Electronic Scoring System

[bayouman]

Our local club is considering going with an electronic scoring system. As far as I know the only one being used and available for USPSA shooting is the Palm system. We are reluctant to invest in a bunch of Palms given that they are not made anymore and that there may another system in the wings - although not too sure about that since the world has gone with smart phones.

Anyone know of another system in the works to replace the Palm?

Thanks

[pjb45]

We use the Palm system at our club. Pretty slick deal. Ping or call the guy who built it. He is a good guy. Ping me and I will get in touch with him if you can not find or he has not logged on in a while.

[Graham Smith]

I'm looking at the same thing. I just found a Palm m500 on ebay to play with and I understand that the fellow that sells the StageScore also has refurbished units available preloaded for about $40.

FWIW, it's not the scoring software itself that is proving to be the biggest stumbling block, it's that we don't do pre-registration which is pretty much a must for these.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Graham Smith

[maineshootah]

FWIW, it's not the scoring software itself that is proving to be the biggest stumbling block, it's that we don't do pre-registration which is pretty much a must for these.

That isn't entirely true. We do not pre-register for the matches (other than 30 min before we start) and use the palms. It works fine.

The person doing all the palm transfer(s) of data is busy in that 30 min, however, the benefit of the scores being posted 10 min after the last shot is fired is worth it.

We are a small club with 20-25 per match, and it has saved us HOURS of time. Well worth it.

[Jim Norman]

I'll agree that with 20-25 shooters loading the registration into the Palm right before the match is OK, with 60-80 shooters that becomes a bit more harrowing. We started doing pre-registration for our matches shortly after we started using the Palms. We tried allowing people to squad, but that was a failure. Pre-Reg however is great. We use a program called FormStack, very inexpensive. You register for our match, you get an acknowledgment of what you signed up for, as well as a map to the range and new shooter info. We get all your info in an easily sorted format making loading the Palms simple. EzWinScore is the part that slows it all down. You have to point and click for each shooter and information input into Ez does not ALL stay in the DB, to keep divisions you have to change screens.

The Palms are definitely the way to go. We like StageScore for its simplicity as well as the cost and support.

Jim

[Graham Smith]

The Palms are definitely the way to go. We like StageScore for its simplicity as well as the cost and support.

After having to deal with scoring my first match (with 70 competitors) I can only think that any problems with PalmScore have to pale in comparison. This is definitely on my short list of things to look into.

[Nemo]

We at SEPSA have been using Palm PDAs and StageScore for more than 2 years and it has work great for us. We do pre-registration through our website and on match morning whoever is no pre-registered is assigned a shooter number. After the match, our match director enters the shooters info.

I'm not sure how it would work at a big match level but for club matches it is the way to go.

NOTE TO STAGESCORE DEVELOPERS: The era of the palm is gone, are we looking at IPods, bluetooth, the Icloud, etc...?

[Jim Norman]

I just want to clarify my earlier post. There are a few mentions herein that seem to point towards a negative attitude with respect to electronic scoring. All I can say is if you aren't doing the pre and post match stats work, you really don't have a basis to comment. I believe firmly that there will be several additional scoring systems coming online in the near future. Which one or ones will be the eventual top dog(s) I don't know. I do know that paper scoring for a match of any real size and for any match that doesn't have a dedicated stats person that is running stats during the match is an archaic system. Electronic scoring eliminates so many problems. Yes there is the current requirement that at matches above a L1 that you be given a paper record of your scores at the stage. This I believe will also go the way of the dodo in the foreseeable future.

[Skydiver]

Being one of those stats people, I'd love for my club to change over to electronic scoring so that I only need to worry about prepping the competitor lists, and then later uploading the scores, classifiers, and paying for the classifier. Additionally, it'll let me enjoy the match instead of shooting through so that I can start entering scores as soon as possible.

As I posted above with my question about wet weather, I live in a state where wet weather is part for the course. Seeing moisture inside the face of the timer is not uncommon. It looks like those dry bags would be a good solution.

Maybe it's because we've tolerated it, but more often than not, 2-3 shooters usually arrive at our matches about 10-15 minutes after the first shot has been fired. From what I've read, the Palm scoring system accounts for this by having "walk on" slots available. At the end of the match, a name is associated with with "walk-on 2". Is the same true for the other electronic scoring systems?

Assuming the iPhone/iPad/Android path where somebody brings their own device to the range. If the owner gets DQ'd, and they would rather go home rather than stay for the rest of the day, is there a live transfer feature to pass off the current data? Or will a club have to purchase the devices?

