Clarification of rules 8.5.2 and 8.5.2.1

[Skydiver]

Yeah, sorry about the thread drift flack jacket. I try to make a point of starting a new thread, but didn't this time.

[flack jacket]

All good brother! I can see how each shooters' routine can possibly break the rules. Being NROI certified definitely makes sense, especially if we are running an IPSC club.

[SDM]

3. A production or single stack shooter has a magazine in their front pocket, but never uses it throughout the COF. The rules state they cannot be forward of the hip bone during the COF, nothing in the rules states whether they are used or not, so someone could call them on it.

I've likely been guilty of this in every match I've shot. However, I'm not sure that front pockets are always in front of the hip bone. It may depend on how your pants are made.

[ChuckS]

JA:

1. At "Make Ready", a Production shooter pulls a mag with 11 rounds from their front pocket and inserts it into gun and holsters. No problem.

2. At "Make Ready", an Open, Limited, Revolver shooter pulls out their first magazine/speed loader from a shirt breast pocket, loads, and holsters. These division can have them anywhere, there is no restrictions as to location of equipment as in Production and single stack.

But these will:

3. A production or single stack shooter has a magazine in their front pocket, but never uses it throughout the COF. The rules state they cannot be forward of the hip bone during the COF, nothing in the rules states whether they are used or not, so someone could call them on it.

4. At unload and show clear, a Production or Single Stack shooter places the magazine they just ejected from the gun into their front pocket. The command "Range is clear" ends the COF, so unload and show clear is still during the COF and falls into the same possibility of having the equipment in the wrong place.

Your questions and concerns are valid, the best way until there is arule change (not that there will be), is for the two divisions, Production and Single Stack, is not to have equipment forward of the hip bone, whether you use it or not.

In regards to the strict interpretation of the rules, in case 1, the shooter would be in violation of division rules if the mag is in the front pocket after the words "Make Ready" are spoken since that signifies the start of the COF.

Just saying....

Chuck

[sperman]

Did you read all of post #20? JA explains why that is not the case.

[ChuckS]

Did you read all of post #20? JA explains why that is not the case.

Now I did

Well, being of simple mind, I have decided that if the legality of use of a certain pocket can depend on where in the process of COF execution one is , it is best to never use that pocket. YMMV

Edited February 23, 2011 by ChuckS

[Sarge]

In regards to the strict interpretation of the rules, in case 1, the shooter would be in violation of division rules if the mag is in the front pocket after the words "Make Ready" are spoken since that signifies the start of the COF.

Just saying....

Chuck

Not true. 5.2.4 specifically states During the course of fire, after the start signal,.....................

[Gary Stevens]

Hey Sarge, COF officially starts on Make Ready and officially ends of Range is Clear. The start signal is a non-issue.

Gary

[JAFO]

Sarge isn't saying that's when the CoF starts, he's pointing out that 5.2.4. specifically states "...after the start signal..."

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

[Sarge]

YES, What JAFO said. As far as I have been able to determine this is the only place in the rule book that the standard definition of course of fire is altered.

[whitedog]

From my limited knowledge, I agree with Sarge.

[Nik Habicht]

Sarge isn't saying that's when the CoF starts, he's pointing out that 5.2.4. specifically states "...after the start signal..."

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

You guys really need to look at 6.2.5.1 also.....

6.2.5.1. is the rule cited for the move to Open Division -- and it clearly states "during the course of fire." (For that matter, 5.2.4 references both Appendix D, Item 12 [which redirects to Appendix E3] and 6.2.5.1.

Once you read them all, it's clearly risky for a competitor to pull a mag out of the front pocket at Make Ready -- and Chuck's advice above is spot on from a "best practices" perspective....

It's theoretically possible for someone to muddy the waters of an arbitration appeal by citing 5.2.4, but as a competitor I wouldn't want to hang my match finish on that....

[Skydiver]

Additionally, why go through the stress of getting moved to open, arbitration appeals and all that if you can at all avoid it? Just come to the line with the mag in hand, or tucked in the small of your waist.

[Gary Stevens]

Additionally, why go through the stress of getting moved to open, arbitration appeals and all that if you can at all avoid it? Just come to the line with the mag in hand, or tucked in the small of your waist.

And hip pockets are good also

[Strick]

Sarge isn't saying that's when the CoF starts, he's pointing out that 5.2.4. specifically states "...after the start signal..."

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

You guys really need to look at 6.2.5.1 also.....

6.2.5.1. is the rule cited for the move to Open Division -- and it clearly states "during the course of fire." (For that matter, 5.2.4 references both Appendix D, Item 12 [which redirects to Appendix E3] and 6.2.5.1.

Once you read them all, it's clearly risky for a competitor to pull a mag out of the front pocket at Make Ready -- and Chuck's advice above is spot on from a "best practices" perspective....

It's theoretically possible for someone to muddy the waters of an arbitration appeal by citing 5.2.4, but as a competitor I wouldn't want to hang my match finish on that....

6.2.5.1 is not relevant to the issue since 5.2.4 clearly states "after the signal". According to 5.2.4 it doesn't make a difference where anything is until that buzzer goes off.

