Clarification of rules 8.5.2 and 8.5.2.1

[KyroWebs]

Sorry Tim, but I couldn't disagree more about the problem with unloaded starts when someone "forgets" to take the extra round out. If one extra round isn't that big of a deal, why do so many limited and open shooters go through so much trouble to get one more extra round in the magazine?

EDIT: Not being disrespectful, just don't agree

Edited February 25, 2011 by KyroWebs

[aztecdriver]

I'm starting to think that the magazine capacity limit should be changed to "11 rounds in the gun at any one time, including the chamber" rather than ten rounds in a magazine.

This would eliminate the bump to open for someone who fails to chamber a round with their 11 round magazine at the MR command, and eliminate the problem for unloaded starts where people forget to take that extra round out of their first mag.

I wonder what people would think. Personally, I don't think it's all that equitable to bump someone to open in that circumstance. The former offers no competitive advantage at all (click on first trigger pull, tap, rack, bang), while the second is a mere technicality.

Competitors are personally responsible for complying with the rules in their division, but it still seems to me that the 'ten rounds in a magazine' could be changed to 'eleven rounds in the gun' without any monumental change in the game, and we could close the unfortunate bump to open for people who screw up.

In the alternative, we could just change the rule to 'ten rounds in the gun,' period, because our game has to be 8 round neutral anyway. That might even be the best answer to this whole thing, although it would result in those used to "shoot ten, reload" having to change their game unless they liked slide lock reloads.

Just some food for thought.

Or they could just load 10 and strip one off their last mag for loaded starts. Then we don't have to change any rules then worry about other ways for ROs to figure out if they are in compliance.

[JAFO]

And why dog the RO that might bump a shooter for this. A rule is a rule no matter how small we might think it is. If you don't like the rule, work on having it changed. I don't remember anything in the book saying I get to pick which rules I enforce.

Because this is a case where a rule that was intended to prevent a competitive advantage has a hole in it where it would be applied to a shooter at a point where their run hasn't started yet. I don't think (most) people would disagree with an RO who bumped a SS/Prod shooter who had a mag forward of the hip bone after their run was started. But where's the advantage if I go to the line with my 11-rd mag in a front pocket and proceed to load it in the gun (with all other ammo in appropriate positions)? No shots have been fired and the clock isn't running.

This sounds like clarification of THIS needs to occur.

I was following the course of the thread which had turned to whether the mag in the front pocket is illegal at the beginning of the CoF (which is "Make Ready") or at the start signal as referred to in 5.2.4.. That was the this I was referring to...then.

[Skydiver]

And why dog the RO that might bump a shooter for this. A rule is a rule no matter how small we might think it is. If you don't like the rule, work on having it changed. I don't remember anything in the book saying I get to pick which rules I enforce.

Because this is a case where a rule that was intended to prevent a competitive advantage has a hole in it where it would be applied to a shooter at a point where their run hasn't started yet. I don't think (most) people would disagree with an RO who bumped a SS/Prod shooter who had a mag forward of the hip bone after their run was started. But where's the advantage if I go to the line with my 11-rd mag in a front pocket and proceed to load it in the gun (with all other ammo in appropriate positions)? No shots have been fired and the clock isn't running.

This sounds like clarification of THIS needs to occur.

I was following the course of the thread which had turned to whether the mag in the front pocket is illegal at the beginning of the CoF (which is "Make Ready") or at the start signal as referred to in 5.2.4.. That was the this I was referring to...then.

According to JA, no bump to open for pulling the 11 round magazine from the front pocket for a Production shooter at Make Ready. Yeah, it would be good if JA wrote in a future clarification what he replied to me in his opinions in post #20. ( http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123213&view=findpost&p=1396632 )

[mhs]

[/b]

JA:

1. At "Make Ready", a Production shooter pulls a mag with 11 rounds from their front pocket and inserts it into gun and holsters. No problem.