And lastly, the matter of security... How does one ensure that the copy of the software that is running on a somebody's personal device is the official version of the software, and not a hacked copy? If the stats office just accepts the data from the device without some kind of authentication, the scores seen and "signed" by the shooter at the stage, may not be the same score transmitted to the stats office. (This is one of the concerns Rob Boudrie and I had when we were considering going open source for a scoring program.)

[Chills1994]

That would be sweet if there was a touch screen display of sorts that accepted a magnetic striped USPSA membership card. Shooters walk into the stats shack, swipe their card, the display lights up with "Are you John Doe?" and then a box for yes and another box for no. The shooter presses yes then it asks "what division are you shooting today?" then boxes you touch on the screen for open limited etc. Then it asks what power factor you're shooting. Then it asks you what squad you want to be in. Then there are three or four or more iPads marked squad 1 squad 3 etc connected to the "mother" via wifi that get just the squad members data and "scoresheets". So basically like a Red Box or an ATM, but for USPSA.

Getting back way more on topic....

I don't want to ever walk off a stage or leave a match without first receiving a paper copy of my scores.

[TMC]

Checkout Practiscore We used it at the Junior Camp and it worked great. We used it on Apple devices, iPhones, iPads and iPod touch.

[Graham Smith]

With the season done save for one match, I've had quite a bit of time to think about this. Startup costs aside, I think that this is something that will gain popularity with all clubs in the not too distant future. Here are a few comments that I think are worth considering based on my experiences with a local club and really only pertain to L1 matches.

The job of running a timer falls to a relatively small number of fairly experienced people. But a lot of people are pressed into service keeping score, some more experienced than others. Getting these people trained to run any kind of electronic scoring software is going to take some pre-planning and cooperation.

As much as I like the idea of electronic scoring, it will slow things down until people get used to it and there will likely be mistakes which slow things down even more. That will have to be accounted for in planning.

I'm rather reluctant to completely abandon paper scoring. It may be that the optimal procedure, at first, will be to have one person keep score on paper, then pass that to a second person who will enter it into the electronic scoring system while the next person is shooting. That means that no matter what, there will be a paper copy to fall back on. The big downside to that someone may get sloppy with the electronics and fail to enter a score or make a mistake if they are rushed in which case the stats person (me) will end up having to check things if there are any questions.

IOW, right now, I have more questions than answers. But the potential to greatly reduce my workload is a pretty darn good incentive to pursue this next year.

[herky]

Although I believe that the Palm scoring system is on the way out, some kind of electronic system will replace it in the near future. At the clubs in my area that use Palm, it works very well. Training up people to score is very straight forward and we always have new people who are interested in learning how to use the system. It takes some time up front to ready the system for use, but what I hear from the data entry at the end, it is a real time saver. With requirement of a paper copy at the bigger matches, right now Palm seems to be best used at the L-1 matches.

[jdphotoguy]

The PractiScore sounds interesting, but the web site is devoid of information on who to contact for a Beta copy to test at our club. Anyone have a contact?

[ziebart]

itunes.apple.com/us/app/practiscore/id496711166?mt=8&ign-mpt=uo%3D4

I can't seem to make the link hot.

Edited January 31, 2012 by ziebart

[wgnoyes]

I can. http://goo.gl/FwWFr

Damn. This may be what we've all been waiting for! Manual available at http://practiscore.com/files/PractiScoreManual.pdf

Edited January 31, 2012 by wgnoyes

[edwin garcia]

Like!

[wgnoyes]

AND ITS FREE!! Man, we all need to really grovel at the feet of their sponsors. Maybe we can finally tell that australian guy where to take his $350+ per device ASS-Score/USS-Score.

[moverfive]

We have been using Palms now for years in TN - including many Level II matches.

For local matches, the upfront registration was the initial hump we have to overcome at NTPS, primarily because of how squadding is done in EZWin versus how our matches operate. Combine that with the fact that it was nothing for us to have 70 - 100 scores, the complexity of getting the matches started appeared quite high.

We solved all of the obvious problems by writing a separate Excel file that is actually used to sync up the Palms and would also link up with the Palm Registration export from EZWin. The EZWin step handled by creating a 'New Match' file to include everyone that might shoot in the match, including each division they might shoot. In other words, our EZWin New Match had like 700+ entries. This method basically pre-regisered 95% of the shooters (with the remaining 5% being first-timers). And once registered for a division, your shooter number for that division remains constant in every subsequent match you shoot. This required some dedicated upfront work......but it was materially only one-time work.

That EZWin Registration would be imported into the Palm Excel file (or even entered into the Excel first and the update EZWin later). To establish squads, I would simply enter the associated shooter number into the squad of choice and their name/division would auto-populate. Using this method allowed us to easily view who was in each squad and to ensure we had the proper "experience" in each to manage the squad. Once confirmed, hit another macro button and ONLY the present shooters would be pushed to the Palms. I would say that registration was extended by about 15 minutes over pure paper.....but saved HOURS of work after the match.

