bagging or unbagging a gun, or performing maintenance. Nothing that would come close to violating the gun being "pointed in a safe direction". I could see it as a possibility when one shooter wants to show another something on their gun. Then the gun is being handled, turned over, cycled, etc. But I'd like to think that most people, especially experienced shooters, will continue to follow the four rules at the safe table to eliminate sweeping of themselves and others. We're ultimately all responsible for safety, so if you see someone doing something potentially unsafe, address it. Either directly to the shooter or to the RO/MD.

[JAFO]

Just for the record, if we get carried away and start assigning ROs to the porta-johns, I'm letting my certification lapse!

Yeah, but think how much shorter the lines will be once they implement the par time!

[hankfan79]

Just for the record, if we get carried away and start assigning ROs to the porta-johns, I'm letting my certification lapse!

Yeah, but think how much shorter the lines will be once they implement the par time!

There goes the "3 shake" rule..lol

[sperman]

Since your already allowed to handle your firearm without RO supervision, what if you drop your gun? Can you pick it up yourself? Or do you need an RO to do it?

10.5.14 Retrieving a dropped handgun. Dropped handguns must always be retrieved by a Range Officer who will, after checking and/or clearing the handgun, place it directly into the competitor’s gun case, gun bag or holster. Dropping an unloaded handgun or causing it to fall outside of a course of fire is not an infraction, however, a competitor who retrieves a dropped handgun will receive a match disqualification.