3. A production or single stack shooter has a magazine in their front pocket, but never uses it throughout the COF. The rules state they cannot be forward of the hip bone during the COF, nothing in the rules states whether they are used or not, so someone could call them on it.

These are contradictory.

[Sarge]

Ever get the feeling we could all get together in a room and read this out loud and everyone of us would be like, "Oh now I get it!"

[aztecdriver]

I was following the course of the thread which had turned to whether the mag in the front pocket is illegal at the beginning of the CoF (which is "Make Ready") or at the start signal as referred to in 5.2.4.. That was the this I was referring to...then.

What Skydiver says in the next posting. John stated that it is fine to load a charge mag from your front pockets. And I agree.

[/b]

JA:

1. At "Make Ready", a Production shooter pulls a mag with 11 rounds from their front pocket and inserts it into gun and holsters. No problem.

3. A production or single stack shooter has a magazine in their front pocket, but never uses it throughout the COF. The rules state they cannot be forward of the hip bone during the COF, nothing in the rules states whether they are used or not, so someone could call them on it.

These are contradictory.

No - they are not. Read the rule:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

I actually don't think this can be clearer. Buzzer goes off - if there is a loaded mag on your person in front of your hipbones - welcome to open, including, up until RANGE IS CLEAR, the close of the COF. Whether the mag is used or not.

Ever get the feeling we could all get together in a room and read this out loud and everyone of us would be like, "Oh now I get it!"

Yes - which is why quoting and restating - while eating up tons of space on a page, is critical.

[mhs]

[/b]

JA:

1. At "Make Ready", a Production shooter pulls a mag with 11 rounds from their front pocket and inserts it into gun and holsters. No problem.

3. A production or single stack shooter has a magazine in their front pocket, but never uses it throughout the COF. The rules state they cannot be forward of the hip bone during the COF, nothing in the rules states whether they are used or not, so someone could call them on it.

These are contradictory.

No - they are not. Read the rule:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1Yes - which is why quoting and restating - while eating up tons of space on a page, is critical.

Yes they are, read the second part in red, it states the the mags cannot be forward of the hipbone during the COF. The first part is during the COF, but he says "No problem".

[Poppa Bear]

Yes they are, read the second part in red, it states the the mags cannot be forward of the hipbone during the COF. The first part is during the COF, but he says "No problem".

In a technical sense I agree. The COF starts at the command to "Make Ready". The Mag is still in the pocket at the command to "Make Ready" so therefore the shooter should be bumped to open if they retrieve it from their front pocket.

In a realistic sense I disagree and say that having the First Mag, or Barney Mag which is placed back into the front pocket, a little to anal retentive in the rules to bump them into open.

I myself usually wear carpenters jeans so my Barney mag or first mag is placed into the side pocket which is right on the seam. It is hip bone or behind for placement, just 1 foot lower than the belt line. At the end of a COF I will many times place the magazine removed from the gun into that pocket until I get back to my bag to top it off. Dropped mags are carried in my hands back to the bag.

[aztecdriver]

Yes they are, read the second part in red, it states the the mags cannot be forward of the hipbone during the COF. The first part is during the COF, but he says "No problem".

I see what you are saying and far be it for me to interpret what John was intending to say, but here is how I see it. He's already dealt with the question of the time between "Make Ready" and the start signal in his response to question 1. That's clear, no? Now he's answering the question:

3. A production or single stack shooter has a magazine in their front pocket, but never uses it throughout the COF.

Being that throughout is part of the question - it's implied it's after the start signal, having already dealt with the question of between "Make Ready" and the start signal - he's abbreviated the explanation to the term COF because it's implied the start signal has occurred.

If you want to ask him to clarify the question because of his non-specific use of COF against the question of throughout the COF - please feel free.

Again - walk to the line with loaded mags in your ears or down your sleeve if you want. After the start signal they need to be behind the hip bone until "range is clear".