That is the method we have been using for over 5 years and it has been wonderful for us.

As for Level II matches, we use EZWin in the 'normal' manner as others do with Palms. And yes, we also use paper in scoring. We use the exact same paper size typically seen at Level II and above matches......the difference is that we write the summary information from the Palm to the paper. So you will see your time, number of A's, B's, C's, D's, M's, NS', Procedures, and then hit factor......all on a big sheet of paper instead of that thin pocket lint some matches have. While the information is being written on the scoresheet, the shooter can verify the scores directly from the Palm before they sign.

From my many discussions, the folks that have problems with Palm scoring software is because they had a single bad experience. And that bad experience is usually from poor implementation and pre-work on the host club's part, and in most cases they had literally just started using Palms. I can remember during one Nationals watching the RO's score with Palms, you would have thought they had just seen the Palm scoring for the first time that morning. The time to score and the resulting confidence of getting an accurate was way too long and way too low. I know I wouldn't have looked favorably on Palms if that were my first experience in seeing them in action. Whereas if you come to one of our matches, our RO's have been using the Palms for years and will probably have the score done BEFORE you show clear. And to be honest, I have someone scoring with the Palms after one or two stages of demonstration......give them a few matches, and it is no problem afterwards.

If anyone would like a copy of the Excel file we wrote/modified, let me know and I can forward it to you.

[wgnoyes]

... I can remember during one Nationals watching the RO's score with Palms, you would have thought they had just seen the Palm scoring for the first time that morning. ...

They probably had only just been introduced to it! That was 2 or 3 years ago, and the Chief Stats Officer said never again, and that was the end of Palms at the nationals. Maybe PractiScore can bring it back; they've actually worked with USPSA on this and several state matches have already been scored with it.

[ziebart]

One of my problems with the palms is the delay between clicking the points and when it shows up on the screen. Because of the delay it is easy for new users to click to many times.

[CHA-LEE]

The delay of the click verses data population on the palm is a limitation of the palm its self, not the software. If you get decent palms, such as the Tungsten C model, the clicking and data population is instant. All of the USPSA clubs along the front range have settled on using Palm Scoring leveraging the Stage Score software and the Tungsten C palm pilots. These have worked very well for us for multiple years. Since all of the clubs use the exact same palm pilot model the learning curve is really quick when shooters go from club to club.

[CHA-LEE]

Thinking ahead, I was wondering if anyone has used the new CED 7000 Pro shot timer for club match score keeping as well. The CED 7000 Pro has a "Match Mode" which enables you to create a match and record scores for multiple shooters. I am not sure if this feature is intended as a true solution for running club matches or simply a practice aid when shooting with multiple friends. Does anyone have more information on this?

[DocMedic]

Thinking ahead, I was wondering if anyone has used the new CED 7000 Pro shot timer for club match score keeping as well. The CED 7000 Pro has a "Match Mode" which enables you to create a match and record scores for multiple shooters. I am not sure if this feature is intended as a true solution for running club matches or simply a practice aid when shooting with multiple friends. Does anyone have more information on this?

I've been thinking of getting one for personal use, but yea according to the website its a full functioning match computer, but the couple problems with it are, its not backwards compatible with EZwinScore as it uses WinMSS, so data entry is gonna be a PITA. There's no "B" scoring button. And each unit cost $215 bucks.

Edit: looks like they talk about that very issue about the EZwinScore here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=137393

Edited February 10, 2012 by DocMedic

[Ed Deegan]

As part of the team (wife and husband) that did (we have done it for 2 years and are retiring) stats for a club that had 100 shooters (90-120) each month, the following is offered of our methodology:

1. We had pre-registration on the club website, so shooter information was downloaded into excel spreadsheet.

2. 1 of us set up (stats wise) the match in 1 hour, including entering shooters. Matches were 6 - 7 stages.

3. After the match and the collection of scoresheets, we would organize the scoresheets in the car during the drive home.

4. With 100 shooters, working as a team, scores were done and posted within 2 hours of arriving home. Then we could take showers, eat, whatever.

100 shooters, 5.5 manhours per month doing it the "old school" way. Part of that was an accounting provided to the club rep of the financials of the match.

With that many shooters, it would be difficult to populate squads on a palm in the 5-10 minutes you have for the shooter safety brief and also deal with the last minute walkups and tardy arrivals and still get to your first stage in a timely fashion.

We did not want to switch to palms because of what we perceived to be the extra work during setup, maintenance, etc. We felt that our systemology was as efficient as we could make it. Besides we wanted to shoot the match.