I also gotta say, moving a SSTK or Prod shooter to open because they pulled their barney mag out of a pocket at MR or put their mag in a pocket when they are unloading is a just a little on the ridiculous side.........IMO of course.

[Nik Habicht]

Sarge isn't saying that's when the CoF starts, he's pointing out that 5.2.4. specifically states "...after the start signal..."

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

You guys really need to look at 6.2.5.1 also.....

6.2.5.1. is the rule cited for the move to Open Division -- and it clearly states "during the course of fire." (For that matter, 5.2.4 references both Appendix D, Item 12 [which redirects to Appendix E3] and 6.2.5.1.

Once you read them all, it's clearly risky for a competitor to pull a mag out of the front pocket at Make Ready -- and Chuck's advice above is spot on from a "best practices" perspective....

It's theoretically possible for someone to muddy the waters of an arbitration appeal by citing 5.2.4, but as a competitor I wouldn't want to hang my match finish on that....

6.2.5.1 is not relevant to the issue since 5.2.4 clearly states "after the signal". According to 5.2.4 it doesn't make a difference where anything is until that buzzer goes off.

I also gotta say, moving a SSTK or Prod shooter to open because they pulled their barney mag out of a pocket at MR or put their mag in a pocket when they are unloading is a just a little on the ridiculous side.........IMO of course.

I think you might not be reading the complete rules in aggregate.....

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

So the first sentence tells us that after the start signal spare ammunition should be carried on the belt in mag pouches/moonclip holders. The second sentence -- which ignores the after the start signal language, for starters -- provides for carrying additional magazines/loading devices in pockets providing that a couple of conditions are met, namely:

1. It's not prohibited by the stage description and

2. It doesn't violate division requirements and rule 6.2.5.1.

Now, Appendix D, Item 12 for Production Division reads:

12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment (revolver speedloaders.moon clips are exempt): Yes, see Appendix E3

and for Singlestack it reads:

12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment: Yes, see Appendix E3

Appendix E3 shows us a diagram of equipment behind the hip bones.

Now let's look at the last piece -- rule 6.2.5.1:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

And there's the rub -- 6.2.5.1, which is the applicable rule for folks who fail to comply with division requirements is specific about "during the course of fire." The second sentence of 5.2.4 is non-specific, about whether it applies "after the start signal" or "during the course of fire."

Now, I'm o.k. with not calling it that way, if on a loaded gun start a competitor pulls a barney mag, or the initial mag to start the stage with out of a front pocket, as long as they don't have a mag in a front pocket after the start signal. If another RO called it though, it might be tough to get a CRO/RM or arb panel to agree....

Prudence would dictate not having mags in your front pocket, if you're competing in SS or Production....

[SDM]

It'd take a real piece of work RO to bump somebody to open because they pull their barney mag out of a front pocket. Probably the type that kicks the dog when he gets home from work.

[Sarge]

Oh well. I read it totally different. After the start signal the mags have to be in pouches on the belt. Before the start signal they can be anywhere you want. I would not penalize a shooter for it and I for one would side with the shooter if arb'd.

[whitedog]

5.2.4. Says after start signal. Why is this convoluted? It seems straight forward. Before beep, whatever. After beep, behind hip bones. What am I missing?????

[Fireant]

I think we need to have a company make some production/single stack specific pants now And why dog the RO that might bump a shooter for this. A rule is a rule no matter how small we might think it is. If you don't like the rule, work on having it changed. I don't remember anything in the book saying I get to pick which rules I enforce.

[JAFO]

And why dog the RO that might bump a shooter for this. A rule is a rule no matter how small we might think it is. If you don't like the rule, work on having it changed. I don't remember anything in the book saying I get to pick which rules I enforce.

Because this is a case where a rule that was intended to prevent a competitive advantage has a hole in it where it would be applied to a shooter at a point where their run hasn't started yet. I don't think (most) people would disagree with an RO who bumped a SS/Prod shooter who had a mag forward of the hip bone after their run was started. But where's the advantage if I go to the line with my 11-rd mag in a front pocket and proceed to load it in the gun (with all other ammo in appropriate positions)? No shots have been fired and the clock isn't running.

I guess you're right in that it's something that we could work to change, but do you really want a ruleboook packed with exceptions for every conceivable permutation of events? I'd prefer RO's instilled with some common sense in this case.

[twodownzero]

How is this different from a production division competitor who loads 11 rounds in his first mag on an unloaded gun start, loads the gun with it, fires nine rounds, reloads, and is moved to open when the RO notices the remaining round in the magazine? (Real life situation -- a friend of mine finished the area match competing in open.) Was that extra round an advantage? It doesn't matter, it's mere presence made the competitor non-compliant with division requirements, and triggered the move to Open under 6.2.5.1.

Good call by that RO! I always count rounds when I'm on the clipboard and someone is shooting Production, but that's pretty amazing that he noticed just one additional round in the magazine.

Edited February 25, 2011 by twodownzero

[Skydiver]

At least in USPSA, we get to use pockets... in the current IPSC rules, here is how it reads.