Edited February 26, 2011 by aztecdriver

[Nik Habicht]

How is this different from a production division competitor who loads 11 rounds in his first mag on an unloaded gun start, loads the gun with it, fires nine rounds, reloads, and is moved to open when the RO notices the remaining round in the magazine? (Real life situation -- a friend of mine finished the area match competing in open.) Was that extra round an advantage? It doesn't matter, it's mere presence made the competitor non-compliant with division requirements, and triggered the move to Open under 6.2.5.1.

Good call by that RO! I always count rounds when I'm on the clipboard and someone is shooting Production, but that's pretty amazing that he noticed just one additional round in the magazine.

Not really -- it was an unloaded gun start on a stage that required 9 hits at the first position, back when that was still appropriate. One of the ROs simply looked down at the first magazine ejected from the gun -- and if the shooter had engaged or hit all targets and had a round left in the magazine -- well, easy call....

[Nik Habicht]

At least in USPSA, we get to use pockets... in the current IPSC rules, here is how it reads.

5.2.4. Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices should be carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose, to reduce the risk of loss during a course of fire.

5.2.4.1. For table starts or similar, after the Start Signal, the competitor may carry those items anywhere on their person, and this will not be treated as contravention of Divisional rules.

Although IPSC is a little more forgiving before getting bumped to Open. The RO at least has to direct the shooter to fix the equipment placement first rather than automatically being bumped.

Appendix D4. Special conditions:

18. Neither the handgun, nor any of its attachments, nor the holster, nor any allied equipment, can extend forward of the line illustrated in Appendix F3. Any such items a Range Officer deems not to be in compliance must be safely and promptly adjusted, failing which Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply.

Hmmm... If we want the rule changed for USPSA, we can probably point to the IPSC verbiage in the Appendix as a model. Talk to or email your Area Directors to let them know how you feel.

We already do this -- I've heard multiple RMs give that instruction to their staff. Since they're cognizant that equipment can move while transitioning from stage to stage, one of the best practices for stage staff is to, prior to "Make Ready," do a quick compliance check for competitors shooting in restricted divisions.

As George would say -- it's part of not beating the competitor over the head with the rule book....

[Nik Habicht]

I'm starting to think that the magazine capacity limit should be changed to "11 rounds in the gun at any one time, including the chamber" rather than ten rounds in a magazine.

This would eliminate the bump to open for someone who fails to chamber a round with their 11 round magazine at the MR command, and eliminate the problem for unloaded starts where people forget to take that extra round out of their first mag.

I wonder what people would think. Personally, I don't think it's all that equitable to bump someone to open in that circumstance. The former offers no competitive advantage at all (click on first trigger pull, tap, rack, bang), while the second is a mere technicality.

Competitors are personally responsible for complying with the rules in their division, but it still seems to me that the 'ten rounds in a magazine' could be changed to 'eleven rounds in the gun' without any monumental change in the game, and we could close the unfortunate bump to open for people who screw up.

In the alternative, we could just change the rule to 'ten rounds in the gun,' period, because our game has to be 8 round neutral anyway. That might even be the best answer to this whole thing, although it would result in those used to "shoot ten, reload" having to change their game unless they liked slide lock reloads.

Just some food for thought.

Once upon a time it was ten rounds in the magazine, period. Then a few people got bumped to Open at the 2003 Factory Gun Nationals, and soon thereafter we got the current verbiage....

[Gary Stevens]

I have stated before in classes that I have taught, I don't have x-ray vision and can't be absolutely positive that a mag in the front pocket is actually in front of the hip bone. It could be in the rear of the pocket and be behind the point of the hipbone. Until the time that I do, I will be very cautious about making calls based on something I can't see.

While I fully support the rule, personally I have to be able to look the shooter in the eye and tell them what they did (or didn't do) without any doubt in my mind. The pocket issue is an area that presents doubt to me. Not saying I never would, but I will have to be 100 percent sure where that mag was before I take any action.

Right or wrong, that is my take on it.

[Yardbird]

Was the behind the hipbone thing originally for "real world", "concealment" purposes?

[Nik Habicht]

Was the behind the hipbone thing originally for "real world", "concealment" purposes?

Partly that, and it was part of the differentiation of the division....

[Steven Cline]

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

That, "after the start signal" applies to all of rule 5.2.4. It doesn't disappear for the second sentence.

Unless one is hankering (desperately wanting to with vindictive intent?) to bump someone to Open this is a rather silly discussion.

What ADVANTAGE did the shooter gain by loading from a front pocket on make ready command? NONE!

That would be why the rules guys placed that "after the start signal" in there. After the start signal- there is competitve advantage. Prior to the start signal it's purely administrative.

I think it to our collective benefit to see the forest instead of the trees; the intent instead of the semantical twists.

\

Edited February 27, 2011 by Steven Cline

[mhs]

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

That, "after the start signal" applies to all of rule 5.2.4. It doesn't disappear for the second sentence.\

If you read all of the posts in this topic you'll note that whether it disappears is not clear to some very experienced people.

Unless one is hankering (desperately wanting to with vindictive intent?) to bump someone to Open this is a rather silly discussion.

I'm pretty sure that most, maybe even all of the posters here don't have "vindictive intent", but rather want to figure out the rules and possible arguments at home, rather than on the range.

I think it to our collective benefit to see the forest instead of the trees; the intent instead of the semantical twists.\

It's an RO's job to enforce the rules as written, not to interpret them.

[whitedog]

What he said.....as a new shooter I am still trying to learn something from this thread. I believe start signal is the key word......am I wrong?

[Steven Cline]

If you read all of the posts in this topic you'll note that whether it disappears is not clear to some very experienced people.

I did read all the posts. Including this one very early on from John Amidon who said:

JA:

1. At "Make Ready", a Production shooter pulls a mag with 11 rounds from their front pocket and inserts it into gun and holsters. No problem.

Which is directly in line with the rule I quoted. While I read all the posts, what I don't get is all this desire to penalize a shooter for something that is only a sematical issue.

Unless one is hankering (desperately wanting to with vindictive intent?) to bump someone to Open this is a rather silly discussion.

I'm pretty sure that most, maybe even all of the posters here don't have "vindictive intent", but rather want to figure out the rules and possible arguments at home, rather than on the range.

I said it was a rather silly discussion based on the lack of competitive advantage- unstanding the statement requires the ability to understand what I wrote in it's context.

I think it to our collective benefit to see the forest instead of the trees; the intent instead of the semantical twists.

It's an RO's job to enforce the rules as written, not to interpret them.

Then enforce the rule as it is written- it's not an issue (both per the rule and per John Amidon's opinon) to use a mag from a front pocket before the start signal.

The issue really is this simple: The rule says after the start signal. People have been using mags out of front pockets at the make ready command for years and it hasn't been an issue, nor will it be an issue until some range officer turned range lawyer decides to make case precedent to ignore the "after the start signal" and attempt to bump someone to Open.

If any RO does this at one of my matches they can expect to be overturned and the shooter will not be bumped to Open for pulling a mag from a front pocket to make ready before the start signal; not because of my opinion, but because that is what the rule says (and John Amidon agrees).

That's how I see it until something more official (than the rules and John Amidon's opinon) says differently.

You can call for clarificiation if you like. I don't see the need for it, it's as clear as, "after the start signal." The COF may start with "Make Ready," in the general and umbrella understanding, but in the SPECIFIC situation we are discussin, "after the start signal" directly relates to the situation and holds over the general.

Y'all have fun. But don't worry your pretty heads at one of my matches (and likely many others) about that front pocket mag to load the gun before the start signal.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Steven Cline

[Steven Cline]

... I believe start signal is the key word......am I wrong?