5.2.4. Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices should be carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose, to reduce the risk of loss during a course of fire.

5.2.4.1. For table starts or similar, after the Start Signal, the competitor may carry those items anywhere on their person, and this will not be treated as contravention of Divisional rules.

Although IPSC is a little more forgiving before getting bumped to Open. The RO at least has to direct the shooter to fix the equipment placement first rather than automatically being bumped.

Appendix D4. Special conditions:

18. Neither the handgun, nor any of its attachments, nor the holster, nor any allied equipment, can extend forward of the line illustrated in Appendix F3. Any such items a Range Officer deems not to be in compliance must be safely and promptly adjusted, failing which Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply.

Hmmm... If we want the rule changed for USPSA, we can probably point to the IPSC verbiage in the Appendix as a model. Talk to or email your Area Directors to let them know how you feel.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Skydiver

[twodownzero]

I'm starting to think that the magazine capacity limit should be changed to "11 rounds in the gun at any one time, including the chamber" rather than ten rounds in a magazine.

This would eliminate the bump to open for someone who fails to chamber a round with their 11 round magazine at the MR command, and eliminate the problem for unloaded starts where people forget to take that extra round out of their first mag.

I wonder what people would think. Personally, I don't think it's all that equitable to bump someone to open in that circumstance. The former offers no competitive advantage at all (click on first trigger pull, tap, rack, bang), while the second is a mere technicality.

Competitors are personally responsible for complying with the rules in their division, but it still seems to me that the 'ten rounds in a magazine' could be changed to 'eleven rounds in the gun' without any monumental change in the game, and we could close the unfortunate bump to open for people who screw up.

In the alternative, we could just change the rule to 'ten rounds in the gun,' period, because our game has to be 8 round neutral anyway. That might even be the best answer to this whole thing, although it would result in those used to "shoot ten, reload" having to change their game unless they liked slide lock reloads.

Just some food for thought.

[aztecdriver]

And why dog the RO that might bump a shooter for this. A rule is a rule no matter how small we might think it is. If you don't like the rule, work on having it changed. I don't remember anything in the book saying I get to pick which rules I enforce.

Because this is a case where a rule that was intended to prevent a competitive advantage has a hole in it where it would be applied to a shooter at a point where their run hasn't started yet. I don't think (most) people would disagree with an RO who bumped a SS/Prod shooter who had a mag forward of the hip bone after their run was started. But where's the advantage if I go to the line with my 11-rd mag in a front pocket and proceed to load it in the gun (with all other ammo in appropriate positions)? No shots have been fired and the clock isn't running.

This sounds like clarification of THIS needs to occur. I don't see that anyone is advocating bumping a prod/SS competitor to open for coming to the line with a mag in the front pocket or said mag having 11 rounds in it. I believe that THIS refers to bumping a competitor who 1) after loading sticks a LOADED magazine back into a front pocket and receives the start signal or 2) the competitor at unload and show clear, removes a loaded magazine and places it into a front pocket.

1) we know and understand. 2) seems trite, but think about this - what is different about the competitor state at unload and show clear? - nothing. It's the same state as it was at the start signal - they are free to engage targets. The state of the competitor does not change until "If Clear, Hammer down, holster" is given. Will someone actually continue a course after after that much time of unloading? Most likely not, but if you allow mags in front of the hipbone then, you allow them during the entire course of fire - so I could very easily have an extra empty mag pouch up front and use it for one of those "all mags on the table" courses, jam one there instead, or in my shirt pocket after the start signal.

As I said, bumping someone to open after 2) sounds trite - but it's actually consistent with a very sane rule -- the state of the competitor in the COF has not changed just because IFULSC has been given.

At least in USPSA, we get to use pockets... in the current IPSC rules, here is how it reads.

5.2.4. Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices should be carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose, to reduce the risk of loss during a course of fire.

5.2.4.1. For table starts or similar, after the Start Signal, the competitor may carry those items anywhere on their person, and this will not be treated as contravention of Divisional rules.

And, if I'm not mistaken, this was a recently updated USPSA rule. Note the "should" - it doesn't say "Must".

Although IPSC is a little more forgiving before getting bumped to Open. The RO at least has to direct the shooter to fix the equipment placement first rather than automatically being bumped.

Appendix D4. Special conditions:

18. Neither the handgun, nor any of its attachments, nor the holster, nor any allied equipment, can extend forward of the line illustrated in Appendix F3. Any such items a Range Officer deems not to be in compliance must be safely and promptly adjusted, failing which Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply.

Hmmm... If we want the rule changed for USPSA, we can probably point to the IPSC verbiage in the Appendix as a model. Talk to or email your Area Directors to let them know how you feel.

And pointing to how IPSC does it has worked well in the past? Outside of newbies, the hipbone thing is a relatively easy notion. If you come up out of compliance on it, you should know the rules. Allowing the correction part invites people to break it until caught and then they fix it with no penalty. I'm apt to leave it be.

Edited February 25, 2011 by aztecdriver