No sir, I believe you understand it correctly- the rule is specific to this situation and holds over the overall rule that a COF starts at the "make ready" command. It's the only logical conclusion to arrive at based on both the rule and John Amidon's response to email inquiry.

[SteveZ]

One thing that I've learned, if you write John you get his opinion but his opinion isn't binding. If you want an official answer, you need to submit your question and get an official ruling by the NROI rules committee.

[twodownzero]

I'm starting to think that the magazine capacity limit should be changed to "11 rounds in the gun at any one time, including the chamber" rather than ten rounds in a magazine.

This would eliminate the bump to open for someone who fails to chamber a round with their 11 round magazine at the MR command, and eliminate the problem for unloaded starts where people forget to take that extra round out of their first mag.

I wonder what people would think. Personally, I don't think it's all that equitable to bump someone to open in that circumstance. The former offers no competitive advantage at all (click on first trigger pull, tap, rack, bang), while the second is a mere technicality.

Competitors are personally responsible for complying with the rules in their division, but it still seems to me that the 'ten rounds in a magazine' could be changed to 'eleven rounds in the gun' without any monumental change in the game, and we could close the unfortunate bump to open for people who screw up.

In the alternative, we could just change the rule to 'ten rounds in the gun,' period, because our game has to be 8 round neutral anyway. That might even be the best answer to this whole thing, although it would result in those used to "shoot ten, reload" having to change their game unless they liked slide lock reloads.

Just some food for thought.

Once upon a time it was ten rounds in the magazine, period. Then a few people got bumped to Open at the 2003 Factory Gun Nationals, and soon thereafter we got the current verbiage....

Thanks for the history lesson. That was a year before I ever shot a match, and many before I ever knew the rules.

Still wondering how that somehow didn't work as well as the new verbiage.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm starting to think that the magazine capacity limit should be changed to "11 rounds in the gun at any one time, including the chamber" rather than ten rounds in a magazine.

This would eliminate the bump to open for someone who fails to chamber a round with their 11 round magazine at the MR command, and eliminate the problem for unloaded starts where people forget to take that extra round out of their first mag.

I wonder what people would think. Personally, I don't think it's all that equitable to bump someone to open in that circumstance. The former offers no competitive advantage at all (click on first trigger pull, tap, rack, bang), while the second is a mere technicality.

Competitors are personally responsible for complying with the rules in their division, but it still seems to me that the 'ten rounds in a magazine' could be changed to 'eleven rounds in the gun' without any monumental change in the game, and we could close the unfortunate bump to open for people who screw up.

In the alternative, we could just change the rule to 'ten rounds in the gun,' period, because our game has to be 8 round neutral anyway. That might even be the best answer to this whole thing, although it would result in those used to "shoot ten, reload" having to change their game unless they liked slide lock reloads.

Just some food for thought.

Once upon a time it was ten rounds in the magazine, period. Then a few people got bumped to Open at the 2003 Factory Gun Nationals, and soon thereafter we got the current verbiage....

Thanks for the history lesson. That was a year before I ever shot a match, and many before I ever knew the rules.

Still wondering how that somehow didn't work as well as the new verbiage.

Those folks got bumped for loading with an 11 round mag, on a loaded gun stage. Advantage? No, but against the division rules.....

[Nik Habicht]

While I read all the posts, what I don't get is all this desire to penalize a shooter for something that is only a sematical issue.

Unless one is hankering (desperately wanting to with vindictive intent?) to bump someone to Open this is a rather silly discussion.

I've watched a couple of friends have to complete matches, including a Nationals and an Area Championship, after being bumped to Open under 6.2.5.1. I can assure you that my interest in this discussion, and my divergent opinion on legality, has nothing to do with any "hankering to bump someone to Open," and a lot more to do with wanting to prevent a recurrence of circumstances that would lead to a move to Open.....

You won't see me shoving a mag in my front pocket while shooting Production -- simply because I don't need the (possible) distraction, and for that matter the match staff doesn't either -- they're busy enough with unavoidable calls....